South Wales 'Metro' updates

[S-Bahn]

Remember we are getting a doubling of frequency on the Rhondda Cynon Taff routes, brand new stock, electrification, redoubling of some single track lines. And the trams will be heavy rail rather than light rail. I think some parts of the UK would be very happy to get that sort of investment and improvement. So a lot to be enthusiastic about.

Well:-

1. The doubling of frequency involves services being directed to Cardiff Bay. Last time i checked most of the offices and workplaces that people are commuting to aren't in Cardiff Bay, nor are the connecting services to the rest of Wales/the UK.
2. The plans focus entirely on trams in Cardiff Bay, rather than adding new stations in the valleys.
3. Losing the toilet is pretty important and worth raising. Or are you going to volunteer to pressure wash and disinfect the interiors every Sunday eve? Trust me the late night Friday and Sat night crowds will be making a mess.
3. "some sort of investment and improvement" - When carrying out long term investment, why not do it properly and with the necessary robustness to withstand 30 years of service and not doing it on the cheap to win the contract from the WAG.

IMHO what should have happened was:-

1. Electrify to Swansea, including the VOG line and Maesteg Line. Budget allowing I'd even go as far as Carmarthen to allow electric running of TFW services along the South Wales corridor.
2. Buy some decent standardised 4 coach electrics for use on the Valley Lines, Maesteg and Ebbw Vale Services and 4 coach Bi-modes for services between Carmarthern and North-Wales/Manchester.
3. Use tram-trains for the separate line from Cardiff Queen Street to Cardiff Bay to keep the WAG happy and their demands for street level running in the Bay.

 

[Cardiff123]

There will be 'toilet stops' on the last trains up the Valleys on Friday and Saturday nights to allow people to relieve themselves.

 

[S-Bahn]

There will be 'toilet stops' on the last trains up the Valleys on Friday and Saturday nights to allow people to relieve themselves.

I hope they are installing some Thermal hydrolysis reactors. The commuters from Porth could provide enough electricity to power the whole network and enough fertiliser to eliminate imports for our farmers.

 

[Brissle Girl]

Well:-

1. The doubling of frequency involves services being directed to Cardiff Bay. Last time i checked most of the offices and workplaces that people are commuting to aren't in Cardiff Bay, nor are the connecting services to the rest of Wales/the UK.
2. The plans focus entirely on trams in Cardiff Bay, rather than adding new stations in the valleys.
3. Losing the toilet is pretty important and worth raising. Or are you going to volunteer to pressure wash and disinfect the interiors every Sunday eve? Trust me the late night Friday and Sat night crowds will be making a mess.
3. "some sort of investment and improvement" - When carrying out long term investment, why not do it properly and with the necessary robustness to withstand 30 years of service and not doing it on the cheap to win the contract from the WAG.

IMHO what should have happened was:-

1. Electrify to Swansea, including the VOG line and Maesteg Line. Budget allowing I'd even go as far as Carmarthen to allow electric running of TFW services along the South Wales corridor.
2. Buy some decent standardised 4 coach electrics for use on the Valley Lines, Maesteg and Ebbw Vale Services and 4 coach Bi-modes for services between Carmarthern and North-Wales/Manchester.
3. Use tram-trains for the separate line from Cardiff Queen Street to Cardiff Bay to keep the WAG happy and their demands for street level running in the Bay.

Cathays and Queen St gives decent access to the majority of offices and workplaces (particularly shops), though admittedly the new(ish) development around Callaghan Square is better served by Central. But even if you don't fancy a quick change at Queen St, you'll have the same number of services, they'll be faster, and overall capacity down the valleys will be much improved, which has been the main concern of passengers for many years.

Your suggestions (particularly 1 and 2) are likely to be well over the budget that the WG could afford. We can all dream up utopian ideas when we're not paying, but ultimately there's only so much money to go around.

 

[johnnychips]

There will be 'toilet stops' on the last trains up the Valleys on Friday and Saturday nights to allow people to relieve themselves.

How will that work?

 

[Cardiff123]

How will that work?

The tram-train, train-tram, Metro vehicle, (whatever they'll be officially called) will stop at key stations along the route with toilets, for a set time to let people go off and relieve themselves. Then it'll leave hoping they've not left anyone behind..........

The idea the rest of the time is that during the day people can get off at most stations to use the toilet as they'll have no longer than 15 minutes to wait for the next service to carry on their journey.

