South Wales 'Metro' updates

[Pete_uk]

Class 166s will see 2+2 seating except where the coolant tank is which has to stay

How would a coolant tank prevent 2+3 seating being removed?

 

[JamesT]

How would a coolant tank prevent 2+3 seating being removed?

Because it’s in the passenger space underneath the seats. It’s going to stick out if you don’t have the seats there, so you might as well keep the seats and use the space.

 

[Aictos]

Because it’s in the passenger space underneath the seats. It’s going to stick out if you don’t have the seats there, so you might as well keep the seats and use the space.

Exactly, that's why that part of the train will keep it's 2+3 seating but all the other seating will be 2+2.

 

[PHILIPE]

How would a coolant tank prevent 2+3 seating being removed?

How would a coolant tank prevent 2+3 seating being removed?

What have GWR Turbos got to do with the South Wales Metro ?

 

[krus_aragon]

A single Citylink set has a capacity of 386 which means that they will operate with a capacity of 772 when merged.

Your way off there -The Transport for Wales slide show at the launch gave the following -

Each Stadler LRV vehicle has 257 max capacity with 129 seats.

It appears uxm mistakenly added those two figures to get a figure of 386.

 

[Gareth Marston]

It appears uxm mistakenly added those two figures to get a figure of 386.

Good spot.

 

[Gareth Marston]

View attachment 55361

The capacity is listed above and has been sourced from this document: https://tfw.gov.wales/sites/default/files/inline-files/Detailed Briefing.pdf

They will be coupled as 6 cars which are 80 metres long and on off-peak times they will remain as 3 car metro vehicles.

No - the same document you refer to on Page 33 specifically shows that Peak Capacity on the Pontypridd to Cardiff corridor is 6939 which when you divide by the given total capacity of a City Link of 257 =27. The peak is defined as 0730 to 0900 and at 12 tph means 18 services in 90 minutes so 27 units divided by 18 is 1.5 - so its abundantly clear that only every second service will be doubled up in the peak.

https://tfw.gov.wales/sites/default/files/inline-files/Detailed Briefing.pdf

Another reality check is to look at the number of units (36) if there all doubled up you've then only got an absolute maximum of 18 diagrams to run 15 minute frequencies on 3 different lines?

 

[Gareth Marston]

As for the Class 315s, they were too be used until new stock arrives and were not intended to stay for a long period of time. These would not have voided the tram-trains as they have been a requirement for the Rhondda and Merthyr lines since electrification was proposed. Class 319s converted to 769s are being taken on instead of 315s as a stop-gap and will run on the Rhymney line.

Whats your source for this as your understanding of why Wales are getting 769 Flex's is severely out of kilter with the truth?
The 769 Flex's were most certainly not procured to be used as a stopgap instead of 315's!

I'm sure others will wade in with much venom at this attempt to re write history!

 

[Cardiff123]

As for the Class 315s, they were too be used until new stock arrives and were not intended to stay for a long period of time. These would not have voided the tram-trains as they have been a requirement for the Rhondda and Merthyr lines since electrification was proposed. Class 319s converted to 769s are being taken on instead of 315s as a stop-gap and will run on the Rhymney line.

Electrification of the Valleys and Vale of Glamorgan was first proposed in 2012 as complete heavy rail electrification of the whole region. Trams didn't start being talked about until 2015.
Maybe do your research before posting here and try going back through this thread and reading it, as everything you post as 'news' was already discussed at length in the Spring/Summer this year in this thread (and other now locked threads on the W&B franchise which are still available to read).

Whats your source for this as your understanding of why Wales are getting 769 Flex's is severely out of kilter with the truth?
The 769 Flex's were most certainly not procured to be used as a stopgap instead of 315's!

I'm sure others will wade in with much venom at this attempt to re write history!

Let's just ignore them.

 

[S-Bahn]

Suffice to say Tram-Trains or Train-Trams are not the answer for the valley lines network. If they are talking about a Cardiff wide service e.g. St Mellons and other areas that don't already have fast public transport links to the central hub then I'm all for that.

The proposal seems to be based on a vanity project of their being a tram stop closer to the Senedd. I find it highly unlikely that there will be extensions for street running at the heads of the valleys.

