South Wales 'Metro' updates

[B&I]

The coalition they had with Plaid from 08 to 11 at least tried to rebalance transport priority thinking to a degree but Welsh Labour soon ditched any pretense as soon as it went alone.

I think Wales's railway's have suffered from Party Political priorities given the choices of what has been spent in the past and the creation of "core valley lines" if the South Wales Metro turns out to be goodies for the area WG control's but thin gruel elsewhere i can see some internal Labour problems arising. As Ive said before "Core Valley Lines" is in fact North Cardiff, RCT, Merthyr and The Upper Rhymney valley part of Caerphilly only. The Sirhowy and Lower Rhymney part of Caerphilly, Blaenau Gwent, Newport, Torfaen, Monmouthshire, South Cardiff, Vale of Glamorgan, Bridgend, Neath Port Talbot and Swansea is a big area to fob with a self congratulatory press release.

If there is no serious prospect of light rail lines expanding to areas not currently served by heavy rail, what really is the point of light rail conversion, apart from permitting certain aspects of current services to be run in a more cheap and less cheerful fashion ?

 

[158756]

If there is no serious prospect of light rail lines expanding to areas not currently served by heavy rail, what really is the point of light rail conversion, apart from permitting certain aspects of current services to be run in a more cheap and less cheerful fashion ?

It's cheaper, yes. That also means there's more money to spend on other things than the bottomless pit of heavy rail, it's much easier to justify improvements to the service, and you can run a much more frequent service on the same infrastructure.

 

[MarkyT]

If there is no serious prospect of light rail lines expanding to areas not currently served by heavy rail, what really is the point of light rail conversion, apart from permitting certain aspects of current services to be run in a more cheap and less cheerful fashion ?

It's cheaper, yes. That also means there's more money to spend on other things than the bottomless pit of heavy rail, it's much easier to justify improvements to the service, and you can run a much more frequent service on the same infrastructure.

It's unhelpful to use emotive phrases like "cheap and cheerful" and "bottomless pit". Light rail service can be high quality whilst also being cost effective and heavy rail in the right place is not intrinsically a bottomless pit, but might be if badly managed. The fact is that on more lightly used lines, so called 'heavy rail' is becoming 'lighter' anyway with modern units such as FLIRTs, while 'light rail' is becoming heavier in some cases with 'tram-trains', 'light metros' and similar. We are seeing convergence in which techniques from both traditions can be merged to provide custom solutions that bring the best of both. I hope that this will be the case in South Wales.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The devil will be in the detail of what Welsh Government will proclaim as the greatest thing since sliced bread on Monday.

Street running for street runnings sake in Cardiff will dent the budget and preclude extensions. A basic conversion of existing Heavy Rail lines with extensions kicked into the long grass will arguably provide little overall benefit beyond the headline of 4 trams per hour to the heads of the valleys, however the qty of trams bought will determine the success or not. If it turns out to be crush loads and gran handles the complaints will flood in.

 

[gareth950]

The devil will be in the detail of what Welsh Government will proclaim as the greatest thing since sliced bread on Monday.

Street running for street runnings sake in Cardiff will dent the budget and preclude extensions. A basic conversion of existing Heavy Rail lines with extensions kicked into the long grass will arguably provide little overall benefit beyond the headline of 4 trams per hour to the heads of the valleys, however the qty of trams bought will determine the success or not. If it turns out to be crush loads and gran handles the complaints will flood in.

We already know that Ken & Carwyn want on-street trams from Cathays Park to Cardiff Bay via Central, and to quote their best friend at the DfT, said trams will "be running to the exact same route, and to the exact same timings" as the BayCar bus, which already has an electric bus in the fleet.

World class, transformative innovation.

 

[Gareth Marston]

We already know that Ken & Carwyn want on-street trams from Cathays Park to Cardiff Bay via Central, and to quote their best friend at the DfT, said trams will "be running to the exact same route, and to the exact same timings" as the BayCar bus, which already has an electric bus in the fleet.

World class, transformative innovation.

