South-West - Bristol - Manchester HS2

[Purple Orange]

The south west cross country services are losing out when it comes a post HS2 landscape and there will be calls for Manchester - Bristol services to continue. Given there is to be a junction north of Crewe to bring HS2 trains from the WCML back on to the HS2 line, could this be facilitated to allow Bristol - Birmingham New Street - Manchester HS2 services? This would keep towns like Wolverhampton and Stafford linked with a fast Manchester service and remove a long distance XC train from the network. This could especially be possible if a rolling electrification programme includes Bristol - Birmingham and the Liverpool NPR lone does not materialise. A possible service pattern could be:

Bristol - Cheltenham - Birmingham New Street - Wolverhampton - Stafford - Crewe - Manchester Airport HS2 - Manchester Piccadilly HS2 - Huddersfield - Leeds - York - Darlington - Durham - Newcastle - Berwick - Edinburgh

 

[stuu]

My crayon-based musings have always been that it would be better to connect SW services to the Eastern branch, as that is so much slower. Somewhere near Tamworth perhaps

 

[Purple Orange]

My crayon-based musings have always been that it would be better to connect SW services to the Eastern branch, as that is so much slower. Somewhere near Tamworth perhaps

How would they get on to the eastern branch though? The only north facing connection is at Crewe. However it all depends on what happens to the eastern branch and whether it's construction is delayed, plus building a north facing junction too. As things stand, the fastest route will become via Manchester rather than via Sheffield to Edinburgh. However it’s not just about XC to Newcastle & Scotland. Bristol - Manchester is still a market that needs serving and it might be wise to join it up with an NPR service towards Leeds.

 

[stuu]

Obviously it would need a new connection, but any improvements would need new infrastructure, electrification to Bristol at least as I imagine there is no chance HS2 will allow anything with tanks full of diesel into their tunnels. Bristol to Manchester times won't change significantly by using HS2 from Crewe to Manchester, the eastern side is far slower.

 

[Purple Orange]

Obviously it would need a new connection, but any improvements would need new infrastructure, electrification to Bristol at least as I imagine there is no chance HS2 will allow anything with tanks full of diesel into their tunnels. Bristol to Manchester times won't change significantly by using HS2 from Crewe to Manchester, the eastern side is far slower.

I’m confused by what you mean as the eastern side being far slower. Slower than what?

 

[stuu]

The XC service on the eastern side of the Pennines

 

[Purple Orange]

The XC service on the eastern side of the Pennines

It’s not necessarily an either/or situation - this is just combining services. The fastest route to Manchester from Bristol would be by using HS2 north of Crewe (if Brum-Bristol is electrified). There will be Manchester-Leeds-Newcastle services, which will be connected through to HS2 therefore why not connect the two services if it is possible and paths allow it? I think this scenario would only happen if the Liverpool NPR line didn’t happen.

 

[stuu]

It’s not necessarily an either/or situation - this is just combining services. The fastest route to Manchester from Bristol would be by using HS2 north of Crewe (if Brum-Bristol is electrified). There will be Manchester-Leeds-Newcastle services, which will be connected through to HS2 therefore why not connect the two services if it is possible and paths allow it? I think this scenario would only happen if the Liverpool NPR line didn’t happen.

BHM-Crewe is over an hour now, and if all of NPR is built it's still going to be nearly an hour from Crewe-Leeds, so around 2 hours for BHM-Leeds. Leeds-Birmingham is 2 hours on XC now

Services from Bristol joining HS2 in Crewe will save maybe 10 minutes. Joining in Birmingham would be a dramatic improvement though

 

[The Planner]

There will be a HS2 junction south of Crewe at Basford Hall so that is possible if they wanted to do it, subject to clearing all the routes for HS2 stock etc etc...

Ignore that, brain fart as it doesn't apply to this.

 

[ABB125]

If only there was a connection somewhere in central Birmingham...

 

[Purple Orange]

BHM-Crewe is over an hour now, and if all of NPR is built it's still going to be nearly an hour from Crewe-Leeds, so around 2 hours for BHM-Leeds. Leeds-Birmingham is 2 hours on XC now

Services from Bristol joining HS2 in Crewe will save maybe 10 minutes. Joining in Birmingham would be a dramatic improvement though

It’s not just about Bristol, Birmingham & Crewe though. Through the south Manchester tunnel, there will be a total of 14 paths, 4 of which are dedicated for non-passenger movements. That leaves 3 x London, 2 Birmingham and 4 Liverpool, plus 1 spare. On the other side of Piccadilly there will be 6 Leeds paths that need linking with a service through south Manchester. 4 of the Leeds services will go to Liverpool, but the question remains as to what to do with the other 2. They could all go to Curzon Street. However there is still an available path. Wolverhampton and Stafford will still want a fast Manchester service, which is planned to be provided by the existing XC services. Instead of taking a path through Stockport, why not make use of the available path via HS2 given the infrastructure will be there? You’re right that it would be better for Bristol services to join at Birmingham, but that infrastructure is not there.