And for most users of the network, they want to get on a train at a time that works for them i.e. allows them to get to work at a certain time or make their connection at Cardiff Central. They are not going to hang around hoping the next tram has some space on it.

Also, if the tram-train system means that more services from RCT will head to Cardiff Bay rather than Central, that is completely ignoring the fact that so many new offices are opening up around Queen Street and Central. What then? People having to change and cross platforms at Queen Street to get to Central? Thanks a bunch!

I would much rather they use 4 car EMU's for the Valley lines and if need be convert the Queen Street to Cardiff bay branch line into a tram-train line into the bay.

 

[Cardiff123]

Also, if the tram-train system means that more services from RCT will head to Cardiff Bay rather than Central, that is completely ignoring the fact that so many new offices are opening up around Queen Street and Central. What then? People having to change and cross platforms at Queen Street to get to Central? Thanks a bunch!

That's exactly what's going to happen, so anyone from the Valleys wanting to go direct to Central won't be getting any increase per hour of services. The initial result may be the direct Cardiff Central services being quite overcrowded and the Bay services running under capacity.

 

[krus_aragon]

I'm sure others will wade in with much venom at this attempt to re write history!

I'll wade in, but hopefully without venom.

As for the Class 315s, they were too be used until new stock arrives and were not intended to stay for a long period of time.

This is correct. Lower the price of electrification down to an acceptable level by using secon-hand stock, and when passenger numbers increase due to the "sparks effect", the business case for new stock is much easier to make. (230s for the Borderlands is a similar strategy.)

These would not have voided the tram-trains as they have been a requirement for the Rhondda and Merthyr lines since electrification was proposed.

Here's where you've made a leap too far. Tram-trains are part of the Metro vision the Welsh Government have worked on since 2015, but prior to that (and the arguments over who'd be funding it) it was very much a heavy-rail project, as far back as 2012.

As a new member of the forum, you probably won't be aware of the discussions had at the time. You can have a look on these two threads to get an idea of what was talked about and expected back then.

Class 319s converted to 769s are being taken on instead of 315s as a stop-gap and will run on the Rhymney line.

Technically correct, but the 315s were already out of the frame once the new Metro approach had been decided. And the 769s were originally ordered to cover PRM mods from 2018 onwards as opposed to operate the newly electrified Rhymney line (which would have been the purpose of the 315s).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Exactly, that's why that part of the train will keep it's 2+3 seating but all the other seating will be 2+2.

Is it going to be 2+2 in the manner of the middle coach of Merseyrail 507s pre-refurb or the Thameslink Cityflyer 319s, i.e. just removing the third seat but keeping the existing ones the same? Or new seats?

 

[Brissle Girl]

And for most users of the network, they want to get on a train at a time that works for them i.e. allows them to get to work at a certain time or make their connection at Cardiff Central. They are not going to hang around hoping the next tram has some space on it.

Also, if the tram-train system means that more services from RCT will head to Cardiff Bay rather than Central, that is completely ignoring the fact that so many new offices are opening up around Queen Street and Central. What then? People having to change and cross platforms at Queen Street to get to Central? Thanks a bunch!

I would much rather they use 4 car EMU's for the Valley lines and if need be convert the Queen Street to Cardiff bay branch line into a tram-train line into the bay.

So under the proposals, there will be as many services down from RCT to Central as today. In addition there will the same number again going as far as Cathays and Queen St and then onto the Bay. So no reduction in frequency for those that want Central, and a doubling of frequency for those going to Queen St and Cathays (and from there it will be a short hop to Central as well). The doubling of frequency down the Taff Vale will also mean much less overcrowding on services, and make it much more likely that times will be convenient for getting to/from work will minimal waiting time.

That will be a massive improvement on today's service, with brand new rolling stock too. 12 tph down from Pontypridd compared with 6 now, and as little as 2tph 40 years ago for those of us with long memories. The carping of some on this forum sounds like children on being told they are flying to Disneyland for a two week holiday complaining that they would "much rather" have flown business class and it be a three week holiday. Well yes, that would be very nice, but money isn't unlimited, and what you're getting is pretty damn good.

 

[S-Bahn]

That's exactly what's going to happen, so anyone from the Valleys wanting to go direct to Central won't be getting any increase per hour of services. The initial result may be the direct Cardiff Central services being quite overcrowded and the Bay services running under capacity.

