South Wales 'Metro' updates

[Brissle Girl]

Deleted.

 

[Envoy]

I have just posted this on the Great Western Electrification thread:>

I see that the masts and horizontal beams have now been inserted on platform 4 at Cardiff Central. Surely, it would have made sense for the horizontal beams to have been long enough to also cover the neighbouring Platform 6 as it is the intention to have the south Wales Valleys lines electrified to 25Kv? So, it looks like that when the local lines are electrified that money will be wasted having to put masts up on Platform 6 instead of just using those now in place on Platform 4.

You would think that the Welsh Government/Transport for Wales and Network Rail could have co-operated over this matter to save costs/disruption.
See post 8598:>https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/great-western-electrification-progress.83452/page-287

 

[Cardiff123]

I have just posted this on the Great Western Electrification thread:>


You would think that the Welsh Government/Transport for Wales and Network Rail could have co-operated over this matter to save costs/disruption.
See post 8598:>https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/great-western-electrification-progress.83452/page-287

The Valleys platforms (6 - 8) at Central are not being electrified. The TfW/NR boundary will be just after the Bay line junction after Queen St.

 

[Dai Corner]

The Valleys platforms (6 - 8) at Central are not being electrified. The TfW/NR boundary will be just after the Bay line junction after Queen St.

Do we know how power is going to be fed to the Valley Lines? Surely they're not going to the expense of a separate feeder station?

 

[Envoy]

The Valleys platforms (6 - 8) at Central are not being electrified. The TfW/NR boundary will be just after the Bay line junction after Queen St.

What! I find that incredible. So with no over bridges to shift and it being the hub of the whole system and in the centre of a city, we are going to have trains running on diesel - or maybe battery?. The limit of Transport for Wales infrastructure might well be Queen Street (north thereof) but where does it kick in again regarding the City Line? Nininan Park? Waungron? Radyr?

I would also have thought it worthwhile for the triangle at Canton to have been electrified so that the GWR Class 387 electric only trains could be flipped around in the case of a fault in the leading cab when they come to Cardiff as crowd busters.

I also note that a large electricity feeder station has been built at Canton. Is a lot of this now surplus to requirements if it is not being connected to the Valley Lines Network and with the main line to Swansea not now going to be electrified? If so, then how much money will have to be spent building a separate feeder station for the Valleys? A waste of resources?

 

[Cardiff123]

Do we know how power is going to be fed to the Valley Lines? Surely they're not going to the expense of a separate feeder station?

It wouldn't surprise me if they did. Welcome to the joined up world of the UK's rail network, where artificial political boundaries are more important than the practicalities.

What! I find that incredible. So with no over bridges to shift and it being the hub of the whole system and in the centre of a city, we are going to have trains running on diesel - or maybe battery?. The limit of Transport for Wales infrastructure might well be Queen Street (north thereof) but where does it kick in again regarding the City Line? Nininan Park? Waungron? Radyr?

The City Line is being transferred to TfW between Ninian Park and Radyr, so will be electrified as far as Ninian Park.
There's nothing stopping Queen St - Central - Ninian Park being electrified but that will be up to NR and the DfT, not Welsh Govt and TfW. Do you think the DfT will care when all of the trams will be electric/battery and the trains electric/battery/diesel?

 

[MarkyT]

While electrification of the Valleys platforms is desirable in the long term, I'd guess TfW don't absolutely need the wires through Cardiff Central immediately, as both the planned Flirts and Citylinks can run through the area on battery. I suspect all parties are very keen to keep electrification of this part of the station OUT of the expensive GW main contract, but there's no reason future wires here, and indeed the broader valleys electrification scheme, could not be connected up to the NR main feeder substation. Once the GW project is finished and the dust has settled, TfW could make a future agreement with NR to extend wires through Central, and maybe even on to Barry and elsewhere, but probably using their own more economic methods, materials and their contractors, by then looking for some more work having completed the TfW controlled parts of the Valleys. The beauty of the discontinuous electrification technique is that TfW don't have to complete everything before the new trains can be introduced. Extending wiring further, progressively in the future can still make sense however as it should increase range, resilience and battery life, and with bi-modes diesels, can reduce engine hours (thus extending servicing intervals and reducing maintenance cost). If Amey prove they CAN do cost effective electrification on the Valleys Metro, then it would make a lot of sense for DfT, TfW and NR to allow them to carry on with some more work in South Wales. It is not neccessary for more infrastructure to transfer to direct TfW control to allow this.