Joining at the HS2 junction north of Crewe would save 20 minutes.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

The south west cross country services are losing out when it comes a post HS2 landscape and there will be calls for Manchester - Bristol services to continue.

Hasn’t Bristol to Manchester already been effectively discontinued, doesn’t seem any desire by XC to resume this service in either May 2021 or Dec 2021.

 

[The Planner]

Hasn’t Bristol to Manchester already been effectively discontinued, doesn’t seem any desire by XC to resume this service in either May 2021 or Dec 2021.

Where has it been said it wont return in Dec?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Where has it been said it wont return in Dec?

I haven’t said it won’t, what I said is there currently doesn’t seem to be any desire currently but instead to stick with the longer but less frequent services. XC having indicated their Dec 21 is largely a roll forward.

 

[HSTEd]

Honestly, given the engineering challenges of a Birmingham interconnection line to the South West, I would suggest the best bet would simply be to run Birmingham-SW trains out of Moor Street for easy connections.

 

[Purple Orange]

Honestly, given the engineering challenges of a Birmingham interconnection line to the South West, I would suggest the best bet would simply be to run Birmingham-SW trains out of Moor Street for easy connections.

Not a bad shout. It’s hardly any distance and the two stations combined are no bigger than the footprint of many other large termini.

 

[Ianno87]

Not a bad shout. It’s hardly any distance and the two stations combined are no bigger than the footprint of many other large termini.

Which would also help connections from Bristol onto HS2 Scotland services, plus a faster connection to reach York/Newcastle.

I'm almost of the view that Curzon Street / Moor Street should simply be named as one station.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Honestly, given the engineering challenges of a Birmingham interconnection line to the South West, I would suggest the best bet would simply be to run Birmingham-SW trains out of Moor Street for easy connections.

Its a shame they're isn't a chord onto East to West Rail from HS2 then at services from the North East could be routed via Birmingham Interchange and onto Bristol that way!

 

[Purple Orange]

Which would also help connections from Bristol onto HS2 Scotland services, plus a faster connection to reach York/Newcastle.

I'm almost of the view that Curzon Street / Moor Street should simply be named as one station.

Yet this presupposes that people will change trains. My own view is that it is always better to change trains if it is faster, while others value a direct service even if it is slower. Over time only one will win out, because train paths are valuable and they should go to the service that the most people wish to use.

 

[The Planner]

Its a shame they're isn't a chord onto East to West Rail from HS2 then at services from the North East could be routed via Birmingham Interchange and onto Bristol that way!

Would be quicker to walk to New St and get a XC than that!

 

[Halifaxlad]

Would be quicker to walk to New St and get a XC than that!

From which direction are you coming from ?

 

[Ianno87]

Yet this presupposes that people will change trains. My own view is that it is always better to change trains if it is faster, while others value a direct service even if it is slower. Over time only one will win out, because train paths are valuable and they should go to the service that the most people wish to use.

Also, for longer distance journeys like Bristol-Manchester, pricing will matter. People will change trains if it gives a favourable fare, as well as where there is a journey time advantage.

Plus for Bristol-Manchester, if there remain 2tph Bristol-Birmingham in some form, then at least one decent connection is likely to be available each hour at Curzon Street for an onward hourly HS2 service (even better for the 2tph HS2 services to Manchester and Leeds)

 

[The Planner]

From which direction are you coming from ?

The North East, how is it going to be quicker to carry on HS2 to Calvert, then go to Bristol from there?

 

[HSTEd]

The North East, how is it going to be quicker to carry on HS2 to Calvert, then go to Bristol from there?

As far as I can tell, a chord at Old Oak Common would have a reasonable chance of being competitive on Birmingham-Bristol!

