South Wales 'Metro'

Discussion in 'Infrastructure & Stations' started by Envoy, 2 Jul 2015.

  1. Envoy

    Envoy Established Member

    Messages:
    1,371
    Joined:
    29 Aug 2014
    I think that most people are expecting that when the new trains arrive that capacity will allow everybody to commute without standing. If the plan is to only have enough capacity for the present flows and to assume that people will be standing, then I can hardly see this attracting extra commuters who at present use their cars. What is needed is the capacity to shift the present flows - without standing plus allow for more passengers that can be attracted off the roads. To do this, they surely need to be SEATED?

    It looks like many of the Transport for Wales services are rammed at commuting times. Some people cannot even board trains as they are so full. The Welsh Government dragged their feet in not deciding soon enough who was going to run the trains & hence, get the orders in for new stock. They knew damn well what the situation was when Arriva were running things. Clearly, if the 769’s come into service and then 2 or 3 years later, the Stadler Flirts arrive with less capacity, it will be a PR disaster and the people will want the 769’s back - despite them being old.

    This press article recently appeared on Media Wales concerning the overcrowding. Note the comments section that follows!
    https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/gallery/images-packed-carriages-fed-up-17250812
     
  2. NotATrainspott

    NotATrainspott Established Member

    Messages:
    2,880
    Joined:
    2 Feb 2013
    When it comes to getting commuters out of their cars there will inevitably be carrots and sticks. Giving them a nice seat for the duration of their journey would be a nice carrot, but it isn't going to be enough. Whether people like it or not, the main thrust of stopping people driving into Cardiff is going to happen through measures to make life harder for motorists like parking charges, congestion charges and private motoring capacity restrictions (e.g. converting lanes to bus lanes).

    Having to stand on trains doesn't necessarily mean it's overcrowded. Overcrowding is when the number of passengers wanting to travel on a train is well in excess of its normal carrying capacity. On more metro-oriented trains this normal carrying capacity will take standing passengers into account in a way that the regional-style trains typically used around Cardiff previously haven't. For instance, standing in the aisles is fine if it the aisles are wide enough for people to walk past each other so that they can still get on and off at their stops. If a passenger is standing on a Pacer today they're probably in the aisles where it'll be an absolute pain getting to the doors, so dwell times multiply and capacity drops even more as trains are delayed.
     
  3. Chester1

    Chester1 Established Member

    Messages:
    2,460
    Joined:
    25 Aug 2014
    I think Metrolink has a reasonable balance. There are 40 seats on a single unit and that is enough outside of busiest times for all passengers to have a seat. At the busiest times the large standing areas and wide doors mean the service copes with demand. I am a bit skeptical about long distance light rail but with the right choice of layout and seats it could work. I think something like Edinburgh trams high back and cushioned seats would be a good match. Metrolink style seats would be terrible for an hour journey.
     
  4. Envoy

    Envoy Established Member

    Messages:
    1,371
    Joined:
    29 Aug 2014
    The fact is that many of the journeys in the SE Wales Metro area are an hour or so. Going from Merthyr or Rhymney down to Cardiff is no quick local trip. It takes around the same time as an Inter City Express going from Cardiff to Swindon and it would clearly be unacceptable to stand on such a journey. Going from the heads of the valleys down to the coast at Penarth or Barry is even longer.
     
  5. Envoy

    Envoy Established Member

    Messages:
    1,371
    Joined:
    29 Aug 2014
    A public consultation is currently under way for Cardiff East Parkway at St.Mellons. Further details at www.cardiffhendrelakes.com
    You can see plans & discuss at :>
    Meet the team event: Marshfield
    Monday 25 November 2019
    • 3pm – 7pm
    • Castleton Baptist Church, St Mellons Road, Marshfield, CF3 2TX
     
  6. Cardiff123

    Cardiff123 Member

    Messages:
    823
    Joined:
    10 Mar 2013
    Have you seen the artists impressions of the Stadler City Links that are destined for the Valleys? They have been described by KA as 'train-trams' rather than 'tram-trains', and will have 2+2 high backed seating throughout. So people boarding at the heads of the valleys will obviously get a comfortable seat.

    It would be ideal if the 769s had 2+2 seating fitted, they've been sat in depots doing nothing long enough for that to have happened. Commuters and passengers in SE Wales and the Valleys are not used to 3+2 seating, so I suspect there will be a lot of empty middle seats on the 3 seat rows.

    Keolis Amey and TfW need to be given a chance. They are not Arriva mark 2. They've already shown willingness to change their rolling stock plans if needed, bringing in the Mk 2 coaches for example. If it's obvious that they haven't got enough Stadler units for the Valleys to relieve overcrowding, I'm sure that follow on orders will be made.
     