 

[PaulHarding150]

The Valleys platforms (6 - 8) at Central are not being electrified. The TfW/NR boundary will be just after the Bay line junction after Queen St.

I know the Welsh Government keep talking about "The Core Valley Lines" being everything north of Queen Street and The Bay, but I think any normal person would assume, that includes platforms 6-8 at Central (after all Valley Line trains still use Platform 4).

I don't have a source for my assumption that 6-8 will be wired, do you have a source for your statement that 6-8 won't be wired?

 

[Cardiff123]

I know the Welsh Government keep talking about "The Core Valley Lines" being everything north of Queen Street and The Bay, but I think any normal person would assume, that includes platforms 6-8 at Central (after all Valley Line trains still use Platform 4).

I don't have a source for my assumption that 6-8 will be wired, do you have a source for your statement that 6-8 won't be wired?

I don't have source to hand, but I've read literally every possibly article about the Valley lines and the Metro since Keolis Amey were announced as the winner last June.
There are numerous articles online. I've read articles from RAIL magazine, Modern Railways, www.transportxtra.com and many others. Just Google "Core Valley lines electrification", "South Wales Metro", "Keolis Amey Wales and Borders franchise" under the Google news tab going back to last June and you're bound to find something.

The TfW/NR ownership boundary will be just south of Queen St (possibly the bridge where the Valleys cross the mainline) and NR are not electrifying anything in South Wales outside of what's specified in the GW scheme.
Of course we all know it makes perfect sense for NR to do infill electrification for the Valleys/Cardiff local lines between Queen St - Central - Ninian Park and all the lines around Canton, but when have the DfT ever been sensible when it comes to electrification?
In one of the many articles that I've read it definitely mentioned that platforms 6 - 8 at Central are not bring electrified. The tram-trains will use batteries and the Stadler Flirts will run on diesel through Central.

 

[PaulHarding150]

In one of the many articles that I've read it definitely mentioned that platforms 6 - 8 at Central are not bring electrified. The tram-trains will use batteries and the Stadler Flirts will run on diesel through Central.

Well the Canton Depot is definitely going to be modified to include wires so it would be a bloody weird set up to have the wires stop at Queen Street then start again in Cnaton!

 

[Dr Day]

I was under the impression TfW (the authority) wanted the Core Valleys network as operationally independent from Network Rail as possible, hence would desire as simple an interface as possible at the asset boundaries.
Given NR I believe own Canton, isn't a new depot being built at Taffs Well for the new electric/hybrid vehicles?
Excuse my ignorance, but is Canton being electrified as part of the GW project or the Core Valleys modernisation project?

 

[Cardiff123]

I was under the impression TfW (the authority) wanted the Core Valleys network as operationally independent from Network Rail as possible, hence would desire as simple an interface as possible at the asset boundaries.
Given NR I believe own Canton, isn't a new depot being built at Taffs Well for the new electric/hybrid vehicles?
Excuse my ignorance, but is Canton being electrified as part of the GW project or the Core Valleys modernisation project?

A new depot at Taffs Well for the Taff Vale tram-trains, along with a 'Metro control centre', although it's unclear at the moment if the signalling for the Valleys will be transferred to there from the Wales Rail Operating Centre in Canton, where as part of the Cardiff Area Signalling Renewal in 2016/17 it was all upgraded, renewed and centralised, with new signalling workstations installed for the Valleys and the Vale of Glamorgan.

We are to assume that any electrification at Canton will be as part of the GW electrification project, as TfW & Keolis Amey will not be allowed to touch NR infrastructure (without permission).

 

[MarkyT]

I was under the impression TfW (the authority) wanted the Core Valleys network as operationally independent from Network Rail as possible, hence would desire as simple an interface as possible at the asset boundaries.
Given NR I believe own Canton, isn't a new depot being built at Taffs Well for the new electric/hybrid vehicles?
Excuse my ignorance, but is Canton being electrified as part of the GW project or the Core Valleys modernisation project?

Taffs Well will be for the Citylink tram-train vehicles. The site drawing submitted for planning shows tight curves in the yard forming a loop that could not be negotiated by FLIRT vehicles, so I can only assume these will be maintained and stabled at Canton. As all the FLIRTs are independently powered by some means, they might access the depot without wires although I would have thought there will be at least a short section of overhead line available within the depot yard for testing on AC as provided at the Hitachi depot in Swansea.

