South Wales 'Metro' updates

[mmh]

I'm really puzzled why people are getting so riled about the lack of on-board toilets.

On the National Rail network, none of these services have on-board toilets:

Because "all these places have rubbish trains" isn't a good reason to introduce new rubbish trains elsewhere.

 

[Brissle Girl]

What about people suffering from acute diarrhoea or vomiting? Does TFW have any contingency for the inevitable accident?

Equally likely on the tube, bus journeys from the suburbs of Cardiff, and other journeys of up to 50 mins, where there won’t the option of getting off with a toilet to hand.

Toilets will significantly increase the cost of the units, significantly reduce true capacity as they will be accessible, and running and maintenance costs will be increased. Whilst some people will assume that funds are unlimited, on the assumption they are not, a doubling of frequency with faster journey times and the stated provision of toilets at intermediate stations seems a sensible compromise with the funds available.

 

[mmh]

Perhaps if it was genuinely a "high frequency metro" there'd be fewer complaints. It isn't though, it's 4tph (which will probably mean 2 tph at the extremities of service) on existing lines.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

I'm not convinced that there are actually that many valleys commuters going to the Bay.

The facts suggest otherwise. The Cardiff bay branch was used by 1,302,676 passengers in 2017-18. It's a fair bet that the vast majority of them were people changing trains at Queen Street of whom a large percentage would have been valley line passengers.

I do agree with you though that developments at Central Square and Central Quay will increase demand on the Queen Street > Cardiff Central route There'll be 10 tph in both directions linking the two stations though, more than enough capacity one would have thought.

 

[Brissle Girl]

Perhaps if it was genuinely a "high frequency metro" there'd be fewer complaints. It isn't though, it's 4tph (which will probably mean 2 tph at the extremities of service) on existing lines.

The Manchester tramlink is 5tph, so not much different. And that's purely a supposition that it will be less frequent at the start and end of the day. Remember anyone doing a 50 min journey down the valley will reach Pontypridd in around 25 mins, after which there'll be a tram every 5 minutes if they do need to answer the call of nature.

I wonder was there such an uproar in Oldham and Rochdale about toilets when the lines were converted to toiletless trams?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wonder was there such an uproar in Oldham and Rochdale about toilets when the lines were converted to toiletless trams?

Nobody in their right mind goes from Rochdale to Manchester on the tram, the train is much quicker. But from Oldham the (heavily increased) passenger numbers probably tell you the story

 

[S-Bahn]

The facts suggest otherwise. The Cardiff bay branch was used by 1,302,676 passengers in 2017-18. It's a fair bet that the vast majority of them were people changing trains at Queen Street of whom a large percentage would have been valley line passengers.

I do agree with you though that developments at Central Square and Central Quay will increase demand on the Queen Street > Cardiff Central route There'll be 10 tph in both directions linking the two stations though, more than enough capacity one would have thought.

I would disagree on the interpretation of the stats. Cardiff Bay may have had 1.3m passenger movements, but if we add up the Valley Lines stations which had movements of >0.4m (400,000) per year

Aberdare – 0.57m
Merthyr T - 0.51m
Treherbert – 0.48m
Radyr – 0.54m
Llandaff - 0.48m
Pengam – 0.46m
Barry – 0.53m
Barry Island – 0.75m
Heath HL - 0.44m
Caerphilly – 0.77m
Trefforest – 0.75m
Pontypridd – 0.86m
Penarth – 0.63m

That gives a total of 7.77 million. Obviously the figure for the whole network is a lot higher when you add in all the other stations (Ystrad Mynach, Porth, Abercynon and Taffs Well add another 1.4m)

Cardiff Central - 12.95m
Cardiff Queen Street - 2.9m

What is obvious is that the overwhelming majority of these passengers are alighting at Cardiff Central (and to a lesser extent Queen Street). Most to go to work in the city centre, and some are going to the Bay via Queen street, whilst some will be changing onto the main line at Cardiff Central to go elsewhere outside Cardiff.

Add in the building of new offices around Cardiff Central, and clearly diverting trains away from Central to go to the Bay is not a good idea. Cardiff Bay would be better served by improvements to the shuttle service between Cardiff Bay and Queen Street such as 2 x 2/3 car trains crossing at a passing loop or track doubling enabling trains to sync up and cross half way.

