South Wales 'Metro' updates

[Envoy]

Many thanks Paul (above). Looks like the seats look pretty good. I just hope that they release design details for comment before signing any contracts in order to gauge public opinion.

 

[krus_aragon]

Not impressed with what I see above. Some people will be making hour long journeys! It would be incredible if after all the hype that we end up with something that is worse than the present stock - apart from having air-conditioning and being electric.

I was hoping to demonstrate that the planned interior for the Tram-Train (in the briefing document is linked) provides as much (if not more) seating than other modern, world-class transport systems, and that expecting passengers to stand for short distances is not unique to the South Wales Metro system.

For reference, this is the interior image that I had in mind (for anyone who wan't able to look at the PDF document):

 

[Caaardiff]

The train service will pretty much double on the Valleys lines which although may attract more people, should spread out capacity. Journey times will also decrease about 10 mins for journeys from Queen St to the end of each line (varying between 40-47 mins).
The tram trains will have a capacity just over 250, with seats for about 130.
Tri-modes (Rhymney line) will have capacity of 425 with seats for just about 200.
Given that on Taff side Valleys, many people will get off at Llandaff, Radyr & Taff well, all within 20 mins of Central, and Ponty having the bulk getting off within 30 mins of Central, people should be able to get a seat within 20 mins, or definitely 30.
Similar on the Rhymney line, Caerphilly is only 20 mins from Central, with Heath, Llanishen & Lisvane in between.
It's unrealistic to expect every person to get a seat at busy commuter times. If the capacity was provided, bearing in mind there's only so many coaches that can be laid on due to platform lengths at some Valleys stations, and every person gets a seat, it will only become a more attractive travel option to others that may normally drive or get the bus, meaning demand will increase and eventually it's back to square one where demand outweighs supply.
It would be different on mainline journeys as there would be a mix of commuter, business and leisure travellers, also travelling longer journeys.

 

[Envoy]

Sion Barry - brother of Mark - has put this out on Media Wales regarding the proposed line running NW from the City Line in Fairwater:>https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/...ack-disused-railway-16562009#comments-section

A £135,000 study has commissioned, which will then inform a strategic outline business case.
The work will consider how much of the former route, which ceased operating more than 50 years ago, could be brought back and what would have to deviate from it.

Looking at the plans for Plasdwr (the new so called ‘Garden Village’ in NW Cardiff), I cannot see any reference to such a new rail route. Indeed, they seem to be of the opinion that buses will shift the increased population in this area. Given the current overloaded road network, we know that this will be well nigh on impossible. No mention is made of how people could use public transport to get from Plasdwr to Culverhouse Cross. Presumably, the new population will be driving over St.Fagans level crossing on the main line? (Had they had a link from Llantrisant Road to the M4/A4232 at J33, they would not have a need to travel via St.Fagans - or the village of Groes Faen for that matter for J34 at Miskin).

I also note from the Plasdwr plans they it looks like the former rail route mentioned in the above article will be a cycleway. Should that be established first, then I foresee trouble ahead if it is later removed for a new rail route. The old railway was also single track so that somewhat limits the room available to have a cycleway alongside without major earthworks. Here is the Plasdwr Design & Access PDF:>https://plasdwr.co.uk//wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Design-and-Access-Statement.pdf

What I would like to see is the route marked out for the new railway along with locations for stations - which should have car parks for those arriving from further out. For example, if this new line is built, where would be the most convenient place to have a station - with car park for the residents of outlying villages such at St.Brides & Peterston-super-Ely in order to dissuade them from driving any further into Cardiff? Likewise, people from the lane between Llantrisant Road (Redlava) & Pentyrch are hardly going to walk all the way to a station in the Plasdwr area. They surely would need a P&R station where any new Metro line goes under Croft-Y-Gennau Road - which could also be used by people driving up from St.Fagans? No provision for this has been made thus far by planners. Indeed, the Plasdwr development plan has not taken any consideration into the location of a Metro line and how the new residents will reach such stations - preferably on foot. Building is already going ahead completely ignoring this.