 

[MarkyT]

A new depot at Taffs Well for the Taff Vale tram-trains, along with a 'Metro control centre', although it's unclear at the moment if the signalling for the Valleys will be transferred to there from the Wales Rail Operating Centre in Canton, where as part of the Cardiff Area Signalling Renewal in 2016/17 it was all upgraded, renewed and centralised, with new signalling workstations installed for the Valleys and the Vale of Glamorgan.

I think introducing a signalling control centre boundary between Central and Queen Street would be ludicrous, when these areas have been combined on one panel or workstation for decades. I expect Taffs Well to be service, crew and fleet control rather than signalling, which should, and hopefully will, remain at the WROC.

We are to assume that any electrification at Canton will be as part of the GW electrification project, as TfW & Keolis Amey will not be allowed to touch NR infrastructure (without permission).

While it must be a NR administrated or overseen project clearly, I think it will likely not be run directly by the current GW electrification project organisation, which I think many people feel needs to be wound up ASAP once its revised outcomes have been achieved. Some isolated work in the depot might be carried out by the TfW infrastructure partner, clearly with some cooperation from landowner NR. As I suggested earlier, the Valleys electrification team that will be set up under Keolis Amey will be well placed to pick up further low cost infill and extension work on behalf of NR, once its outputs have been completed on the core Valleys network.

 

[Cardiff123]

I'd highly recommend buying the May issue of Modern Railways magazine, out now. It has a special feature section written by Welsh rail journalist Rhodri Clark, telling you virtually everything you need to know (that's in the public domain so far) about the Metro, Core Valley lines modernisation and the new franchise in general.

Among other things, it confirms that there will be no electrification between Ninian Park - Central - Queen St for Valleys lines & local services, saying that the Stadler Citylink Metro vehicles will run on batteries through this section.

It also confirms that signalling control for the 'Core Valley lines' north of Queen St (Treherbert/Aberdare/Merthyr/City line/Coryton/Rhymney) will transfer from Network Rail's WROC in Canton to TfW's new "South Wales Metro integrated control centre" in Taffs Well.

 

[vikingsmb]

with the maesteg line, does anyone with inside knowledge of network rail have any idea what they are going to do with the tondu to margam line?

 

[MarkyT]

I'd highly recommend buying the May issue of Modern Railways magazine

I'll get a copy next time I'm out.

It also confirms that signalling control for the 'Core Valley lines' north of Queen St (Treherbert/Aberdare/Merthyr/City line/Coryton/Rhymney) will transfer from Network Rail's WROC in Canton to TfW's new "South Wales Metro integrated control centre" in Taffs Well.

I'm assuming this includes Queen Street station. I am very surprised and find it counter-intuitive to introduce a signalling control boundary where there has been none for decades right at the very heart of the network. Moving the Taffs Well control area further south to also include just the metro platforms at Central wouldn't make sense either, as then the control boundary would be right in the middle of the west end junction complex. The workstations are, and the previous control panels were, already divided into separate main and valleys sections, so it would make more sense to relocate the entire valleys workstation including Central and beyond down the VOG into Taffs Well, but I guess that's also impossible because NR would still be doing maintenance on those sections and they probably don't want to have different companies coordinating different aspects of the operations and engineering. So lets have a big boundary right in the middle the whole show instead! Not a wise move operationally in my opinion. Alternatively, to make service regulation easier, it might be better if Queen Street could remain in WROC, with the new boundary located on each branch in simple plain line sections to the north, but then TfWs flagship Cardiff Bay branch with its proposed street-side extension would be under NR control.

Lack of OHLE (for now) at Central for metro is not a problem at all with the traction solutions proposed. As I said earlier, once the industry has better control of wiring cost, additional infill areas like this on NR infrastructure could be possible.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Any news on the TFW commitment to "provide ticket machines at all South Wales Metro stations by April 2019"? I was back home in the valleys at the start of the month and saw no change. I seriously doubt it has changed in the last 3 weeks or so?

 

[tomuk]

I am very surprised and find it counter-intuitive

The whole metro is complete nonsense infrastructure is all heavy rail apart from one small extension down Bute Place in the bay. So tram trains a complete waste. But as with anything WAG/TfW counter-intuitive is the watch word.

 

[Tom Quinne]

A new depot at Taffs Well for the Taff Vale tram-trains, along with a 'Metro control centre', although it's unclear at the moment if the signalling for the Valleys will be transferred to there from the Wales Rail Operating Centre in Canton, where as part of the Cardiff Area Signalling Renewal in 2016/17 it was all upgraded, renewed and centralised, with new signalling workstations installed for the Valleys and the Vale of Glamorgan.