 

[johnnychips]

If the toilet has 4 urinals and two cubicles - and that’s what Doncaster platforms 4-8 has, not sure what the capacity of the Wales toilets is planned to be - and 30 people got off to use it, that’s at least five minutes. I’m sure some would just use the platform wall, especially if they’ve been drinking. Also I wouldn’t like to see the state of the floor afterwards. Doncaster also has a set of cleaners who effectively clean up mess and put cubicles and urinals out of use if necessary. Will these stations be staffed?

 

[Cardiff123]

Will these stations be staffed?

At 11pm on a Saturday night?
I don't know the answer to that, TfW do seem to be making an effort to do things differently to 'do the absolute minimum' attitude we had from Arriva, so maybe contracted out private cleaners will be employed on weekend late nights at stations with toilets.

 

[Dai Corner]

At 11pm on a Saturday night?
I don't know the answer to that, TfW do seem to be making an effort to do things differently to 'do the absolute minimum' attitude we had from Arriva, so maybe contracted out private cleaners will be employed on weekend late nights at stations with toilets.

Perhaps those cleaners will lay out a line of buckets on the platform to speed up the process, emptying them and mopping up any spillage before clocking off? The whole system sounds most uncivilised.

 

[S-Bahn]

Cathays and Queen St gives decent access to the majority of offices and workplaces (particularly shops), though admittedly the new(ish) development around Callaghan Square is better served by Central. But even if you don't fancy a quick change at Queen St, you'll have the same number of services, they'll be faster, and overall capacity down the valleys will be much improved, which has been the main concern of passengers for many years.

Your suggestions (particularly 1 and 2) are likely to be well over the budget that the WG could afford. We can all dream up utopian ideas when we're not paying, but ultimately there's only so much money to go around.

There is "plenty of money to go around". It's not a fixed commodity like gold. It's created every second by computers every time someone wants a mortgage or a credit card.

There is also a massive difference between borrowing for investment and borrowing for consumption. Massively improved railway infrastructure will result in higher revenues due to the increase in passengers wanting to use the service. So the investment will pay for itself as well as providing jobs in the supply chains.

 

[Dai Corner]

There is "plenty of money to go around". It's not a fixed commodity like gold. It's created every second by computers every time someone wants a mortgage or a credit card.

There is also a massive difference between borrowing for investment and borrowing for consumption. Massively improved railway infrastructure will result in higher revenues due to the increase in passengers wanting to use the service. So the investment will pay for itself as well as providing jobs in the supply chains.

The Welsh Government has limited borrowing powers and no money creation powers. They have also cut Income tax. I would disagree that there is 'plenty of money to go round'.

 

[Brissle Girl]

The Welsh Government has limited borrowing powers and no money creation powers. They have also cut Income tax. I would disagree that there is 'plenty of money to go round'.

Exactly. It’s also worth remembering that the sums already quoted for investment in trains and infrastructure (around £750m each) are eye-wateringly high in the context of the welsh population bearing in mind that transport spending is devolved. Try multiplying them by 20 to put that as a comparison to a similar investment in the uk as a whole.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Perhaps those cleaners will lay out a line of buckets on the platform to speed up the process, emptying them and mopping up any spillage before clocking off? The whole system sounds most uncivilised.

Surely the contents of these buckets could be carefully collected - and following Tyneside tradition (one gathers) , used to good effect on leek patches.

 

[Dai Corner]

Surely the contents of these buckets could be carefully collected - and following Tyneside tradition (one gathers) , used to good effect on leek patches.

Perhaps an enterprising Stationmaster could bottle it and sell it to commuters keen to win vegetable growing competitions?

 

[S-Bahn]

The Welsh Government has limited borrowing powers and no money creation powers. They have also cut Income tax. I would disagree that there is 'plenty of money to go round'.

Exactly. It’s also worth remembering that the sums already quoted for investment in trains and infrastructure (around £750m each) are eye-wateringly high in the context of the welsh population bearing in mind that transport spending is devolved. Try multiplying them by 20 to put that as a comparison to a similar investment in the uk as a whole.

Yes, the Welsh Government doesn't own it's own bank and has limits on borrowing. That's a political decision taken in Westminster. The UK government has it's own bank (Bank of England), it's own currency, control of interest rates and it's debt' denominated in it's own currency.

