South Wales 'Metro' updates

[HowardGWR]

The clue to this is in realities. 'Suits' will use train and tube in London along with the 'riff-raff' because there isn't really a better choice; even taxi can be slow. Clearly, there is no intention of the Welsh Government to make Cardiff so unpleasant to access by car that it conforms with the London situation. The same goes for Bristol. Neither city has any plans for congestion charging; they have both invested instead in park and ride (bus). The other measures needed are (a) no OOT office (white collar) development (b) restrict city centre car parking and make it very costly.

 

[Gareth Marston]

So, it would appear that the ‘suits’ don’t wish to travel with everybody else on public transport into central Cardiff? Sounds to me like they had better ensure that a first class section is available on the trams. They could start by making the rear section of the number 6 Baycar for first class passengers only - then the top brass from the Welsh Government offices in Cathays park could travel down to their place in the Bay without having to be with the riff-raff.

an ex colleague of mine use to complain that a Senior HR Person in the Welsh Government would drive to work in Cathays Park even though he lived less than 5 minute walk from Penarth station he knew it was crazy but loved his reserved parking space. Having seen the almost fanatical hysteria that surrounded getting on the ballot for the underground car park at Cathays Park that grips Cardiff Civil Servants you can see why the organization struggles with pubic transport. Many others drive to work for 0700-0730 in order to get nearby parking this then creates a culture of them wanting to do meetings early (as they want to finish early) - you can imagine the hassle this causes for colleagues from Mid and North Wales who cant reach Cardiff Central till 0918 at the earliest!

 

[gareth950]

Deleted

 

[PaulHarding150]

Neither city has any plans for congestion charging

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-43529029

Motorists could be charged for driving into Cardiff as part of plans to cut pollution.

Low emission zones are being looked at by Cardiff council after the Welsh Government told the authority it had to tackle pollution in the city.

Other ideas include a cycle 'super highway', making the city centre into a 20mph zone and introducing a system similar to London's Oyster Cards.

The council is asking people for their views.

 

[gareth950]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-43529029

"The council is asking people for their views" and I can tell the council what the overwhelming response will be.

Any chance of Carwyn Jones and Ken Skates, along with other Welsh Govt ministers, leading by example and giving up their ministerial cars?

 

[HowardGWR]

^^^ Quite.

 

[Del1977]

The clue to this is in realities. 'Suits' will use train and tube in London along with the 'riff-raff' because there isn't really a better choice; even taxi can be slow. Clearly, there is no intention of the Welsh Government to make Cardiff so unpleasant to access by car that it conforms with the London situation. The same goes for Bristol. Neither city has any plans for congestion charging; they have both invested instead in park and ride (bus). The other measures needed are (a) no OOT office (white collar) development (b) restrict city centre car parking and make it very costly.

All those "suits" using a frequent service, without toilets, more times than not having to stand... Could never work in Cardiff...

 

[gareth950]

All those "suits" using a frequent service, without toilets, more times than not having to stand... Could never work in Cardiff...

Depends on what you define as 'frequent' and whether this defined frequency is maintained 7 days a week, including in evenings.

 

[Del1977]

Yes - agree. Personally, I'm the sort of person that is enraged if I arrive at a platform and see the next tube is 4 minutes away or greater.

 

[Envoy]

Plans are being released for a new road from M4 J34 (Miskin) to Cardiff Airport. Such a road would obviously not provide a fast link between Cardiff city centre and the Airport at Rhoose, near Barry.
Allied to this plan, is the creation of a P&R new station on the main line at Miskin - presumably using the loops. That being so, would anybody from the Llantrisant/Cregiau area use a new slow Metro line -that might end up on the streets of central Cardiff when they can go in about 9 minutes from this station non-stop to Cardiff Central? (Pontyclun station also serves the Llantrisant area but lacks a decent car park to meet the demand).

Being as the Airport is also served by the Vale of Glamorgan coast route that links with the mainline at Bridgend and Cardiff Central, I would hardly think that a Miskin station would be any use to the Airport. (All trains stop at Bridgend & Cardiff Central - something that won’t happen at Miskin). What the Vale of Glamorgan Coastline needs is a more frequent service and perhaps a diversion into the Airport.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/plans-revealed-new-m4-link-14515183

Two proposed routes for a new link road between the M4 and the A48 in the Vale of Glamorgan are set to be revealed next week.
The plans for connecting junction 34 of the M4 with the A48 will be unveiled next Monday, April 17 and include a new railway station and park and ride.

 

[PaulHarding150]

Ignore trams and on-street running for a moment.

A conventional station/(large)P&R could work well here with just Maesteg and Manchester services stopping here?

Extra capacity on already full trains is another matter, but one that should be easily resolved.

 

[Envoy]

Yes, I also think that a station at Miskin is a good idea. The odds are that it could be served by the Maesteg trains and maybe the Swansea to Cardiff stoppers. The Manchester to west Wales services - probably not. (Slow train services through to Carmarthenshire & Pembrokeshire are surely inducing people to use road transport. They need faster services - possibly using the Swansea District Line and serving another P&R by the M4 at Morriston).