We are to assume that any electrification at Canton will be as part of the GW electrification project, as TfW & Keolis Amey will not be allowed to touch NR infrastructure (without permission).

Signalling of the Core Valleys will transfer initially from Aberconyon and Radyr in 2021.
Rhumney Valley Signalling will transfer from SWCC at some point.....

Canton shed won’t get any wire, although it will be significantly overhauled to maintain the new train fleets.

Taff Wells Depot will have wires and a feeder station.

 

[Tom Quinne]

I'll get a copy next time I'm out.

I'm assuming this includes Queen Street station. I am very surprised and find it counter-intuitive to introduce a signalling control boundary where there has been none for decades right at the very heart of the network. Moving the Taffs Well control area further south to also include just the metro platforms at Central wouldn't make sense either, as then the control boundary would be right in the middle of the west end junction complex. The workstations are, and the previous control panels were, already divided into separate main and valleys sections, so it would make more sense to relocate the entire valleys workstation including Central and beyond down the VOG into Taffs Well, but I guess that's also impossible because NR would still be doing maintenance on those sections and they probably don't want to have different companies coordinating different aspects of the operations and engineering. So lets have a big boundary right in the middle the whole show instead! Not a wise move operationally in my opinion. Alternatively, to make service regulation easier, it might be better if Queen Street could remain in WROC, with the new boundary located on each branch in simple plain line sections to the north, but then TfWs flagship Cardiff Bay branch with its proposed street-side extension would be under NR control.

Lack of OHLE (for now) at Central for metro is not a problem at all with the traction solutions proposed. As I said earlier, once the industry has better control of wiring cost, additional infill areas like this on NR infrastructure could be possible.

Signalling control from the TfW/NWR boundaries at a point between Queen St and Central (on the twin track incline), and a point after Ninian Park South Junction will remain in SWCC Valleys desk, this will include Central plat 6/7/8.

Signalling control of the lines north of the boundaries will move in phases starting in 2021 to Taff Wells IECC, this will include QS and the Valley area of the Cardiff Valleys SWCC workstation.

 

[Tom Quinne]

with the maesteg line, does anyone with inside knowledge of network rail have any idea what they are going to do with the tondu to margam line?

Booked out of use until further notice, rumour has it that it’ll remain so until Tondu SB is recontrolled to SWCC in CP6 (maybe).

 

[S-Bahn]

The whole metro is complete nonsense infrastructure is all heavy rail apart from one small extension down Bute Place in the bay. So tram trains a complete waste. But as with anything WAG/TfW counter-intuitive is the watch word.

I agree. Losing the toilets on the trains is a huge mistake for starters.

I really can't get enthusiastic around the project. If the proposals included plans to re-open numerous stations on the existing lines and to have new branch lines into places like Hiwaun, Abertillery and other towns and villages which are crying out for a rail link to Cardiff/Newport/Swansea etc, I would be persuaded by the use of tram-trains. Instead the whole thing is a bodge on the cheap and only gives the Welsh Assembly the "prestige" of having Trams in Cardiff Bay.

 

[Cardiff123]

I agree. Losing the toilets on the trains is a huge mistake for starters.

I really can't get enthusiastic around the project. If the proposals included plans to re-open numerous stations on the existing lines and to have new branch lines into places like Hiwaun, Abertillery and other towns and villages which are crying out for a rail link to Cardiff/Newport/Swansea etc, I would be persuaded by the use of tram-trains. Instead the whole thing is a bodge on the cheap and only gives the Welsh Assembly the "prestige" of having Trams in Cardiff Bay.

The idea is that those extensions will come in future - after Brexit crashes the economy, and after the Welsh Govt has blown it's entire borrowing capacity budget for the next few decades on the M4 and other eye wateringly expensive road projects (see the Heads of the Valleys road)

 

[Dai Corner]

I agree. Losing the toilets on the trains is a huge mistake for starters.

I really can't get enthusiastic around the project. If the proposals included plans to re-open numerous stations on the existing lines and to have new branch lines into places like Hiwaun, Abertillery and other towns and villages which are crying out for a rail link to Cardiff/Newport/Swansea etc, I would be persuaded by the use of tram-trains. Instead the whole thing is a bodge on the cheap and only gives the Welsh Assembly the "prestige" of having Trams in Cardiff Bay.