Have you clocked Ken Skstes Tweet of a Stadler Flirt with Metro branding?

https://mobile.twitter.com/wgcs_economy/status/1002840807450251264?s=17

 

[ATW158Xpress]

I seen it earlier and posted a photo on the rolling stock discussion

 

[Gareth Marston]

We already know that Ken & Carwyn want on-street trams from Cathays Park to Cardiff Bay via Central, and to quote their best friend at the DfT, said trams will "be running to the exact same route, and to the exact same timings" as the BayCar bus, which already has an electric bus in the fleet.

World class, transformative innovation.

Welsh Government staff could just flash their staff passes to use the Baycar to travel between Cathays Park and the Bay, however for a reason that might have been security related the procedure changed and a 5 page word document was issued with the procedure of how to catch a bus!

 

[gareth950]

Have you clocked Ken Skstes Tweet of a Stadler Flirt with Metro branding?

https://mobile.twitter.com/wgcs_economy/status/1002840807450251264?s=17

That's a very intriguing picture for these reasons:

• We know the only lines to be electrified are the Valley lines, with the Vale of Glamorgan also done if we're very lucky
• We know 'Metro' is a posh word for the Valley lines
• That pic of what very much looks like a Stadler Flirt is in Metro branding
• We know these are bi-mode, albeit lighter weight, trains

I won't believe anything until the official announcement on Monday.

 

[B&I]

It's cheaper, yes. That also means there's more money to spend on other things than the bottomless pit of heavy rail, it's much easier to justify improvements to the service, and you can run a much more frequent service on the same infrastructure.

But are they planning to do that? Or are they planning to provide a much worse service, albeit one which saves a bit of money from the Welsh transport budget so they can squander it on roads ?

 

[B&I]

It's unhelpful to use emotive phrases like "cheap and cheerful" and "bottomless pit". Light rail service can be high quality whilst also being cost effective and heavy rail in the right place is not intrinsically a bottomless pit, but might be if badly managed. The fact is that on more lightly used lines, so called 'heavy rail' is becoming 'lighter' anyway with modern units such as FLIRTs, while 'light rail' is becoming heavier in some cases with 'tram-trains', 'light metros' and similar. We are seeing convergence in which techniques from both traditions can be merged to provide custom solutions that bring the best of both. I hope that this will be the case in South Wales.

Well I do too. I can see the argument for certain aspects of light rail operation being imported into a system like the Valley Lines eg lighter weight vehicles (which presumably cause less track wear) so long as they carry a sufficient number of people in reasonable comfort. 750v DC electrification would also seem sensible if the routes weren't likely to carry traffic that couldn't manage on that, and so long as it didn't limit through running (though more desirable would be overcoming needless barriers to deployment of 25kv AC). I'm disappointed that the tram-train concept seems to have been such a damp squib, particularly as I thought it could have provided a useful way of improving rural lines which would be unlikely to see it otherwise.

However, I remain dubious that slightly souped-up street tramways are a better means of transport than heavy rail on existing rail alignments in heavily built-up areas and across entire conurbations. I cannot think of anywhere else in Europe which uses light rail in this way to serve conurbations the size of south-east Wales (or Greater Manchester), and I've never been a great believer that we British are so brilliant that we must be in the right when we strike out on our own.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Well I do too. I can see the argument for certain aspects of light rail operation being imported into a system like the Valley Lines eg lighter weight vehicles (which presumably cause less track wear) so long as they carry a sufficient number of people in reasonable comfort. 750v DC electrification would also seem sensible if the routes weren't likely to carry traffic that couldn't manage on that, and so long as it didn't limit through running (though more desirable would be overcoming needless barriers to deployment of 25kv AC). I'm disappointed that the tram-train concept seems to have been such a damp squib, particularly as I thought it could have provided a useful way of improving rural lines which would be unlikely to see it otherwise.

However, I remain dubious that slightly souped-up street tramways are a better means of transport than heavy rail on existing rail alignments in heavily built-up areas and across entire conurbations. I cannot think of anywhere else in Europe which uses light rail in this way to serve conurbations the size of south-east Wales (or Greater Manchester), and I've never been a great believer that we British are so brilliant that we must be in the right when we strike out on our own.