Goodness knows why they now have to spend £135,000 for a study into such a rail route? Surely all this should have been done as part of the original masterplan for all of this building which is going ahead between Fairwater & Cregiau?

 

[Oscar46016]

Envoy - I believe that the non-Plasdwr development further up Llantrissant Road ( near Cregiau ) has links to Jct 33 so that would be the best way to get out onto the M4.
Completely agree with you regarding the old railway track - also part of the is already been built on at Radyr Way ( a bit of a misnomer there is that it's not in Radyr! ).

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

Completely agree with you regarding the old railway track - also part of the is already been built on at Radyr Way ( a bit of a misnomer there is that it's not in Radyr! ).

I'm not quite sure wher you mean by "Radyr Way" - it's not on Google maps. If you mean Woodford Close and Chatsworth close in Fairwater, the proposal has always been to use a new direct alignment to reach the City Line rather than following the old alignment down to Waun Gron Park. It would involve the demolition of half a dozen properties at most.

Interestingly, I was at a presentation last week where Mark Barry, who kicked the whole Metro idea off, and others were pretty lukewarm about the council's 'circle line' proposals, presumably because of constraints on the Taff Valley line. He seemed to suggest that it was more realitic to simply extend the Coryton line to Morganstown and provide an end-on interchange station.

There's a webcast of the presentation available here. https://twitter.com/CbsExec/with_replies

 

[Cardiff123]

Unfortunately you have to be a student or staff member at Cardiff University to be able to watch it.

 

[Envoy]

Envoy - I believe that the non-Plasdwr development further up Llantrissant Road ( near Cregiau ) has links to Jct 33 so that would be the best way to get out onto the M4.
Completely agree with you regarding the old railway track - also part of the is already been built on at Radyr Way ( a bit of a misnomer there is that it's not in Radyr! ).

No - they have no intention to connect anything but the Business Park & the P&R car park to J33. Furthermore, the proposed P&R car park would not exactly be near the route of any Metro at this location. (They expect people to come off the M4 - go into the P&R and then get buses to the city centre via the A4232, Culverhouse Cross & down through Ely & Canton. Absolutely bonkers)! Regarding the business park: presumably it will be similar to the one at J30 in NE Cardiff - so called Cardiff Gate. Nothing but office blocks and car dealers surrounded by large car parks. Just what we need at the strategic regional junction at J33. The whole thing is a disaster as traffic that already is unable to switch with ease between the A4232 & M4 will face further delays. A FLYOVER is needed to stop the conflict of vehicle movements. When will this so called Welsh Government learn that putting business parks/shopping areas on major intersections such as Culverhouse Cross & M4 J33 just does not work as it inhibits the free movement of vehicles across the region and further?

Map of J33 proposed development:>



The houses that would need to be demolished to connect the re-built railway to the NW with the City Line are at the centre of this map:>
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4975271,-3.235392,388m/data=!3m1!1e3!5m1!1e1

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

Unfortunately you have to be a student or staff member at Cardiff University to be able to watch it.

If you go to the third tweet down there's a link that doesn't require a password.

 

[MarkyT]

The houses that would need to be demolished to connect the re-built railway to the NW with the City Line are at the centre of this map:>
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4975271,-3.235392,388m/data=!3m1!1e3!5m1!1e1

Perhaps an alternative not requiring demolition could branch off further north as illustrated. It would be a steep climb out of the valley but with LR vehicles that could be plausible. Might also fly over the city line and follow the abandoned formation to Llandaff to join the main line to Cathays and Queen Street.

 

[Envoy]

Too late MarkyT - they are already building houses on the land that your yellow line crosses as part of the Plasdwr development. I also think that the hill would have been far too steep for the train-trams to cope with.

 

[Dr Day]

Surely the whole point of having tram-trains was so that they could run on-street, with readily accessible stops? Clearly slows things down relative to 'proper' trains on dedicated rights of way, particularly if shared with other traffic, but does provide more options for routing within existing built-up areas.

 

[MarkyT]

Surely the whole point of having tram-trains was so that they could run on-street, with readily accessible stops? Clearly slows things down relative to 'proper' trains on dedicated rights of way, particularly if shared with other traffic, but does provide more options for routing within existing built-up areas.