Not to mention a significant increase in passenger throughput on Platforms 2,3 and 4 at Queen St with RCT and Rhymney valley passenger having to switch trains to get to Central or the Bay respectively!

For example - RCT southbound service to the Bay arrives on platform 3 with Bay passengers waiting on the platform. Cardiff Central passengers exit the tram and bay passengers get on. Central Passengers head down the stairs, along the tunnel and onto Platform 4 when a busy Rhymney valley train pulls in. Some passengers disembark and head over to Platform 3 for the Bay or out of the exit. The Central passengers then board and continue on one stop to their destination.

This makes no sense. The recent redevelopment assumed the majority of the passengers disembarking were heading straight out of the main entrance, not needing to change platforms.

Sounds like it will make rush hour considerably worse. Would be so much easier to just increase the capacity of the trains on the existing timetable, make the Queen St - Cardiff Bay a tram train service and double track the line to the Flourish.

 

[S-Bahn]

So under the proposals, there will be as many services down from RCT to Central as today. In addition there will the same number again going as far as Cathays and Queen St and then onto the Bay. So no reduction in frequency for those that want Central, and a doubling of frequency for those going to Queen St and Cathays (and from there it will be a short hop to Central as well). The doubling of frequency down the Taff Vale will also mean much less overcrowding on services, and make it much more likely that times will be convenient for getting to/from work will minimal waiting time.

That will be a massive improvement on today's service, with brand new rolling stock too. 12 tph down from Pontypridd compared with 6 now, and as little as 2tph 40 years ago for those of us with long memories. The carping of some on this forum sounds like children on being told they are flying to Disneyland for a two week holiday complaining that they would "much rather" have flown business class and it be a three week holiday. Well yes, that would be very nice, but money isn't unlimited, and what you're getting is pretty damn good.

The increase in capacity you refer to assumes that the replacement Tram-Trains will have an equal or greater capacity that the existing trains. More frequent trains isn't what commuters need on the RCT lines, it's longer one for the reasons i gave previously.

I don't see the relevance of what the service was 40 years ago, except of course to indicate the changing nature of employment in the UK resulting in more people commuting to offices in the big hub cities. Sure if I'd been born in the 30's I'd be down the pit in Porth with my Grandfather, but today I work in an office with a computer on my desk.

It also has to be assumed that future demand will be even higher given the number of offices being built particularly around Cardiff Central. Most of the platforms are ready for 6 coach trains, so again more units can be added in the future going from 4 to 6 if the demand is there.

Not sure what the logic is behind your final assertion. No-one is asking for a 1st class carriage on the valley lines, but I don't think a toilet (which the trams won't have) is too much to ask in the 21st century.

 

[uxm]

Suffice to say Tram-Trains or Train-Trams are not the answer for the valley lines network. If they are talking about a Cardiff wide service e.g. St Mellons and other areas that don't already have fast public transport links to the central hub then I'm all for that.

The proposal seems to be based on a vanity project of their being a tram stop closer to the Senedd. I find it highly unlikely that there will be extensions for street running at the heads of the valleys.

And for most users of the network, they want to get on a train at a time that works for them i.e. allows them to get to work at a certain time or make their connection at Cardiff Central. They are not going to hang around hoping the next tram has some space on it.

Also, if the tram-train system means that more services from RCT will head to Cardiff Bay rather than Central, that is completely ignoring the fact that so many new offices are opening up around Queen Street and Central. What then? People having to change and cross platforms at Queen Street to get to Central? Thanks a bunch!

I would much rather they use 4 car EMU's for the Valley lines and if need be convert the Queen Street to Cardiff bay branch line into a tram-train line into the bay.

The Rhymney Line is already going to be using 4 car and 3 car Stadler FLIRT Tri-Modes whilst they have opted for tram-trains of the former Taff Vale Railway lines. It's stated in the presentation that the new service"Maintains all existing connections to Queen Street and Central"Source: https://tfw.gov.wales/sites/default/files/inline-files/Detailed Briefing.pdf

 

[uxm]

So under the proposals, there will be as many services down from RCT to Central as today. In addition there will the same number again going as far as Cathays and Queen St and then onto the Bay. So no reduction in frequency for those that want Central, and a doubling of frequency for those going to Queen St and Cathays (and from there it will be a short hop to Central as well). The doubling of frequency down the Taff Vale will also mean much less overcrowding on services, and make it much more likely that times will be convenient for getting to/from work will minimal waiting time.