(Not quite, but close enough to be simply silly)

 

[BayPaul]

I still think a massive trick is being missed not putting a chord to the camp Hill lines just outside the throat of Curzon Street. It would allow trains from Manchester / the NE / Scotland to reverse in Curzon Street and continue towards Bristol. It doesn't look impossible in engineering terms, though a little demolition would be needed, and the cost would be a tiny addition to the HS2 budget, but it would bring huge benefits, allowing the existing basic XC patterns to be retained without changes, just massively sped up N of Birmingham, with semi-fast regional electric services taking over the intermediate stopping services on the classic lines.

Obviously either electrification, bi modes or loco haulage of HS2 classic compatible stock would be needed.

I'm a huge fan of HS2, for me, this modification would make it even better, and make it more of a national scheme, bringing real benefits to the whole of the SW, and also South Wales, which would surely be politically very useful as well.

 

[Snow1964]

There is some sort of connection just south of Birmingham International, and the new line is not far from the closed Berkswell-Kenilworth line.

That got me thinking, could rejoin the cross country line south from Leamington. But then it occurred, would it be quicker if say a spur to the East-West line near Bicester was built and trains ran via Oxford and a gently curved Didcot western spur towards Bristol.

Could possibly run alternate trains to South coast and South West doing that, or even have half trains that combine north of Oxford

Apart from Cheltenham (and others not directly on line of route) is there a big need to stop at anything between Birmingham and Bristol

 

[BayPaul]

There is some sort of connection just south of Birmingham International, and the new line is not far from the closed Berkswell-Kenilworth line.

That got me thinking, would it be quicker if say a spur to the East-West line near Bicester was built and trains ran via Oxford and a gently curved Didcot western spur towards Bristol

Apart from Cheltenham (and others not directly on line of route) is there a big need to stop at anything between Birmingham and Bristol

Trouble is that there is no capacity south of Birmingham International - any XC train going south of there will use a London path.

 

[The Planner]

There is some sort of connection just south of Birmingham International, and the new line is not far from the closed Berkswell-Kenilworth line.

That got me thinking, could rejoin the cross country line south from Leamington. But then it occurred, would it be quicker if say a spur to the East-West line near Bicester was built and trains ran via Oxford and a gently curved Didcot western spur towards Bristol.

Could possibly run alternate trains to South coast and South West doing that, or even have half trains that combine north of Oxford

Apart from Cheltenham (and others not directly on line of route) is there a big need to stop at anything between Birmingham and Bristol

There is no connection between HS2 and the classic network between Handsacre and Calvert, and even Calvert is just a maintenance connection into the yard.

As far as I can tell, a chord at Old Oak Common would have a reasonable chance of being competitive on Birmingham-Bristol!

(Not quite, but close enough to be simply silly)

How would you do that when its in a tunnel there? There is no way the North East, passing Birmingham, Old Oak Common, then Bristol would be competitive at all.

 

[Snow1964]

There is no connection between HS2 and the classic network between Handsacre and Calvert, and even Calvert is just a maintenance connection into the yard.


How would you do that when its in a tunnel there? There is no way the North East, passing Birmingham, Old Oak Common, then Bristol would be competitive at all.

I wasn’t thinking of a slow speed maintenance link line, more of French LGV type spurs with 200-220km/h (125-135mph)

Similarly a long high speed spur from near Abingdon towards Swindon avoiding the 2 track bit west of Didcot. Then extend the 4 tracks to Wooten Bassett. I would also include proper flying junctions at both ends of Bristol parkway, so no conflicting moves. It might be longer Birmingham-Bristol but ought to be faster

As for no capacity south of Birmingham International, is there really no spare train paths. In theory it would be similar to how some French TGVs use the interconnection line rather than going into Paris Nord, or Gare de Lyon. Not everyone wants to go to London.

 

[BayPaul]

I wasn’t thinking of a slow speed maintenance link line, more of French LGV type spurs with 200-220km/h (125-135mph)

Similarly a long high speed spur from near Abingdon towards Swindon avoiding the 2 track bit west of Didcot. Then extend the 4 tracks to Wooten Bassett. I would also include proper flying junctions at both ends of Bristol parkway, so no conflicting moves. It might be longer Birmingham-Bristol but ought to be faster

As for no capacity south of Birmingham International, is there really no spare train paths. In theory it would be similar to how some French TGVs use the interconnection line rather than going into Paris Nord, or Gare de Lyon. Not everyone wants to go to London.

Yes, there really are no spare train paths. The final phase 2b plan uses all of them, and all very sensibly too, there is nothing obvious to drop. But also, if you are doing all the work you suggest, why do 2 sides of the triangle, rather than taking the train off HS2 tracks at Birmingham, where there is capacity, and upgrading the Birmingham to Bristol line instead