But what about those thousands of people from the Valleys who are dying to visit Cardiff Bay but can't figure out how to change at Queen Street or are unable to walk the last couple of hundred metres?

 

[Envoy]

Deleted.

 

[Brissle Girl]

I agree. Losing the toilets on the trains is a huge mistake for starters.

I really can't get enthusiastic around the project. If the proposals included plans to re-open numerous stations on the existing lines and to have new branch lines into places like Hiwaun, Abertillery and other towns and villages which are crying out for a rail link to Cardiff/Newport/Swansea etc, I would be persuaded by the use of tram-trains. Instead the whole thing is a bodge on the cheap and only gives the Welsh Assembly the "prestige" of having Trams in Cardiff Bay.

Remember we are getting a doubling of frequency on the Rhondda Cynon Taff routes, brand new stock, electrification, redoubling of some single track lines. And the trams will be heavy rail rather than light rail. I think some parts of the UK would be very happy to get that sort of investment and improvement. So a lot to be enthusiastic about.

 

[MarkyT]

I agree it's an overall benefit, and after a bit of a think I'm now seeing at least the proposed signalling control boundaries are in simple plain track areas, albeit busy areas. A means by which the new centre could take virtual control of the areas remaining on NR's SWCC Valleys Desk is by controlling real time train planning and thus being able to influence the list of route setting commands being introduced to the automatic route setting (ARS) system. There have been examples of this before. One that springs to mind was at Old Oak Common depot where the yard controller had a real time console map onto which they could interpose a number of special train describer headcodes at the yard exit signals that would be acted upon by Slough's ARS in a predefined way to work empty stock into Paddington. The idea was the system was able to automatically match the departure platform of the scheduled train the stock was for, even if that had been reallocated at the station by Slough IECC (which the yard controller wouldn't know or shouldn't care about), and which, even if the system got it wrong, is inevitable anyway; whichever platform the automation puts the stock in, that's where the train is going to have to depart from even if that's sub-optimal in a broader sense, or someone's got to re-plan.

Applied to the Valleys as part of a more sophisticated system-wide train planning and control desk at Taffs Well, such an approach could result in SWCC signallers rarely having to intervene at all in running the Valleys desk, at least as far as TfW services are concerned, as Taffs Well would be able to accomplish effective control by sending the realtime list of route setting commands. If they wanted to short turn or reroute at short notice, they should be able to do this without contacting the signaller. For engineering and other safety concerns, the NR SWCC signaller could reassert full control at any time by turning off ARS subareas, or replacing signals in an emergency. SWCC would continue to control the phones and cab radios within their area, although the valleys trains and tram-trains will also have to be able to communicate with Taffs Well when on TfW infrastructure, with a secondary channel for service and fleet control issues at all times.

 

[Tom Quinne]

I had a look at the boundaries last night, they tie into the Cardiff Central/Queen Street interlocking boundaries so making a signalling spilt at this point would be easier than somewhere else.

Taff Wells IECC will be a new version of the SWCC Valleys workstation, all Signallers based at Radyr and Aberconyn are to transfer to TfW in Sept 2019 with actual movement to Taff Wells in 2021 when the IECC is built.

The idea is for Core Valleys to stand alone once all senses from the Mainline and NWR.

 

[MarkyT]

I had a look at the boundaries last night, they tie into the Cardiff Central/Queen Street interlocking boundaries so making a signalling spilt at this point would be easier than somewhere else.

Common practice is to try and get interlocking boundaries in simple plain track areas so that makes sense.

Taff Wells IECC will be a new version of the SWCC Valleys workstation, all Signallers based at Radyr and Aberconyn are to transfer to TfW in Sept 2019 with actual movement to Taff Wells in 2021 when the IECC is built. The idea is for Core Valleys to stand alone once all senses from the Mainline and NWR.

Well that explains why these older, albeit processor-based locations, never moved into SWCC earlier, as they were bound to be centralised somewhere at some point. The Rhymney line is all on SWCC already though, so that, along with Queen St. - Cardiff Bay will have to be removed from the original Valleys desk, which I assume was originally sized to be able to take over all the Valleys branches eventually. Assuming the same manufacturer (Is is Hitachi?) for the new workstations, some highly intelligent link ups between the control centres could be hooked up to allow the TfW centre to take over all day to day train planning of the entire Valleys service network and input these as real time data for the NR ARS+ to interpret, as I suggested earlier.