 

[S-Bahn]

I'll also add that I don't hate Trams. I think they are great as an urban light rail network. If the proposal was for a separate Cardiff wide tram network, particularly one that could connect up eastern Cardiff and new housing developments that have no rail, then I would be very enthusiastic about that idea.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

I don't think we disagree that much! Of course, most valleys passengers are heading for central Cardiff but the numbers heading for the Bay aren't insignificant and, for them, direct services will be a real boon.

With 10 tph planned from Queen Street to Central, I don't see that diverting 6tph to the Bay will inconvenience anyone very much. Could Central even handle those extra six trains? I'm not sure that it could.

 

[edwin_m]

A regional/local train is unlikely to have more than one toilet and it may be out of order, occupied by a fare dodger or members of the 6ft-high-club, or just with a queue if it's a late night train when the pubs tip out. So I suggest the various groups who might need a toilet in a hurry can't really rely on finding one on a train.

 

[edwin_m]

I don't think we disagree that much! Of course, most valleys passengers are heading for central Cardiff but the numbers heading for the Bay aren't insignificant and, for them, direct services will be a real boon.

With 10 tph planned from Queen Street to Central, I don't see that diverting 6tph to the Bay will inconvenience anyone very much. Could Central even handle those extra six trains? I'm not sure that it could.

I believe they will only use three platforms and need to keep two of those clear for trains going through to the Barry line, so the terminating capacity at Central is very limited. Changing at Queen Street there ought to be a service for the other destination along within a few minutes - a shame it isn't being rebuilt with two islands for cross-platform interchange.

 

[Brissle Girl]

a shame it isn't being rebuilt with two islands for cross-platform interchange.

Hard to see how that would be possible short of demolishing the whole station at track level and starting again. Being built on an embankment means there is no scope to widen the formation. Don't forget that those wanting Central can choose one of the two tph from each valley that will continue to Central, or possibly jump off at Cathays and catch one five minutes later. It would be a complete waste of money, compared with other things it could be spent on.

 

[edwin_m]

Hard to see how that would be possible short of demolishing the whole station at track level and starting again. Being built on an embankment means there is no scope to widen the formation. Don't forget that those wanting Central can choose one of the two tph from each valley that will continue to Central, or possibly jump off at Cathays and catch one five minutes later. It would be a complete waste of money, compared with other things it could be spent on.

I tend to agree with that - despite also thinking it's a shame...

 

[transmanche]

Because "all these places have rubbish trains" isn't a good reason to introduce new rubbish trains elsewhere.

Class 345/378/710/717 trains are all rubbish now, are they? OK...

 

[mmh]

Class 345/378/710/717 trains are all rubbish now, are they? OK...

Yes, they are. Them being newer than things like 313/376/455/507 and whichever else doesn't change that.

 

[transmanche]

Class 345/378/710/717 trains are all rubbish now, are they? OK...

Yes, they are.

OK, I'm out of here. There's no point in any further discussion.

 

[PaulHarding150]

What is obvious is that the overwhelming majority of these passengers are alighting at Cardiff Central (and to a lesser extent Queen Street). Most to go to work in the city centre, and some are going to the Bay via Queen street, whilst some will be changing onto the main line at Cardiff Central to go elsewhere outside Cardiff.

I spent 3.5 years commuting in rush hour from Queen Street to Penarth - the Rhumney train that I usually caught at 0826 in Queen Street emptied 50%+ of its passengers in Queen Street. There is a lot of employment in the Queen Street area - retail and office based.

 

[Dai Corner]

I spent 3.5 years commuting in rush hour from Queen Street to Penarth - the Rhumney train that I usually caught at 0826 in Queen Street emptied 50%+ of its passengers in Queen Street. There is a lot of employment in the Queen Street area - retail and office based.

It would be interesting to see the methodology behind the station usage figures. I think fares to Central, Queen Street and Bay are the same from outside the City so Valleys passengers might be buying tickets to Central or Bay even if they intend to get off at Queen Street just in case they decide to return from one of the other stations.

 

[Brissle Girl]

It would be interesting to see the methodology behind the station usage figures. I think fares to Central, Queen Street and Bay are the same from outside the City so Valleys passengers might be buying tickets to Central or Bay even if they intend to get off at Queen Street just in case they decide to return from one of the other stations.