That will be a massive improvement on today's service, with brand new rolling stock too. 12 tph down from Pontypridd compared with 6 now, and as little as 2tph 40 years ago for those of us with long memories. The carping of some on this forum sounds like children on being told they are flying to Disneyland for a two week holiday complaining that they would "much rather" have flown business class and it be a three week holiday. Well yes, that would be very nice, but money isn't unlimited, and what you're getting is pretty damn good.

I heavily agree with you, It's a massive improvement, this article shows why 'light rail' was needed: https://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/business-opinion/south-wales-metro-needs-based-9774875 Also, don't be under the impression 'light' rail means light trains, Trams are actually quite heavy and it's based on shorter individual carriage lengths and a bogie configuration designed for articulation for street running.

 

[S-Bahn]

The Rhymney Line is already going to be using 4 car and 3 car Stadler FLIRT Tri-Modes whilst they have opted for tram-trains of the former Taff Vale Railway lines. It's stated in the presentation that the new service"Maintains all existing connections to Queen Street and Central"Source: https://tfw.gov.wales/sites/default/files/inline-files/Detailed Briefing.pdf

So why not go for 4 car FLIRT's for the RCT lines using the existing timetable and just use a tram-train shuttle from Queen Street's bay platform to The Flourish, as well as focusing efforts on expanding a tram network to cover the parts of East and West Cardiff that don't currently have a train service?

I really can't stress enough the flaw in using short trams and increasing the frequency to compensate.

That assumption is that passengers are indifferent about when they travel (as the cost of the ticket is identical irrespective of time of travel) and passengers will just spread themselves out over the additional trams, reaching a new equilibrium.

Any sensible modelling would show that passengers have "revealed preferences" in that they have specific times when they want to travel, largely dictated by what time they have to be in work/at college/make a connection at Central.

Also those trams will not have toilets. We all know what will start happening late on a Friday and Sat night and after a big event at the Principality stadium. I hope TFW have factored in regular deep cleaning costs into their models.

 

[Envoy]

It is not just all the office blocks going up near the Central station that mean the greater number of passengers from the RCT valleys would surely prefer a direct service here rather than the Bay; the Central station is also the main interchange for long distance trains. I also note that in summer, significant numbers of people travel from the central valleys down to Barry Island - something they can do on direct trains at present - equipped with toilets for what is quite a long journey - often with kids.

I note a desire by Cardiff Council build a conference centre in the Bay. I contend that a better site for this would be the vacant land on the south side of Callaghan Square - within easy walking distance of the Central station for easy dispersal of people to trains heading in different directions. Should this be built in the Bay, then the tram-train system is likely to be overwhelmed with a sudden surge of people resulting in many of them having to make the significant walk up to Cardiff Central.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I'll wade in, but hopefully without venom.

This is correct. Lower the price of electrification down to an acceptable level by using secon-hand stock, and when passenger numbers increase due to the "sparks effect", the business case for new stock is much easier to make. (230s for the Borderlands is a similar strategy.)

Here's where you've made a leap too far. Tram-trains are part of the Metro vision the Welsh Government have worked on since 2015, but prior to that (and the arguments over who'd be funding it) it was very much a heavy-rail project, as far back as 2012.

As a new member of the forum, you probably won't be aware of the discussions had at the time. You can have a look on these two threads to get an idea of what was talked about and expected back then.

If the Welsh Government didn't have such a bad relationship with the Westminster coalition Government from 2010 to 2015 we might have got some movement on this associated with CASR being completed but the window of opportunity was lost. Valleys stakeholders complained about getting second hand trains then the "Metro" idea got floated about with shiny new things and the whole lot got sidelined on we want shiny new and the alter of party politics.

 

[oglord]

I note a desire by Cardiff Council build a conference centre in the Bay. I contend that a better site for this would be the vacant land on the south side of Callaghan Square

I won’t be built in either of those places, because the WAG and Celtic Manor got together and are building it in Newport.

