South Wales 'Metro'

Discussion in 'Infrastructure & Stations' started by Envoy, 2 Jul 2015.

  1. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    I'm not convinced Cardiff is enough of a "public transport city" to justify premium flats with no parking facilities whatsoever...that'll put a severe kibosh on their value...
     
  2. Cardiff123

    Cardiff123 Member

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    Don't worry, the vast majority of the flats will be just one bedroom. I doubt very much that any of the flats will have UK owners. It's a private equity paradise.
    The amount of money in brown envelopes that must have changed hands between Cardiff Council, Welsh Govt, and cash hungry property developers for this entire scheme isn't worth thinking about.
     
  3. uxm

    uxm On Moderation

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    According to wales online, MTR would've built a new train station at the Pontypridd bus station if they won the franchise.
     
  4. Gareth Marston

    Gareth Marston Established Member

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    Well that's the choice the Carwyn Jones led Labour Welsh Government has made over the last 8 years. South Wales voted to leave the EU with tv clips of valleys folk saying its done nothing for them not realizing that it was the Welsh Government who by and large choose what to spend the money on. They could have chosen to use the 2007 to 2019 round of EU funding to electrify the Valley Lines/ create the Metro but choose not to we could have had Transport for Wales taking over a new suburban commuter network around Cardiff not trying to create one.

    Anyway looking forward the people who would be Carwyns successor have gone on the record about their view on the M4 Relief Road Vuaghan Gethin and Eluded Morgan support it however the frontrunner Mark Drakeford gave a very non committal answer and made reference to the Welsh Government Sustainable Futures Act- I suspect if enough people say No at the Assembly on the free vote promised he will go with their decision without being seen to come off fence.

    The future stages of the Metro will then stand a chance of happening and more so if they finally wake up to the money pit the heads of the valleys dualing has become - hopefully the current row with the contractors about severe cost overuns will make them think.
     
  5. krus_aragon

    krus_aragon Established Member

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    That'll be from this article, I presume?

     
  6. uxm

    uxm On Moderation

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    Yes, it's quite interesting how different MTR's bid may be but we will never know unless they dialcoe the info. There was a definite plan for 4 car HST sets on the Premier service , different trains in general , Stadler was not their preferred bidder.
     
    Last edited: 8 Nov 2018
  7. krus_aragon

    krus_aragon Established Member

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    I think your autocorrect may have done a Freudian slip there :D
     
  8. uxm

    uxm On Moderation

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    I really believe that building a station at the Pontypridd bus station is a waste of money and time the main station is within walking distance and a bus already takes you to the station makes sense why they lost the big I believe KeolsAmey has a lot more knowledge on what to use as Keolis is a global operator. In 2016 keolis pledged to transform the welsh network if they won the franchise. It's clear KeolisAmey offered a far superior bid.
     
  9. Gareth Marston

    Gareth Marston Established Member

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    I said so before the franchise was awarded and I've seen nothing since to convince me otherwise but the Core Valley Lines is a bodge up driven more by the desire to wrestle the control of something from Westminster than by other considerations. However Keolis Amey have done a good job in retaining through links where they can and rejecting the whackier Light Rail fanatic wishes of street running in Cardiff. But any extensions that then make it a full South Wales Metro not just a conversion of what lines that are left have clearly been sacrificed on the alter of the big road schemes refereed to up thread.
     
  10. MarkyT

    MarkyT Established Member

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    The bus and rail stations at Pontypridd are a good half mile apart at opposites ends of the main commercial area. So both convenient for the town centre today I agree, but definitely not ideal for interchange, especially if you have to wait for an extra local bus to get between the two by which time you may miss the longer distance train/bus you were aiming for and and have to wait for the next one. In most cases it would be quicker to walk. With fast accelerating tram-based electric units, another station half a mile from the existing site would not add significantly to journey time, and the railway simply couldn't be closer to the bus station site. As to construction, the former railway alignment here was once wider so perhaps track could be slewed over a little to create space for a northbound platform and the existing pedestrian path bridging under the railway from the bus station to Lanpark Road might be used for access, avoiding the need for an expensive new grade separated accessible bridge or subway.
    pontipridd.jpg
     
  11. uxm

    uxm On Moderation

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    I live in Pontypridd and gave my view.
     
  12. Meerkat

    Meerkat Member

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    Help me out....why do the trains have to go to the buses?
    Can’t all the buses go via the train station, if necessary by going through the bus station and doing an extra loop before having a rest?
     
  13. uxm

    uxm On Moderation

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  14. uxm

    uxm On Moderation

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    They already do on the way to the bus station so it's pointless. I really see why MTR Lost now the probably had very unnecessary proposals.
     
  15. Gareth Marston

    Gareth Marston Established Member

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    All water under the bridge now but heres my take on it.

    MTR had a lot of crayon ideas even extending to rural areas plus the degree of light rail fantastic they wanted around Cardiff there wasn't the budget for. The bid was to far out.
    Arriva sat down and thought do we want another 15 years dealing with the Welsh Government with no chance of making much £ and decided they had better things to do.
    Abeilo were very confident of wining with a bid that ticked the right boxes with Welsh Government until they found out they had no construction delivery partner.
    Kelois put in a pragmatic bid.
     
  16. WatcherZero

    WatcherZero Established Member

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    The light rail network being built is designed for on street lines to plug in in future, there simply wasn't the money to build any street running in the near term and the short street running extension to the new terminus is proof of concept/tech development for future lines.
     
  17. uxm

    uxm On Moderation

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    Keolis is one of the if not the best metro network operator, they operate the largest tram network in the world and are a global company, the Welsh Government have clearly made the right decision. MTR clearly did not have enough knowledge and did not offer a suitable bid.
     