    Last edited: 23 Nov 2019
  7. Chester1

    Chester1 Established Member

    Messages:
    2,460
    Joined:
    25 Aug 2014
    Will the seats all be taken far out? The number of seats will still be increasing but less than the increase in standing space. The normal rule for commuter routes is that people should not have to stand for longer than 20 minutes. At the same seating density as Metrolink units the 40m sets would have 54 seats. Maybe 70 seats would be more suitable for the Valleys.
     
  8. Gwenllian2001

    Gwenllian2001 Member

    Messages:
    652
    Joined:
    15 Jan 2012
    Location:
    Maesteg
    All of the d.m.u.s on the valley lines had 3+2 seating until the the Sprinters arrived. The proverbial hit the fan when the Pacers arrived with their, nominally, 3+2 seating. They were subsequently converted to 2+2 because three people could not fit on the seats properly. The old d.m.u.s were far more comfortable than the newer stuff with plenty of leg room. It seems to have been overlooked that people, on average, have grown larger in the last fifty years or so. Look around you at the teenagers who are bigger than their parents then look at the size the men who served in both world wars. They would be dwarfed by today's youngsters but the trains have not, and cannot be increased in size. Perversely the trains have decreased in length, which was the result of Thatcher's government policy.
     
  9. Dai Corner

    Dai Corner Established Member

    Messages:
    2,243
    Joined:
    20 Jul 2015
    I thought it was the Blair Government which specified the 'no-growth' 2003 franchise and the resources available to it some time after Mrs Thatcher left office?
     
  10. Tomos y Tanc

    Tomos y Tanc Member

    Messages:
    221
    Joined:
    1 Jul 2019
    Correct, and the way Labour AMs continually blame "the Tories" for the state of the Welsh rail network is a bit pathetic.
     
  11. Cardiff123

    Cardiff123 Member

    Messages:
    823
    Joined:
    10 Mar 2013
    But it was the Thatcher govt of the 1980s that forced BR to replace first generation 3 car DMUs with 2 car Sprinters and Pacers.
     
  12. Dai Corner

    Dai Corner Established Member

    Messages:
    2,243
    Joined:
    20 Jul 2015
    True, but subsequent Governments had the opportunity to take a more optimistic view of the railways. I think the Wales & Borders and Northern franchises were the only ones this century to be let on a no growth basis.
     
  13. Gwenllian2001

    Gwenllian2001 Member

    Messages:
    652
    Joined:
    15 Jan 2012
    Location:
    Maesteg
    It was the Thatcher government that forced B.R. into a two for three rolling stock replacement. Blair might have been blamed for some things but that wasn't one of them. Just to assure you that I am not electioneering. I have never voted for either of the parties they headed. No amount of spin or downright dishonesty will alter the past.
     
  14. Cardiff123

    Cardiff123 Member

    Messages:
    823
    Joined:
    10 Mar 2013
  15. Tomos y Tanc

    Tomos y Tanc Member

    Messages:
    221
    Joined:
    1 Jul 2019
    It's not intended to be permanent, is it? It's a temporary base for the construction work and will be replaced by a new depot when the rolloing stock starts arriving.
     
  16. anamyd

    anamyd On Moderation

    Messages:
    2,782
    Joined:
    17 Aug 2018
    I've quoted the article for you :)
     
    Last edited: 8 Jan 2020
  17. PaulHarding150

    PaulHarding150 Member

    Messages:
    740
    Joined:
    13 Feb 2011
    Location:
    Cardiff
    170km is a touch over 100 miles. That presumably includes double counting double track?
     
  18. Envoy

    Envoy Established Member

    Messages:
    1,371
    Joined:
    29 Aug 2014
    I see that the former railway land at what was St. Athan Railway station has been flogged off for new houses - which have now been built. I would have thought that it would have been sensible to have kept this land with a view to re-building a station at St. Athan. (The site was walkable from the bulk of the village but should also have included a free P&R). So, we now have a situation that in the event that a new station is built to serve St. Athan, that land would have to be purchased. I just can’t understand why the Vale of Glamorgan Council - along with the planners at the Welsh Government/ TfW allowed this to happen? For people in St. Athan wishing to catch a train to say Cardiff, they now have to either drive in the wrong direction to Llantwit Major or drive eastward on a slow road with humps through Rhoose village to that station. The probability is that they won’t bother to do this and will instead simply drive all the way to Cardiff - thus adding to the massive amount of traffic already on this route.