 

[Del1977]

What capacity is there on the South Wales mainline West of Cardiff for additional trains, or for that matter turning around trains at Cardiff Central from the West? If the Park & Ride ends up being served by hourly (maybe half-hourly in future) Maesteg services and a 1tp2h Swanline service, I can't see it being *that* attractive?

Ideally, it would have 4 tph: 2 from Maesteg and maybe 2 from an enhanced Swanline service?

I wouldn't stop any of the Manchester / London services there. Arguably there's already too many stops between Cardiff and Swansea.

 

[PaulHarding150]

OK, not Manchester services, but local ATW services then - basically the same trains that'll stop at Cardiff Parkway when that opens.

If the station has/could have a bay platform could the Ebbw Vale Services be extended to run to/from it?

I definitely wouldn't stop GWR HST/800 services there.

 

[Del1977]

With the all the talk on the South Wales 'Metro' project, it does appear there's a lack of ambition elsewhere in South Wales. The Vale line issues have already been mentioned heavily in this thread, but not a lot has been said about services on the mainline.

Subject to pathing, here's what I would have done between Swansea and Cardiff/Bristol:

Maesteg -> Ebbw Vale via Cardiff: 2tph

Swansea -> BTM (all shacks service): 2tph, with additional stops on the relief lines at new stations in Cardiff's eastern suburbs. Allowing the Portsmouth / Taunton services to skip out all the smaller halts between Cardiff and Bristol Temple Meads, or withdraw the Taunton services from Cardiff. Ideally this would have been an electric EMU, if electrification had extended beyond Cardiff. Useful for commuting hops / local transport between the three cities.

GWR Swansea - Paddington: As now, though would be tempted to call only at Swansea, Bridgend, Cardiff Central and Newport in South Wales.

Manchester - West Wales: Only to serve Neath/Port Talbot Parkway/Bridgend between Swansea and Cardiff.

 

[MarkyT]

With the all the talk on the South Wales 'Metro' project, it does appear there's a lack of ambition elsewhere in South Wales. The Vale line issues have already been mentioned heavily in this thread, but not a lot has been said about services on the mainline.

Good proposals although I think this comment should really be in the franchise thread under UK Railway Discussions rather than Infrastructure & Stations. I believe the metro topic was tolerated here mainly because of its infrastructure implications.

I wouldn't skip the Neath and Port Talbot calls on the London trains. These are more useful for car based travellers from the broader area to join long distance trains than centrally constrained and parking limited Swansea High Street. If Swansea-London ever went half hourly perhaps trains could call alternately at these stations.

 

[Gareth Marston]

With the all the talk on the South Wales 'Metro' project, it does appear there's a lack of ambition elsewhere in South Wales. The Vale line issues have already been mentioned heavily in this thread, but not a lot has been said about services on the mainline.

Subject to pathing, here's what I would have done between Swansea and Cardiff/Bristol:

Maesteg -> Ebbw Vale via Cardiff: 2tph

Swansea -> BTM (all shacks service): 2tph, with additional stops on the relief lines at new stations in Cardiff's eastern suburbs. Allowing the Portsmouth / Taunton services to skip out all the smaller halts between Cardiff and Bristol Temple Meads, or withdraw the Taunton services from Cardiff. Ideally this would have been an electric EMU, if electrification had extended beyond Cardiff. Useful for commuting hops / local transport between the three cities.

GWR Swansea - Paddington: As now, though would be tempted to call only at Swansea, Bridgend, Cardiff Central and Newport in South Wales.

Manchester - West Wales: Only to serve Neath/Port Talbot Parkway/Bridgend between Swansea and Cardiff.

Aaah I see the lesser not as important "non Core Valley Lines and other lines in South Wales.

This just in from a source in Welsh Government "let the plebs ride Class 150's - I'm off to cause months of traffic jams, disruption and cost overruns with my street running trams in central Cardiff".

Well "by the end of May" will soon be with us and Skates and Co will no longer be able to hide behind general waffle the details will come out (or the whole thing will collapse)

 

[HowardGWR]

Swansea -> BTM (all shacks service): 2tph, with additional stops on the relief lines at new stations in Cardiff's eastern suburbs. Allowing the Portsmouth / Taunton services to skip out all the smaller halts between Cardiff and Bristol Temple Meads, or withdraw the Taunton services from Cardiff. Ideally this would have been an electric EMU, if electrification had extended beyond Cardiff. Useful for commuting hops / local transport between the three cities.

Perhaps it could be just an intensive Cardiff to Bristol emu service. I suspect that the Welsh Government would not be keen. They would be mistaken, but I believe they would see it as one way traffic.

 

[Del1977]

Perhaps it could be just an intensive Cardiff to Bristol emu service. I suspect that the Welsh Government would not be keen. They would be mistaken, but I believe they would see it as one way traffic.