The current electrification schemes are being carried out by Network Rail. If it wanted to, Westminster could ask the Bank of England to create the money to extend the electrification programme and the money could be created and deposited into Network Rails' accounts in a few minutes. It's really that simple.

The BOE created £435 billion of new money in the QE programme and no-one bat an eyelid. They could equally create new money as part of an infrastructure fund and carry out significant improvements to the UK's rail network. An investment that would yield results in terms of new passengers using the network and less pollution, and the investment would pay for itself, so it's not money down the drain.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Perhaps an enterprising Stationmaster could bottle it and sell it to commuters keen to win vegetable growing competitions?

Target audience the "greens" and eco-warriors of Rhiwbina (Garden Villiage) !

 

[Bald Rick]

The tram-train, train-tram, Metro vehicle, (whatever they'll be officially called) will stop at key stations along the route with toilets, for a set time to let people go off and relieve themselves. Then it'll leave hoping they've not left anyone behind..........

The idea the rest of the time is that during the day people can get off at most stations to use the toilet as they'll have no longer than 15 minutes to wait for the next service to carry on their journey.

Do the good folk of the valleys have a particular bladder problem that is not experienced by people who use most of London’s suburban rail services?

 

[Brissle Girl]

Yes, the Welsh Government doesn't own it's own bank and has limits on borrowing. That's a political decision taken in Westminster. The UK government has it's own bank (Bank of England), it's own currency, control of interest rates and it's debt' denominated in it's own currency.

The current electrification schemes are being carried out by Network Rail. If it wanted to, Westminster could ask the Bank of England to create the money to extend the electrification programme and the money could be created and deposited into Network Rails' accounts in a few minutes. It's really that simple.

The BOE created £435 billion of new money in the QE programme and no-one bat an eyelid. They could equally create new money as part of an infrastructure fund and carry out significant improvements to the UK's rail network. An investment that would yield results in terms of new passengers using the network and less pollution, and the investment would pay for itself, so it's not money down the drain.

That’s hardly within the control of the welsh government though, so they have to do what they can within their remit and affordability. And if you haven’t noticed, the UK Govt is hardly pro-electrification at the moment, having cancelled Swansea, Sheffield etc. And if it does change it’s tune, I suspect Carmarthen, Maesteg etc would be well down its shopping list of schemes, especially having devolved responsibility to the WG.

 

[Dai Corner]

Do the good folk of the valleys have a particular bladder problem that is not experienced by people who use most of London’s suburban rail services?

They do have a reputation for consuming large quantities of alcoholic liquor on Friday and Saturday nights and when Wales are playing rugby.

 

[Dai Corner]

That’s hardly within the control of the welsh government though, so they have to do what they can within their remit and affordability. And if you haven’t noticed, the UK Govt is hardly pro-electrification at the moment, having cancelled Swansea, Sheffield etc. And if it does change it’s tune, I suspect Carmarthen, Maesteg etc would be well down its shopping list of schemes, especially having devolved responsibility to the WG.

Quite.

Schemes involving spending more than already committed on the railways of Wales are probably best discussed in the Speculative Ideas forum.

 

[Bald Rick]

They do have a reputation for consuming large quantities of alcoholic liquor on Friday and Saturday nights and when Wales are playing rugby.

I can assure you that happens in London too! (And not only when Wales are playing Rugby).

 

[S-Bahn]

Quite.

Schemes involving spending more than already committed on the railways of Wales are probably best discussed in the Speculative Ideas forum.

The original electrification plans were to go all the way to Swansea and the valleys, Maesteg and Ebbw Vale to be fully electrified.

It's been sidelined because it's now being done on the cheap and the WAG were sold on the idea of trams in the Bay.

So it's relevant to the discussion.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I can assure you that happens in London too! (And not only when Wales are playing Rugby).

"Environmental determinism" - organisms mutute to the ongoing circumstances. Quoted in terms of the peppered month , in L+SE and elsewhere , drinkers have aclimmatised to available facilities.

In looking after a fairly volatile bit of North London back in the day , "on train issues" were amazingly very low. For 313's / 117's with no toilets.

However , when the 319's came into service , and fitted with CET equipment , it was quickly arranged for a more thorough "Pump out" programme to allow for weekend traffic requirements.

 

[Brissle Girl]

The original electrification plans were to go all the way to Swansea and the valleys, Maesteg and Ebbw Vale to be fully electrified.