A very good point. There tends to be some sampling or other methods used to estimate in such circumstances, but it becomes an inexact science.

And in answer to the earlier point, yes there is a lot of commuter traffic to QS and indeed Cathays. On the latter point, people from south of Cardiff will be inconvenienced by the need to change trains, but with one every 5 minutes it won’t be the greatest problem, and there are almost inevitably some losers in a radical change of timetables, even when the overall effect is positive.

 

[Mr Apples]

Forgive me if this is covered elsewhere, or I have got the wrong thread, but the ownership of the Core Valleys Lines WAS due to pass from Network Rail to TfW on 21 Sept, I believe. Is this still the case? Did it happen?

 

[Cardiff123]

Forgive me if this is covered elsewhere, or I have got the wrong thread, but the ownership of the Core Valleys Lines WAS due to pass from Network Rail to TfW on 21 Sept, I believe. Is this still the case? Did it happen?

It's being delayed, negotiations between NR and TfW are still ongoing

 

[Envoy]

Rail magazine dated 9 October 2019 has a feature about the south east Wales Metro.

 

[Envoy]

It is now 1 year since Transport for Wales / Keolis took over from Arriva. So, perhaps it is time to take stock of what progress has been made thus far with the Metro core valleys lines as well as the other major commuter routes in south-east Wales. Well, I am aware that work is progressing on clearing the site for the new depot at Taffs Well, but what else has happened - such as new car parks, track doubling etc. . ?

 

[Cardiff123]

It is now 1 year since Transport for Wales / Keolis took over from Arriva. So, perhaps it is time to take stock of what progress has been made thus far with the Metro core valleys lines as well as the other major commuter routes in south-east Wales. Well, I am aware that work is progressing on clearing the site for the new depot at Taffs Well, but what else has happened - such as new car parks, track doubling etc. . ?

No infrastructure work has started yet, and wasn't due to start in the first year of the new franchise. TfW are still waiting to take control of the CVL infrastructure from Network Rail. No infrastructure upgrades will start until that process is complete.

 

[Dr Day]

As far as I m aware, Keolis Amey didn't commit to doing anything anywhere else on the 'Metro' network within a year, other than a deep clean which does appear to have happened at the limited number of stations I have frequented recently. The 'transformation' of the Valleys is still a few years off, with the main change being additional direct through trains to Cardiff Bay - not additional direct trains to Central (although people will be able to get a Bay train and change at Queen Street, so still more opportunities than today albeit with interchange).

The 'vision' of a turn up and go 4 tph Metro of direct rail services, with integrated trams and buses, is still a long way off for the vast majority of South East Wales.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

No infrastructure work has started yet, and wasn't due to start in the first year of the new franchise. TfW are still waiting to take control of the CVL infrastructure from Network Rail. No infrastructure upgrades will start until that process is complete.

That's not quite true. There's been no infrastructure work on the CVL itself but there is work ongoing on the Taffs Well depot site which was purchased seperately.

 

[Brissle Girl]

Probably more accurate to say that no infrastructure work has taken place on Network Rail land yet, and won't do until the legal agreements are in place to transfer them to KA. That was always envisaged, and probably no big issue as it would take at least a year of planning before things start to happen. However the depot site will be on land not owned by NR so preliminary work, such as clearing the site, removing any contamination etc could get under way.

 

[Envoy]

So, a whole year has gone by and virtually nothing has happened! Surely, they could at least have started building some car parks at suitable locations? Goodness knows why they did not embark on all the legal stuff whilst Arriva were still running the show in order to press ahead as soon as they were gone?

 

[Brissle Girl]

It was made clear at the outset that would be the case, so this isn’t new news. Whilst Arriva was still running all the legal effort would be on putting the contractual requirements in place for TfW to take over and for mobilisation. I’d imagine that in itself is a full time job and a half in the short time between announcement and a franchise transfer.

As I said it’s probably not caused any delay since the infrastructure work will have required a huge amount of design and planning, including detailed site visits, all of which will have been done in parallel with the legals to transfer the infrastructure.

 

[WelshBluebird]

I think it is worth pointing out that other work, that TfW did say would be done in the first year, hasn't been though.
Things like TVMs at all stations etc. Promises that were made but nothing has happened.