    Here is the location on Google Maps:>
    https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.3991024,-3.4148661,1228m/data=!3m1!1e3!5m1!1e1

    Here is a photo of the site of the former St. Athan Railway Station along with the new houses:>

    ST. ATHAN RAIL STATION SITE - HOUSES..jpeg
     
    Last edited: 9 Jan 2020
  19. Cardiff123

    Cardiff123 Member

    Messages:
    823
    Joined:
    10 Mar 2013
    If the houses have already been built and are now being lived in, I'd say that land was sold at least 5 years ago, before TfW even existed
     
  20. JonathanH

    JonathanH Established Member

    Messages:
    3,713
    Joined:
    29 May 2011
    Is there a likely transfer date for the Core Valley Lines asset transfer? Presumably this was delayed because of the UK election.
     
  21. Envoy

    Envoy Established Member

    Messages:
    1,371
    Joined:
    29 Aug 2014
    Even if it was 5 years ago, the desire to improve the rail service was well known and therefore the potential to re-build St. Athan station and help reduce traffic on the roads. Therefore, the Vale of Glamorgan Council along with the Welsh Government should have blocked the sale of this land by Network Rail.

    I now wonder what the situation is at Caerleon - a place crying out to have the railway station re-built as it is very difficult to get in and out of by road. St. Cadoc’s Hospital recently closed and the land would be ideal for car parking for the locals from outlying housing to reach the re-built station. The former station site is also within walking distance of the Roman remains but at the moment these are very difficult to reach from say Cardiff. Now, I am not suggesting that another stop be made by the long distance trains on The Marches route. What is clearly needed is an all stops service from maybe Cardiff to Abergavenny - where a bay platform could easily be inserted. Thus, the long distance trains could go non stop from Newport to Abergavenny where passengers for the intermediate stops could transfer for Hereford & beyond. So, if the former hospital land has not been secured for a new station/parking, then it would be another example of incompetence by the local planners and those in charge of The Metro project - unless they have a better idea for Caerleon?

    Map of Caerleon area:>https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.6095855,-2.9557936,2402m/data=!3m1!1e3!5m1!1e1
     
  22. stj

    stj Member

    Messages:
    122
    Joined:
    15 Apr 2019
    Has the proposed Parkway at Llanwern been scrapped?
     
  23. Dr Day

    Dr Day Member

    Messages:
    100
    Joined:
    16 Oct 2018
    Location:
    Bristol
    I’m not sure Llanwern was ever proposed as Parkway - more a local-station-with-parking. This will presumably be linked to nearby development taking off on the steelworks site, although the mooted test track and special events stabling I believe are separate. Cardiff Parkway AFAIK is still progressing with private funding and WG support, as are proposals for car park expansion at Severn Tunnel Junction.
     
  24. Envoy

    Envoy Established Member

    Messages:
    1,371
    Joined:
    29 Aug 2014
    What they could do with at STJ is a direct link to the station car park from the M4 by the old toll booths.
     
  25. K.o.R

    K.o.R Member

    Messages:
    467
    Joined:
    6 Dec 2017
    So what is the current state of play regarding the Metro? What is being electrified, and what are the plans for the bits that aren't? (96 pages is just a bit too much to look back through)
     
  26. Cardiff123

    Cardiff123 Member

    Messages:
    823
    Joined:
    10 Mar 2013
    All the info you need is on this website:

    https://tfw.wales/whats-happening-south-east-wales
     
  27. WelshBluebird

    WelshBluebird Established Member

    Messages:
    3,131
    Joined:
    14 Jan 2010
    Of course that is already incorrect and out of date. Sigh.
    I get TfW were dealt a rough hand, but I really wish they would just be honest and come out and say that they are sorry but they are unable to meet their commitments and give us a more realistic timeline.
     
  28. Cardiff123

    Cardiff123 Member

    Messages:
    823
    Joined:
    10 Mar 2013
    Apart from the line about installing TVMs at every South Wales Metro area station by April last year, all the rest of the info is correct.
     
  29. Parallel

    Parallel Established Member

    Messages:
    2,691
    Joined:
    9 Dec 2013
    Having just had a look at the website, the below is interesting:

    Having been to Chepstow station last year, 5 years seems like a long time to wait for investment, especially as it's not a major station and looked to be very tired last time I was there. Also, the adjacent wasteland doesn't really help.

    Anyone know the works planned for Merthyr?
     
  30. Envoy

    Envoy Established Member

    Messages:
    1,371
    Joined:
    29 Aug 2014
    Yes, it is ridiculous that nothing is being done at Chepstow for 5 years - especially in view of the massive traffic jams that the town is now having to endure. They should nab that wasteland now in order to make a station car parking area - which might attract more people to switch to rail. The good news is that the TfW Class 170’s are now coming into service on the stoppers between Cheltenham & Cardiff/ Maesteg. The bad news is that anyone wishing to change trains at Severn Tunnel Junction to/from the Chepstow/Lydney route does not have a good match with services going through the Severn Tunnel.
     

Share This Page