Very true but you've still got got to create the junctions and transitions between existing and new routes. Street running, although possible clearly, should ideally be limited to a minimum, and on dedicated lanes or reservation and/or with absolute priority given to trams at junctions/crossings. The key benefits of LR capability are in the avoidance of complete segregation, steeper hill climbing and tighter curve negotiation capability, as well as the ability to have new road and pedestrian crossings at grade. The 50m long vehicles, capable of being run in double consists up to 100m length will be difficult to accomodate in many road layouts so some careful highway engineering will be involved in areas where space is shared with general traffic.

 

[cjp4]

Interesting map in the first image of this tweet from TFW from the Core Valleys job fair.

Appears to show future stations on a ‘spur’ from Cathays to National Museum and Greyfriars Road. Also a link between the Bay and Central via a Callagan Square station along with previously announced stations

 

[PaulHarding150]

Interesting map in the first image of this tweet from TFW from the Core Valleys job fair.

Appears to show future stations on a ‘spur’ from Cathays to National Museum and Greyfriars Road. Also a link between the Bay and Central via a Callagan Square station along with previously announced stations

that would be the yellow line from this map: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Wales_Metro#/media/File:SW_Metro.png
Note the link from Cathays to Central that avoids Queen Street.

Also check out this document and the maps towards the end which show some options for on street running in the City Centre (including down High St/St Mary Street) and through Grnagetown.
https://tfw.gov.wales/sites/default/files/documents/SHRA South Wales Metro.pdf

 

[Envoy]

that would be the yellow line from this map: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Wales_Metro#/media/File:SW_Metro.png
Note the link from Cathays to Central that avoids Queen Street.

Also check out this document and the maps towards the end which show some options for on street running in the City Centre (including down High St/St Mary Street) and through Grnagetown.
https://tfw.gov.wales/sites/default/files/documents/SHRA South Wales Metro.pdf

This is old stuff from 2016/7 so I am not sure that they still plan to run through the streets of central Cardiff - which attracted much opposition on this forum. My guess is that the first priority is to double up the heads of the valleys and partially electrify the present system so they can start running the new rolling stock. I would also think that high priority would be given to re-building the route out to Cregiau and building some new stations such as at Ely Mill. I would also think that they would/should prioritise building a new station on the reliefs in east Cardiff/St. Mellons in order that people can use a stopping service into Cardiff or eastward to Newport for transfer to/from expresses to/from England. Aberdare to Hirwaun would also be a quick ‘win’. I would also think that the Ebbw Valley trains running into Newport would be a high priority. (This is my guesswork as I have no inside knowledge).

If anyone has ‘inside knowledge’ - then perhaps they could chip in?

 

[cjp4]

Yes, seen the old Welsh Government published ideas/reports pre franchise being signed. However that map I’m alluding too is from a KeolisAmey event this week and one assumes is current as it was on display at the fair. I was under the impression the only confirmed on street running was the 200 or so meters in the bay?

 

[Cardiff123]

Yes, seen the old Welsh Government published ideas/reports pre franchise being signed. However that map I’m alluding too is from a KeolisAmey event this week and one assumes is current as it was on display at the fair. I was under the impression the only confirmed on street running was the 200 or so meters in the bay?

It is. Any other on-street running is under 'future extension options', in other words, it's not funded or committed but is an idea for the future.

 

[Envoy]

Prof. Mark Barry has just had this published regarding the Metro:>
https://businessnewswales.com/emerging-vision-for-transport-in-cardiff/

This network will augment the new stations and services proposed as part of the South Wales Metro, exploit tram-train technology and make use of existing and new rail corridors. These rail-based interventions will be integrated with new bus priority corridors, a redesigned bus network and active travel measure to dramatically enhance public transport and active travel accessibility across the city.

 

[K.o.R]

I'd love to be on that proposed train when the on-board announcement says, "The next station is P+T C33 J33 P+R"

Something along the lines of "Yr orsaf nesaf, next stop, Parcio a Thethio Cyffordd tri deg tri, Junction 33 Park & Ride". In ATOS Anne voice, of course.