Amsterdam? That's hardly a backwater. They have hybrid metro-tram vehicles that run almost always on segregated track but are equipped with indicators and brake lights.

Tram-trains haven't been a damp squib at all. They're becoming almost common across Europe. The problems in Sheffield are to do with Network Rail ineptitude rather than the validity of the concept.

 

[Del1977]

That's a very intriguing picture for these reasons:

• We know the only lines to be electrified are the Valley lines, with the Vale of Glamorgan also done if we're very lucky
• We know 'Metro' is a posh word for the Valley lines
• That pic of what very much looks like a Stadler Flirt is in Metro branding
• We know these are bi-mode, albeit lighter weight, trains

I won't believe anything until the official announcement on Monday.

Oh that really is interesting. Are they going to be the Valleys trains which were rumoured to be trams, or running to say Ebbw Vale using the electrified section between Cardiff and Newport?

Now it's got me thinking trams on Valley Lines North and Flirts running say VoG to Ebbw Vale via Cardiff Central with maybe additional stops on relief lines? Lots of options if going bi-modes.

 

[Domh245]

The TfW page reveals the extent of the metro:

• Introduce a Central Metro that improves journey times and increases frequency to at least four trains per hour from the head of each using new trains.
  
• Introduce new Metro Vehicles with level boarding by December 2022, which will provide a modern metro-style service to the Treherbert, Aberdare and Merthyr valleys.
• Retain the link from Penarth, Barry and Bridgend to destinations north of Cardiff Central using new tri-mode trains (overhead electric, battery and diesel) from December 2023.
• Build new stations at Loudoun Square, Crwys Road and the Flourish by December 2023 and Gabalfa by 2028. We will relocate Treforest Estate Station by December 2025 to improve safety and convenience.
• Develop a fleet maintenance depot at Taff’s Well and a dedicated Infrastructure Management depot in the Valleys. Both will use local training and development facilities such as Coleg Y Cymoedd.

 

[iantherev]

Interesting. Rhymney seems to be off the Metro agenda. I wonder whether Network Rail have objected due to the freight still using th line south of Ystrad Mynach.

 

[Domh245]

It won't be done to Metro standards (ie not a tram), but it will be part of the metro. It's on the map, but I would guess that it'll be done with the "South Wales DMU" that will be part of the new build.

 

[gareth950]

It won't be done to Metro standards (ie not a tram), but it will be part of the metro. It's on the map, but I would guess that it'll be done with the "South Wales DMU" that will be part of the new build.

Can you provide a source for that map please?

I'm really confused this morning. On the one hand TfW are saying the links between Barry, Penarth and VoG to 'stations north of Cardiff' will be retained, on the other hand it appears that this only means on the Penarth - Rhymney line.
So the Barry & VoG link to Cathays, Llandaf, Radyr etc will be severed? Or will 'tri-mode' trains from Barry & VoG be running through Central, Queen St & Cathays say as far as Radyr alongside tram-trains, or these mysterious 'Metro Vehicles'
There will be 9 tph coming from Penarth, Barry & VoG by 2022, that's too many to send them all up to Rhymney.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So green is CAF DMU, red is FLIRT, blue is tram?

 

[Bwlch y Groes]

The BBC are fairly explicitly talking about tram-trains: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-44316772

"The Metro element will use "tram-train" technology, with light rail cars which can operate on conventional rail as well as in electric tram mode, while tri-mode trains will combine low-emission diesel, battery and 25kV electric power."

But it does seem that city centre running isn't part of this - the only time they will run as trams seems to be down to the Bay. That's better than expected. I'm just waiting to hear what facilities these tram-trains have, how they will operate and how journey times will be affected

 

[Domh245]

Something else I've noticed reading through Ken's speech for later, is that it seems 25kV might still be what goes up in the Valleys "The tri-modes trains will bring together three well proven technologies – diesel, batteries and 25kV electric traction" - no mention of 750V DC tramlines. With my cynical hat on I suppose that could be why these units have batteries, so that they can meet the promise of "100% electric traction on all trains operating on valleys line services which pass through Cardiff Queen Street." whilst also utilising wires at Cardiff Central but everywhere being strung up with tram wires, but that'd seem a very daft system to adopt.