 

[uxm]

So why not go for 4 car FLIRT's for the RCT lines using the existing timetable and just use a tram-train shuttle from Queen Street's bay platform to The Flourish, as well as focusing efforts on expanding a tram network to cover the parts of East and West Cardiff that don't currently have a train service?

I really can't stress enough the flaw in using short trams and increasing the frequency to compensate.

That assumption is that passengers are indifferent about when they travel (as the cost of the ticket is identical irrespective of time of travel) and passengers will just spread themselves out over the additional trams, reaching a new equilibrium.

Any sensible modelling would show that passengers have "revealed preferences" in that they have specific times when they want to travel, largely dictated by what time they have to be in work/at college/make a connection at Central.

Also those trams will not have toilets. We all know what will start happening late on a Friday and Sat night and after a big event at the Principality stadium. I hope TFW have factored in regular deep cleaning costs into their models.

The RCT lines are more of a network; the light rail network will consist of 5 lines: The Merthyr line (including the Aberdare branch line), Rhonddha line, City line and the Butetown branch lime to create a much more effective metro system that will be a lot more integrated with the use of light rail with much higher frequencies rather than longer trains.

The Rhymney line is a direct line which consists of much steeper gradients. The batteries on the LRVs are not sufficient to allow it to go through the Caerphilly tunnel as they are less powerful. I am optimistic that the Welsh government have thought this through and have offered the best solution.

 

[Cardiff123]

I won’t be built in either of those places, because the WAG and Celtic Manor got together and are building it in Newport.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/masterplan-revealed-new-15000-capacity-15392858

It was confirmed last Sunday that the site of the current Red Dragon entertainment complex has been chosen for the new venue. It was all over Welsh news that day.
I know we live in the era of 'fake news' but this thread is starting to get silly.......

 

[Gareth Marston]

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/masterplan-revealed-new-15000-capacity-15392858

It was confirmed last Sunday that the site of the current Red Dragon entertainment complex has been chosen for the new venue. It was all over Welsh news that day.
I know we live in the era of 'fake news' but this thread is starting to get silly.......

Perhaps we need to rename the thread.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The RCT lines are more of a network;

at the moment there joined to the Penarth and Vale of Glamorgan lines as a cross city link as per International best practice.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I am optimistic that the Welsh government have thought this through and have offered the best solution

Is this meant to be

1. Sarcastic?
2. Provocative?
3. You work in Communications in the Welsh Government?
4. All of the above?
5. Serious?

 

[krus_aragon]

I'm sure they (WG) will have offered what they believe is the best solution. Not everyone agrees with them, of course.

 

[uxm]

I would also like to point out the fact that electrification is only until Ystrad Mynach and the charging range on the CityLinks are 4 miles whilst they are 40 miles on the FLIRTs. Source:

"Rhymney Line trains will switch to battery power north of Ystrad Mynach." " The tri-modes, which will not be able to run on-street, are expected to have a battery charge range of around 40 miles.".

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/business-news/you-need-know-800m-worth-15034625

 

[Aictos]

What have GWR Turbos got to do with the South Wales Metro ?

It was in answer to this post:

Whilst I am pleased to see the new Hitachi Inter City Express Trains enter service, I note that trains to be used on the Cardiff > Bristol > Bath > Salisbury > Southampton > Portsmouth route will see a downgrade from 158’s to old Thames Turbo commuter trains (165/6’s). Whilst these will offer more seats (jammed in as 5 across) and become 5 coach trains, they are hardly the wonderful trains that one would expect to link these major cities and induce traffic off the roads.
Likewise, Cross Country will no doubt continue to use inadequate 2 or 3 coach 170’s on the Cardiff > Newport > Gloucester > Birmingham > Nottingham route. These will be even more overcrowded (& slower) once the new Worcester Parkway station opens.( At one time, south Wales had direct Inter City Trains that continued to the north-east).

Is it going to be 2+2 in the manner of the middle coach of Merseyrail 507s pre-refurb or the Thameslink Cityflyer 319s, i.e. just removing the third seat but keeping the existing ones the same? Or new seats?

No idea until it happens, I'm sorry so your guess is as good as mine!