 

[MarkyT]

Prof. Mark Barry has just had this published regarding the Metro:>
https://businessnewswales.com/emerging-vision-for-transport-in-cardiff/

Looks like some kind of grade separation will be neccessary west of Cardiff to unlock capacity together with some extra platforms at Central station .

 

[edwin_m]

Looks like some kind of grade separation will be neccessary west of Cardiff to unlock capacity together with some extra platforms at Central station .

The "Cardiff Circle" route in the link shows a stop at Herbert Street between Queen Street and Central, which is also on the Bay route. I think this means it would run on or near the street throught Callaghan Square with tram platforms near the south entrance of Central, so not requiring extra platforms in the existing station. But I agree probably grade separation to get from there to the City Line, which could incorporate a flying junction for the Penarth services.

 

[MarkyT]

The "Cardiff Circle" route in the link shows a stop at Herbert Street between Queen Street and Central, which is also on the Bay route. I think this means it would run on or near the street throught Callaghan Square with tram platforms near the south entrance of Central, so not requiring extra platforms in the existing station. But I agree probably grade separation to get from there to the City Line, which could incorporate a flying junction for the Penarth services.

It could run at street level, but the road network round there is complex and busy, so all the junctions and conflicts might instead be avoided by a short elevated alignment as shown, about 750m long, and that could incorporate a Herbert St stop at the junction with the Queen St line. Is the undeveloped land shown immediately to the south of Callaghan Square still available? New buildings there might be built under and around such a viaduct.

 

[anthony263]

Not a bad idea might get people moaning though that it spoils the view from their office blocks

 

[Nick Ashwell]

I'm assuming you provide Northern access via a triangle junction through such an alignment?

 

[MarkyT]

I'm assuming you provide Northern access via a triangle junction through such an alignment?

Notionally, there could be another chord to make a triangle at Herbert Street, creating additional capacity/flexibility between Central and Queen Street, if that was ever required. Perhaps passive provision and safeguarding might be appropriate for future expansion.

 

[edwin_m]

Notionally, there could be another chord to make a triangle at Herbert Street, creating additional capacity/flexibility between Central and Queen Street, if that was ever required. Perhaps passive provision and safeguarding might be appropriate for future expansion.

The map I referred to above suggests the service would run to/from Queen Street rather than the Bay. Maybe therefore it would run further south past Callaghan Square so as to swing northwards and join the Bay line south of Herbert Street bridge. But assuming it's a tram-train it could include 25m curves if necessary.

 

[sefyllian]

In this BBC report from January there's a shot in the video (around 0:08) showing what looks like a tram line passing the area of Brains brewery then heading more or less directly south from the station towards the bay. The whole of that area is due to be demolished and redeveloped, so it is possible, but not sure how they'd then get over to the Millennium Centre to join the existing line (along James Street?). The images seem to come from the Cardiff Capital Region, but may just be speculative.

 

[Envoy]

I see that Network Rail recently placed a new signal where a track could have gone coming off the river bridge towards the south entrance of the station. Goodness knows why they did not have the foresight to place this signal upright right on the verge so that it would have been easier to add an extra track in the future? See photos:>

 

[Envoy]

I see that Persimmon are seeking permission to build homes on the east side of Caerphilly. Surely, if this land were developed, it would prevent the re-building of the rail line between Newport & Caerphilly? You can see the land in this view:>https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5798032,-3.1977184,2335m/data=!3m1!1e3!5m1!1e1

Here the area in question is highlighted:>https://caerphilly.observer/news/96...-for-618-new-homes-on-green-space-near-rudry/

Developers PMG Limited and Persimmon Homes want to build on the site of Gwern y Domen in Rudry and have employed firm Asbri Planning to deal with the planning application to Caerphilly County Borough Council.

I find it incredible that the Welsh Government draw up all these Metro plans - including a new line from Caerphilly to Newport, yet do nothing about protecting such a route from development. (Clearly, a line from Caerphilly to Newport station would significantly benefit the populous of the Rhymney valley by taking a ‘short cut’ to the main line for services to/from England instead of going via Cardiff. The line is stallion place as far as Machen Quarry).