I actually think it would benefit both Cardiff and Bristol.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Perhaps it could be just an intensive Cardiff to Bristol emu service. I suspect that the Welsh Government would not be keen. They would be mistaken, but I believe they would see it as one way traffic.

Graylng has effectively told Welsh Government to F^&* O&^ controlling any service into Bristol.

 

[PaulHarding150]

I actually think it would benefit both Cardiff and Bristol.

It would be massively beneficial. Cardiff is closer to Bristol than Swansea.

Alas the UK Govt are trying to create some grown zone thingy between the two cities, but get shouted down every time Alun Cains (Welsh Secetary) mentions Bristol. https://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/business-news/cardiff-bristol-powerhouse-cairns-14185705

 

[Gareth Marston]

I actually think it would benefit both Cardiff and Bristol.

That's common sense for you but were talking abou Daft and Welsh Government.

 

[Del1977]

Well, I don't think it necessarily needs to be controlled by one or the other city. It can't be beyond the relevant local authorities to work together on this, surely...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well, I don't think it necessarily needs to be controlled by one or the other city. It can't be beyond the relevant local authorities to work together on this, surely...

Crikey, if they can manage the likes of Euregiobahn we should be able to manage a co-operative cross border local service between two countries which only have partial devolution rather than entirely separate Governments.

 

[HowardGWR]

My point was that this would then be totally electric and support the business case for Filton Bank being electrified. I know we all hope that this one is going ahead but the BCR should include that benefit. I liken it to Liverpool to Manchester, now being completed. Eventual 'Extension to Swansea' 's BCR would then be enhanced.

 

[Del1977]

Crikey, if they can manage the likes of Euregiobahn we should be able to manage a co-operative cross border local service between two countries which only have partial devolution rather than entirely separate Governments.

New units could be ordered with LED display panels: While in Wales, they could display the WAG's Bunny logo. It can switch to an image of Clifton Suspension Bridge somewhere under the Severn.

 

[Bletchleyite]

New units could be ordered with LED display panels: While in Wales, they could display the WAG's Bunny logo. It can switch to an image of Clifton Suspension Bridge somewhere under the Severn.

In all seriousness, there are joint ScotRail/Northern services around Carlisle. It's entirely possible if they pack in the silly politics and concentrate on running a train service designed for passengers' travel needs rather than a political pawn.

 

[MarkyT]

My point was that this would then be totally electric and support the business case for Filton Bank being electrified. I know we all hope that this one is going ahead but the BCR should include that benefit. I liken it to Liverpool to Manchester, now being completed. Eventual 'Extension to Swansea' 's BCR would then be enhanced.

Even with bi-modes used for this and other services in the area I think Filton bank and Bristol Temple Meads - Thingley Junction will eventually justify electrification simply because most of the work for structure clearance and signalling immunisation will already have been carried out. Minimising the numbers of places that bi-modes have to switch between modes, especially on the move, is also a good reliability and fuel saving measure and the areas in question are also largely urban so could benefit from reduction in pollution, both from engine emissions and noise. Lastly performance going up the bank could be improved, not so much for the 80xs (at the speeds involved) with their huge underfloor diesels, but for suburban type local trains such as the proposed 769s, where output on diesel mode could be more limited.

 

[PaulHarding150]

I'm posting this here as it's linked to the Metro, although strictly speaking cycling isn't a direct component of it.

Cardiff Council have published their intentions regarding cycle super highways in the city and opened a consultation on one of the proposed routes.

https://www.cardiff.gov.uk/ENG/resi...ravel/cycle-super-highways/Pages/default.aspx

 

[Envoy]

I'm posting this here as it's linked to the Metro, although strictly speaking cycling isn't a direct component of it.

Cardiff Council have published their intentions regarding cycle super highways in the city and opened a consultation on one of the proposed routes.

https://www.cardiff.gov.uk/ENG/resi...ravel/cycle-super-highways/Pages/default.aspx

It would appear that the consultation at the moment only relates to Cycling Superhighway 1 - first phase. Looking at the map of all the proposed ‘Cycling Superhighways’, I note that the one going out to the new development areas to the NW (Plasdwr), appears to show that it will follow the alignment of the former single track railway that went out to Cregiau. It should be noted that this is the so called protected route for a new ‘Metro’ line into this area - coming off the City Line just N of Fairwater station. Should this become a cycleway and it later transpire that it will become a railway, then I can see trouble ahead - similar to that taking place now regarding the Bath to Bristol cycleway.

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/bike-group-disappointed-idea-put-1185685

A South West Transport Network spokesman David Redgewell said there are only two options available for an eastern metro route – run a tram on tracks next to the cycle path or spend millions building underground tube-style tunnels under the east of the city.

While Sustrans says it supports the creation of a metro system to link Bristol and Bath, it claims the cycle path – which was part of the former Midland Railway line – is not appropriate