Can you provide a source for that map please?

I'm really confused this morning. On the one hand TfW are saying the links between Barry, Penarth and VoG to 'stations north of Cardiff' will be retained, on the other hand it appears that this only means on the Penarth - Rhymney line.
So the Barry & VoG link to Cathays, Llandaf, Radyr etc will be severed? Or will 'tri-mode' trains from Barry & VoG be running through Central, Queen St & Cathays say as far as Radyr alongside tram-trains, or these mysterious 'Metro Vehicles'
There will be 9 tph coming from Penarth, Barry & VoG by 2022, that's too many to send them all up to Rhymney.

That map was lifted from this video about the franchise (2:05 minutes in). Confusion is par for the course, we've seen a bunch of documents and gone into speculation overdrive - once we start seeing more information and speeches start being delivered, things should start to become clearer.

Links don't have to be direct - they are trumpeting a "multi-modal" system, so it'll be a case of Tri-mode to Queen Street and then change onto a tram (hopefully in a simple and easy fashion)

So green is CAF DMU, red is FLIRT, blue is tram?

Seems to be (although it isn't necessarily a given that the DMUs will be CAFs, after all as detailed in the rolling stock thread it is proving difficult to get the 50% split in terms of welsh built, you would think that if it was higher than 50% they'd be shouting it from the rooftops - unless they're also going to be importing some units from Spain, does anyone know what the capacity of their welsh plant will be in terms of output)

But it does seem that city centre running isn't part of this - the only time they will run as trams seems to be down to the Bay. That's better than expected. I'm just waiting to hear what facilities these tram-trains have, how they will operate and how journey times will be affected

For now! Quoting from Kens speech as linked at the top of this post:

"The Metro Vehicles will use a technology often referred to as Tram-Train. They will operate under Heavy Rail regulations on conventional railway, but will be capable of use in Light Rail (or Tram) mode for extendibility. To ensure all bidders offered a future–proof solution from the outset, the contract requires a short section of on-street running in Cardiff Bay. This is intended as a trial with a view to utilising this increasing flexibility to then expand the network in future."

&

"As I have said previously, on-board toilets will be retained on all new and existing trains. On the new Metro Vehicles which will operate a turn up and go service featuring level boarding on the Taff Vale and City lines (i.e. services to Merthyr, Aberdare and Treherbert), the maximum travel time to a universally accessible toilet will be 14 minutes, with 95% of journeys being within 10 minutes.

Furthermore, the last services each day will include provision for a break in service mid-point for passengers to use the facilities should they wish to do so. This will be advertised and be part of the formal service provision."

 

[Bwlch y Groes]

Ah. So just trying to get my head around this - it looks as if we'll still have 6tph from Merthyr, Aberdare and Treherbert to Cardiff Central over the existing route. The additional 6tph that are being introduced are essentially all going to the Bay. That's a lot better than those earlier maps suggested

Also noticed the Coryton-Radyr services are broken up - will be interesting to see the reaction to that in Cardiff

 

[Bletchleyite]

"As I have said previously, on-board toilets will be retained on all new and existing trains. On the new Metro Vehicles which will operate a turn up and go service featuring level boarding on the Taff Vale and City lines (i.e. services to Merthyr, Aberdare and Treherbert), the maximum travel time to a universally accessible toilet will be 14 minutes, with 95% of journeys being within 10 minutes.

So we're talking facilities at stations rather than on-board I guess - the way that reads is that it's probably going to be one at each terminus and Queen St obviously already has them - but possibly longer hours?

Furthermore, the last services each day will include provision for a break in service mid-point for passengers to use the facilities should they wish to do so. This will be advertised and be part of the formal service provision."

The last tram will sit at Queen St for 10 minutes for people to go for a wee?

