South Wales 'Metro'

Discussion in 'Infrastructure & Stations' started by Envoy, 2 Jul 2015.

  1. Dai Corner

    Dai Corner Established Member

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    Cardiff Central - Merthyr is currently about 60 mins and the tram-trains are projected to take about 47 and an increased frequency.
    From this document
    https://gov.wales/sites/default/files/publications/2018-06/south-wales-metro-brochure.pdf
     

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  2. Envoy

    Envoy Established Member

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    Also note that at present trains from the central valleys run direct down to the coast. When the new system is up and running, everybody from the central valleys will have to change in Cardiff for Barry, Rhoose etc.

    Meanwhile, yesterday, the issue about the lack of on-board toilets had much publicity on BBC Wales:>https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-49743976
     
  3. Robertj21a

    Robertj21a Established Member

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  4. S-Bahn

    S-Bahn Member

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    Although removing the toilets on these services will be a disaster. When you gotta go you gotta go....
     
  5. PHILIPE

    PHILIPE Veteran Member

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    First Generation DMUs Class 116 trundled up and down the Valleys for years without toilets
     
  6. S-Bahn

    S-Bahn Member

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    And in the Victorian era people brought chamber pots onto trains and urinated out of the window.

    We are not animals, we live in a society.
     
  7. Brissle Girl

    Brissle Girl Member

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    So how do people manage on longer tube runs from the suburbs, which can easily be 45 minutes? Or on the local services from WGC, Hertford North, Shenfield into London, (about 50 mins), or indeed many local bus services. And I'm sure the majority of people sit in rush hour traffic for 45 minutes without needing to take a comfort break. Or is it that the valley's bladders are weaker than in other parts of the country? As has been explained before, if you're that desperate there will be many more toilets at stations, and by the time you've done what you need to, the next tram will soon be along (especially south of Pontypridd, when there will be one every 5 minutes.) An accessible toilet will take away a huge amount of space, increase overcrowding, and add cost, weight and also increase servicing costs, especially when those who choose to treat public toilets in a different way to which they would treat those at home use the facilities.
     
  8. Robertj21a

    Robertj21a Established Member

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    Aren't some of these lines alcohol free at times ? I assume that will remain.
     
  9. Dai Corner

    Dai Corner Established Member

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    North of Caerphilly and Pontypridd at all times IIRC
     
  10. PHILIPE

    PHILIPE Veteran Member

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    To help people from a toilet need.:lol::lol:
     
  11. Envoy

    Envoy Established Member

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    So, if you are drinking alcohol coming up the valley from Cardiff, you had better hurry up and finish before you reach Pontypridd/Caerphilly. Is this rule suggesting that the people in the upper valleys are irresponsible?

    I can see the point of not having toilets on these tram-trains but I do wonder about how viable it will be to have new toilets at the various unmanned stations in the valleys? May I suggest that Transport for Wales actually build one of their new toilets at a station in the valleys immediately in order that it can be determined that it will not be vandalised? It clearly would be crazy to roll out an expensive programme of new toilets at unmanned stations throughout the valleys to then have to abandon them due to vandalism.

    I note that the A470 (main road through the middle of Wales linking north & south) has no service areas/toilets. So, if for instance you need to go in the Brecon area, you actually have to drive into the town and use the supermarket. Perhaps TfW should start by building a ‘service area’ at Llangurig - where south-north and east-west routes cross?
     
  12. Llanigraham

    Llanigraham On Moderation

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    I'd love to see the paperwork between Powys CC and TfW to justify a "railway" facility/toilet on a road 13 miles from the nearest station, and when Powys CC have closed nearly all their public toilets.
     
  13. Robertj21a

    Robertj21a Established Member

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    I think the alcohol ban on the Valley lines has been in effect for some years now, so passengers should be more than used to it.
     
  14. Tomos y Tanc

    Tomos y Tanc Member

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    The toilet issue is a very real one for people with some chronic disablities.

    Ironically though it's the legal requirement for accesible toilets that make them too large to fit into the quite narrow Flirts. I presume that the reduced width of the Staedler units compared to the current fleet is a requirement for on-street running.
     
  15. Envoy

    Envoy Established Member

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    I thought the ‘Flirts’ are normal size trains and not intended for street running?
     
  16. MarkyT

    MarkyT Established Member

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    Perhaps they could convert rooms in the vast range of redundant buildings on Pontypridd's original platform into huge urinals to cope with the rush after a big match in Cardiff...
     
  17. MarkyT

    MarkyT Established Member

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    Flirts will be normal width, and Anglia examples definitely have toilets. Cardiff's Citylink tram-trains aren't planned to have toilets but I don't think they're so narrow as to preclude them completely if a customer really wanted one for a much longer rural run. The Sheffield cl.399s are 2.65m wide and Anglia cl.755s are 2.72m for the passenger cars and 2.815m for the power pack, so there's actually only 70mm, or under 3 inches difference. It's not like comparing trams with mainland European width trains.
     
  18. edwin_m

    edwin_m Veteran Member

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    A few Karlsruhe tram-trains, also 2.65m wide, were built in the 90s with toilets (and bars!) for longer-distance workings, but I doubt the toilet would meet current UK accessibility requirements. The bar wasn't economically viable and both it and the toilet were locked out quite soon after going into service.
     