It's been sidelined because it's now being done on the cheap and the WAG were sold on the idea of trams in the Bay.

So it's relevant to the discussion.

As said earlier, if you think a project that translates to around £30Bn if we were looking at this in a UK context is cheap then I’m not sure what planet you are on. Besides, it’s not part of the current project, so why clutter up this thread endlessly going over what might have been. It isn’t going to change anything. Best focus here on watching the developments of what is actually going to happen maybe?

 

[S-Bahn]

As said earlier, if you think a project that translates to around £30Bn if we were looking at this in a UK context is cheap then I’m not sure what planet you are on. Besides, it’s not part of the current project, so why clutter up this thread endlessly going over what might have been. It isn’t going to change anything. Best focus here on watching the developments of what is actually going to happen maybe?

Please clarify what the £30 billion relates to. The estimated cost of electrifying to Swansea was in the region of £400 million.

Given the present challenges to TFW and their commitments in 2019, I'm not very optimistic about the future of this franchise and their ability to deliver.

 

[Llanigraham]

Yes, the Welsh Government doesn't own it's own bank and has limits on borrowing. That's a political decision taken in Westminster. The UK government has it's own bank (Bank of England), it's own currency, control of interest rates and it's debt' denominated in it's own currency.

The current electrification schemes are being carried out by Network Rail. If it wanted to, Westminster could ask the Bank of England to create the money to extend the electrification programme and the money could be created and deposited into Network Rails' accounts in a few minutes. It's really that simple.

The BOE created £435 billion of new money in the QE programme and no-one bat an eyelid. They could equally create new money as part of an infrastructure fund and carry out significant improvements to the UK's rail network. An investment that would yield results in terms of new passengers using the network and less pollution, and the investment would pay for itself, so it's not money down the drain.

Sorry, but you obviously have no understanding of Government spending requirements or how that money is raised, or the relationship between NR, Westminster, and the Welsh Government.

 

[Llanigraham]

The original electrification plans were to go all the way to Swansea and the valleys, Maesteg and Ebbw Vale to be fully electrified.

It's been sidelined because it's now being done on the cheap and the WAG were sold on the idea of trams in the Bay.

So it's relevant to the discussion.

Again you do not appear to understand the relationship between Westminster and WAG.

 

[S-Bahn]

Again you do not appear to understand the relationship between Westminster and WAG.

Not at all. I'm aware that the cancellation of the project was by the DfT. Rather than work to overturn it or try and get it into NR's next control period, the WAG have ducked out and gone for trams in the bay and diesel operations west of Cardiff.

This is a serious missed opportunity for Wales. As it is for other regions where electrification won't be happening.

 

[Llanigraham]

Not at all. I'm aware that the cancellation of the project was by the DfT. Rather than work to overturn it or try and get it into NR's next control period, the WAG have ducked out and gone for trams in the bay and diesel operations west of Cardiff.

This is a serious missed opportunity for Wales. As it is for other regions where electrification won't be happening.

You clearly do not understand the relationship between the 2 Governments, particularly in respect of finance and spending.

 

[Brissle Girl]

Please clarify what the £30 billion relates to. The estimated cost of electrifying to Swansea was in the region of £400 million.

You've asserted that the project is being done on the cheap. The infrastructure (almost completely SW Metro) and rolling stock is costing around £1.5Bn (roughly 50/50), and has to be fully funded by the Welsh Government. For a Welsh Government project this is a huge amount of money. My comparison is with a similar project done by the UK Government. With a population of around 20x, the equivalent sort of project for the UK would cost £30Bn.

You quote £400m to get to Swansea. Add on the other lines on your wish list, and increase the rolling stock costs by having more as you suggest, and making them bi-modes (with increased running costs which almost certainly outweigh the benefit from running on AC as far as Newport - remember these trains will be going as far as Manchester and Holyhead) will add how much to the bill? Probably end up closer to an extra £1Bn, so from £1.5Bn to £2.5Bn. Using my 20x multiplier now makes that a £50Bn project. Yes you can argue as to whether that's a realistic comparison, but the fact is that whichever way you look it's already a huge investment, and simply to pick up the bill where the UK government has dropped out is unrealistic.

I'm sure you'll come back again, but I'll leave my case there, other than to ask that this thread focuses on what is going to happen, not what might have been and isn't.