 

[krus_aragon]

From the aforementioned speech:

The symbol of underinvestment in Wales, the Pacer fleet, will be removed entirely from the network by the end of 2019.

The Pacer: the symbol of underinvestment in Wales!

 

[krus_aragon]

So we're talking facilities at stations rather than on-board I guess - the way that reads is that it's probably going to be one at each terminus and Queen St obviously already has them - but possibly longer hours?

The last tram will sit at Queen St for 10 minutes for people to go for a wee?

And also Pontypridd (& Caerphilly), I'd guess.

 

[PaulHarding150]

The last tram will sit at Queen St for 10 minutes for people to go for a wee?

And also Pontypridd (& Caerphilly), I'd guess.

It's like taking a toddler out:

Do you need to go to the toilet?
No.
Are you sure?
Yes.
Can you just try, just in case?

 

[gareth950]

This is why I'm confused. From here: http://tfw.gov.wales/whats-happening-south-east-wales

• Retain the link from Penarth, Barry and Bridgend to destinations north of Cardiff Central (they are not saying just specifically the Rhymney line) using new tri-mode trains (overhead electric, battery and diesel) from December 2023.

Also,

• 2tph between Cardiff and Bridgend via Vale of Glamorgan from December 2023.

Why wait 5 years to do that? VoG is double track throughout, CASR allows it already, do it this December!

 

[gareth950]

More detail from here: https://gov.wales/about/cabinet/cabinetstatements/2018/railservicesupdate/?lang=en

The solution for the South Wales Metro will increase services to four services per hour to each of the heads of the Valleys north of Cardiff Queen Street; from 2022 for Aberdare, Treherbert and Merthyr, and 2023 for Rhymney services. Working across government, we aim to extend the Coryton branch to the proposed new Velindre hospital, and in doing so increase services on that line to 4 per hour.
(How, when as he goes on to say below, Coryton will be tri-mode trains? Re-double the Coryton branch?)

The Metro Vehicles will use a technology often referred to as Tram-Train. They will operate under Heavy Rail regulations on conventional railway, but will be capable of use in Light Rail (or Tram) mode for extendibility. To ensure all bidders offered a future–proof solution from the outset, the contract requires a short section of on-street running in Cardiff Bay. This is intended as a trial with a view to utilising this increasing flexibility to then expand the network in future.
(Which suggests on the MTA lines these new tram-trains will still be using the conventional HR colour signals, and there will be no on-street running through Cardiff city centre, just in Cardiff Bay, with tram-trains continuing to use the existing HR Queen St - Central link)

And finally:

• A fleet of modern and highly accessible on street capable Metro Vehicles to serve the Taff Vale and City lines and new, innovative tri-mode trains for the Rhymney, Coryton, Penarth, Barry and Vale of Glamorgan lines to allow for through services to the non electrified lines south and west of Cardiff Central.

 

[krus_aragon]

Also,

• 2tph between Cardiff and Bridgend via Vale of Glamorgan from December 2023.

Why wait 5 years to do that? VoG is double track throughout, CASR allows it already, do it this December!

Rolling stock? (Admittedly, you could source some cascaded stock sooner than 2023.)

 

[Gareth Marston]

Some of the more stinging criticism from myself and others does appear to have been taken on board.

• There's no turfing out passengers at Central and hacking around the layout to accommodate trains at one end and trams at another.
• CASR improvements stay on the core section from Central to Queen St and on to the Rhymney and Coryton lines North East and VOG South and West.
  
• There's no pointless street running in the city centre - extending in the Bay is fine.

 

[krus_aragon]

More detail from here: https://gov.wales/about/cabinet/cabinetstatements/2018/railservicesupdate/?lang=en
...
To ensure all bidders offered a future–proof solution from the outset, the contract requires a short section of on-street running in Cardiff Bay. This is intended as a trial with a view to utilising this increasing flexibility to then expand the network in future.

Combining this with the new stations at "Loudoun Square" and "The Flourish", I anticipate a new station on the current alignment half way along Bute Road, and then a street-running extension beyond the current Cardiff Bay station toward the Flourish.