  18. uxm

    uxm On Moderation

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    No MTR wanted light rail even in Ebbw Vale and Maesteg, their plans were ludicrous.
     
  19. Cardiff123

    Cardiff123 Member

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    Except a light rail network is not being built. The Valley lines are being wired up to 25 kV AC and will be using Network Rail standard heavy rail infrastructure. The only thing that's changing is on the Taff Vale lines 'train-trams' will be used. Rhymney is staying HR with Stadler Flirts.

    Again, ask yourself, why were all of the future extensions detailed in those EIA maps released in January abandoned indefinitely? Why wasn't there the money for a full Metro, including electrification up to Ebbw Vale and through the Vale of Glamorgan, when over £2.5bn can be found for big, show-piece road schemes?
    Welsh Govt even want to use PFI for the last section of the A465 dualling, when PFI has been binned by even the UK govt.
    I wonder sometimes if UK and Welsh Labour are within the same political party.
     
  20. uxm

    uxm On Moderation

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    Yes, it is, it was a requirement for the franchise to build on on-street light rail extension to The Flourish for future expansion of the metro network. The Tram-Trains will eventually have more lines. The Merthyr and Rhondda lines will be served by Light Rail Vehicles which are the CityLinks.
     
  21. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    What were the rural plans (e.g. Conwy Valley)?
     
  22. Gareth Marston

    Gareth Marston Established Member

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    Can you tell us where the extension from the The Florish will be to? Its more or less at the Bays edge surrounded by the buildings its suppose to serve:?:

    On street running in Cardiff City Center as has pointed out by many people many times on this thread is hugely expensive and counterproductive - the existing heavy rail stops actually serve the city very well on the alignments their on. Cardiff City Centre is compact nowhere is really more than a 10 minute walk from Georgetown/Ninian Park/Central/Queen St/ Bay/ Cathays Park.

    On street tram running gains you very little at the expensive of a lot.
     
  23. Gareth Marston

    Gareth Marston Established Member

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    Its all kicked into the long grass - Maesteg is staying hourly- there's no way if the Carwynite road schemes go ahead theres any chance of funding extensions on the so called Metro for a decade plus. There's stuff being postponed now* because of the ongoing row with Costain over the current section of the A465 project being massively over budget (though they wont admit it in public).

    * building a new bridge to repalce a 18th Century PackHorse road bridge over the River Dyfi at Machynlleth which is carrying an A road (A487) & HGV's.
     
  24. Cardiff123

    Cardiff123 Member

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    You've failed to understand me. Search for Rhodri Clark's articles in Modern Railways and look for articles in RAIL magazine about the new franchise and Metro since June.
    We will have hybrid metro vehicles, that have been described by the commercial director of KA as more like train-trams than tram-trains, operating on the existing, but upgraded, heavy rail infrastructure. HR signalling is remaining in use.
    The only new, light rail section that is being 'built' is 300 metres on-street in the Bay. That can hardly be called a new light rail network. All future extensions have been postponed indefinitely, until the money is available to build them, which as Gareth Marston has said, don't stand a chance of happening for decades if Carwyn's legacy road schemes go ahead.
     
  25. PaulHarding150

    PaulHarding150 Member

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    The only new section of the network signed off is the 300m or so extension in the Bay. If you refer to that as light rail then you'll need to refer to everything from the Bay up to Merthyr, Aberdare and Treherbert as light rail. Passengers won't - as far as passengers are concerned they'll still be taking the train to work, the shops or the rugby.

    The requirement of the franchise bids was to include an element of on street running - presumably as both a trail and to ensure any new rolling stock procured in the next five years would be compatible with, hypothetically running in front of Cardiff Castle and down St Mary Street. The element KA suggested and has been agreed will essentially be a level crossing at Hemmingway Road. Personally I think that's ridiculous and it would make far more sense to close that road and send traffic up/down Bute Steet and Lloyd George Avenue to do a u turn rather than have traffic mix with 12 tram-train things an hour. But if the government want interaction between cars and (tram)trains that's what they shall have.

    Everything else so far has been a suggestion not a policy - some suggested by civil servants, some by enthusiastic rail people and some by TOCs. At some point, yes the network will probably be expanded further.
     
  26. Cardiff123

    Cardiff123 Member

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    And when and possibly if the network ever gets expanded further depends very much on what happens after March next year (eg. Brexit), who wins the current Welsh leadership race, and if Welsh Govt can finally move away from seeing big road schemes as 'vote winners' and actually improve public transport that will make a tangible difference to the economy, people's everyday lives and the environment.
    It's not just about the 'Core Valleys' either. Ebbw Vale, Vale of Glamorgan, Maesteg should all be next for electrification and upgrades before we start experimenting with tramways in the upper Valleys.
    Not forgetting the 'Swansea Bay Metro' and 'straightening' the SWML between Swansea and Cardiff, as well as electrification Cardiff - Swansea.
     
  27. PaulHarding150

    PaulHarding150 Member

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    Couldn't agree more, the Metro is most defiantly about more than 'The Bay to Queen Street and up' The Ebbw Vale Line for example should be being electrified now. 1/3rd of the journey from Cardiff to Ebbw Vale is on the GWML so electrifying the rest of it should be a given.

    I'm in a slight minority on this site in that I see the need to improve the M4 and to build the Eastern Bay link road as well as improving rail/lightrail links. Transport infrastructure both public and private have been ignored for far too long in Wales.
     
  28. oglord

    oglord Member

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    Because it was implemented in a ridiculous political Cardiff-centric way.
     
  29. uxm

    uxm On Moderation

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    Right in front of the Millenium centre the network will expand further.
     
    Last edited: 9 Nov 2018
  30. Cardiff123

    Cardiff123 Member

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    Says who? Link to a source please?
     

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