  19. S-Bahn

    S-Bahn Member

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    The issue with toilets is that there was clearly an identified need to put toilets on trains - that's why they were added to designs and its something that anyone could use anytime. For those services mentioned that don't have toilets on trains, I'm sure the passengers would think a toilet would be a good idea.

    Anyone could suddenly have an upset stomach, or feel nausea and not be able to make it to the next station (assuming the toilet is open).

    It's a backward step not to have them on the new trains. The FLIRT's will have them. Why not ask Stadler to remove them from the spec for the Rhymney-Barry-Penarth services if there is no demand for toilets on trains?

    I suspect the real issue is the tram-train lines are being upgraded on the cheap (not full electrification) and the design of the City-link does not allow for the fitting of retention tanks and all the other plumbing/electricals to have a functioning modern DDA compliant toilet on the tram-train - after all why are they buying two different types of trains, when they could have just bought FLIRT's for the whole Valley Lines network....(answer - for a short section of pointless street running in Cardiff Bay to get the AM's excited and win the tender).
     
    Last edited: 21 Sep 2019
  20. Horizon22

    Horizon22 Member

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    As someone resident on routes where there are services without toilets (376s), this is an incredibly short-sighted move which I envisage backfiring not long in the near future.
     
  21. S-Bahn

    S-Bahn Member

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  22. Cardiff123

    Cardiff123 Member

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    The entire 'Core Valley Lines' is being electrified to 25 kV standard. Some sections will remain neutral, and under these sections the tram-trains will run on on-board batteries
     
  23. Dai Corner

    Dai Corner Established Member

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    Professor Mark Barry is the academic mind behind the South Wales Metro project.

    This is what he has to say
    https://swalesmetroprof.blog/2019/09/21/toilets-on-tram-trains/
     
    Last edited: 21 Sep 2019
  24. S-Bahn

    S-Bahn Member

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    As I said, on the cheap. The battery tech is bound to fail leaving carriages trapped in tunnels etc.

    Would have been better to carry out the full electrification (as was the original plan) or don't bother and just buy 4-car CAF Class 195's for the whole valley lines network.
     
  25. Dai Corner

    Dai Corner Established Member

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    Full electrification would have meant no heavy batteries to carry around, leaving more scope for toilets and the associated tanks too.
     
  26. MarkyT

    MarkyT Established Member

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    Battery storage is generally very reliable and fast becoming totally mainstream in road vehicle designs, whether hybrid or fully electric, and we don't hear stories of large scale failures on the highways. On rail, allowing longer wiring gaps through difficult areas such as tunnels and bridges can make very significant savings.
     
  27. krus_aragon

    krus_aragon Established Member

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    He makes it sound like a bad thing, but maybe we should try it?

    "Sorry sir, you can only come on the tram if you bring three friends along with you" :D
     
  28. MarkyT

    MarkyT Established Member

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    Clearly it does weigh something, but the discontinuous electrification concept allows the battery bank to be limited in size compared to a totally battery driven solution which would have to carry sufficient charge to make it to the next static charging opportunity at a terminus or depot. Batteries can be spread about and tucked into spaces where toilets and tanks wouldn't be practical, on the roof for instance.
     
  29. MarkWiles

    MarkWiles Member

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    Well said Mark Barry. The Tyne and Wear Metro replaced DMU stock with loos with non-toilet Metro stock. Metrolink trams replaced partially and fully toilet equipped trains to Bury, Altrincham, Oldham and Rochdale, the latter running for nearly 15 miles, with toiletless vehicles. Croydon Tramlink replaced mainline trains, some of which would have a toilet. Toiletless main line trains will run from Reading to Essex at some point in the future when they can finish the Lizzie line. I'm sorry to have to say this but this whole kerfuffle over the toiletless trams seems to have been whipped up by journalists who want to knock TfW as an arm of the Welsh Government, cynically using people with genuine concerns and conditions as an excuse to have a go at the scheme. Five minute's research into the various Metro schemes around the UK of which Manchester is the closest analogue would show that exactly what is proposed for Greater Cardiff is no different to Greater Manchester, and I assume Greater Manchester has more than it's fair share of people with urinary and bowel disorders who somehow manage to use the network.
     
  30. Gwenllian2001

    Gwenllian2001 Member

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    Should the new rolling stock have toilets? When the first generation d.m.us were introduced they did not have toilets neither did their steam predecessors. The difference between then and now is that all stations in the area had ample toilet facilities. The downgrading of stations over the years saw these facilities removed which could make for some very uncomfortable journeys until the new stock appeared. Until the 'restoration' of Cardiff Central there were large and well maintained facilities for both sexes off the subway immediately beyond the ticket barriers. These were replaced by very small facilities situated towards the ends of the platforms. Totally inadequate and difficult to find, they were, and are, not an adequate replacement. To provide proper facilities in the valleys lots of new toilets will need to be built and, presumably, staffed to avoid the kind of criminal damage which seems to be the social norm amongst young people. Even with tighter timing a lot of journeys on the network will be longer than other Metro style services. Despite what the professor might think, on train facilities will be much more convenient and might well prove to be cheaper in the long run.
     

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