SOUTH WEST TRAINS have cancelled my MEGATRAIN ticket to sell for higher price.

[LondonJohn]

There is a small, but rather significant difference! If I have understood you correctly LondonJohn.

In your case the service was cancelled because of engineering works. The physical train was not gong to run.

In this case it is merely the Megatrain tickets that have been cancelled. The train will still be running. The actual train service has not been delayed or cancelled.


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Oh I understand but the way that I see this is that the SOUTH WEST TRAIN will be physically operating. But the op does not have a ticket with SWT. The MEGATRAIN journey has been cancelled by MEGATRAIN the operator. This is the journey that the op has purchased a ticket for. Although Megatrain is owned by the same parent company as SWT it is a seperate legal entity as the op does not have a contract with SWT whose service is running. The parent company are foolish to sell tickets via their Megatrain entity if they didn't want to offer discounted travel in this period.

What you are implying is that by saying Megatrain and South West Trains are the same which when they are not its like saying an apple is an orange. Still bad customer service but don't think you would have a leg to stand on.

 

[TEW]

It doesn't matter who the contract is with, Megatrain are failing to fulfil their contractual obligations which they can't do. Writing to them telling them that it is unacceptable and you expect them to provide the contracted transport would probably be a good idea, and if they refuse, sue them for breach of contract and claim damages for any extra expense you incurred. Being cancelled because of engineering works is different, but it's still pretty shoddy, most the time if you're sold an Advance ticket the TOC already knows about any engineering work going on at the time.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

On the basis of the information presented on here, and a little research on my part, then it appears to me that Megatrain are operating entirely within the terms agreed when their (exceptionally cheap) tickets are offered.

I don't see any point in pretending not to have read emails, the fact remains that they have decided not to honour their contractual obligations.

sue Megatrain ..........

That's what I'd do.

At your own risk. I do not advise it and cannot support it.

I also refer you to OwlMan's post

What about the following under General Notice (my highlight)

megabus.com has the right to cancel reservations (whether or not confirmed) of any customer whenever such action is necessary to comply with any governmental regulation, upon any governmental request for emergency transportation in connection with the national defense, or whenever such action is necessary or advisable by reason of weather or other conditions beyond Megabus' control, including Force Majeure events.

Also the contract is subject to Scottish Law, not English (stated in T&C).

Also legally Megabus and SW Trains are separate companies (although both owned by the same holding company)

That last point seems to have been misunderstood by some people on here.

 

[jkdd77]

On the basis of the information presented on here, and a little research on my part, then it appears to me that Megatrain are operating entirely within the terms agreed when their (exceptionally cheap) tickets are offered.At your own risk. I do not advise it and cannot support it.

I also refer you to OwlMan's postThat last point seems to have been

The contract allows for cancellation if and only if the specified circumstances apply. None of the reasons in the contract that can be given for legitimate cancellation apply here, since there is no "force majeure" here- there is nothing "beyond Megabus's control".

The cheapness of the ticket is of absolutely no relevance whatsoever.

In addition, the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 specifically prohibit terms in consumer contracts giving the business a unilateral cancellation right without good reason.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1999/2083/schedule/2/made
1. Terms which have the object or effect of–
(c) making an agreement binding on the consumer whereas provision of services by the seller or supplier is subject to a condition whose realisation depends on his own will alone;

(f) authorising the seller or supplier to dissolve the contract on a discretionary basis where the same facility is not granted to the consumer, or permitting the seller or supplier to retain the sums paid for services not yet supplied by him where it is the seller or supplier himself who dissolves the contract

(n) limiting the seller’s or supplier’s obligation to respect commitments undertaken by his agents or making his commitments subject to compliance with a particular formality;

Whilst the UTCCR do not apply to contractual terms that reflect statutory or regulatory provisions (arguably including the NRCoC and the respective franchise agreements), there is nothing in the NRCoC or, to the best of my knowledge, the franchise agreements, which permits or mandates unilateral termination of contract without justification.

Based on the information stated I am absolutely certain that Megabus and/or SWT are in breach of contract, and would happily bet my life savings that a civil claim by the OP against Megabus/ SWT, if properly presented, would succeed.

Condition 1 of the NRCoC states:
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/nrcc/NRCOC.pdf
1. Your contract
A ticket that has been issued to you is evidence of a contract between you and each Train Company whose trains you have the right to use. Where the company selling you the ticket is not one of the Train Companies on whose services you are travelling, the seller is acting as agent for the Train Company or Companies in whose trains you are entitled to travel.

Based on the above, it appears that Megabus are acting as agents of South West Trains in selling the ticket, and the contract has actually been entered into with South West Trains. The Megabus website claims that the contract for travel is governed by the NRCoC, as amended by its own T&Cs.

I would very strongly advise bringing such a claim, if all other avenues (such as internal complaints/ Passenger Focus/ media) fail.

 

[Class 33]

That is shocking and disgraceful treatment by Megatrain/Megabus. OK it's one thing that cheap fares are not available during the Olympics. Fair enough. But for you to have purchased one of the cheap tickets, and then a week later SWT decides not to have cheap fares available during this period and to then go and CANCEL your purchased ticket is disgraceful. You purchased your ticket at that fare in good faith you would be travelling at that fare, NOT for them to go and cancel your ticket and that your ticket would now not be valid. Disgraceful. They should honour all tickets(however cheap they were priced at) originally purchased. Also them not replying back to your emails. Disgraceful. I've never heard of a situation like this before.

If I were you I would write a full letter of complaint to Megatrain/Megabus. And send it recorded delivery. As otherwise they might pretend they never received it!

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . .
I would very strongly advise bringing such a claim, . . . .

You are at liberty to advocate such action, but to do so will be at your own peril.
I'm obliged to note my dissent, in the interests of other members on here who may be taking comfort from advice they read on here.
I cannot give encouragment to any member who is impressed by your advice, but will be very pleased to hear from you when a date is determined for the hearing and I will assure you now that I will make every effort to ensure that I, or one of my colleagues, is present at that hearing to observe and if wished for, to offer advice.

. . . . and would happily bet my life savings that a civil claim by the OP against Megabus, if properly presented, would succeed.

I have no interest in your life savings.
I accept that any party to a challenge may conceed at any point for a variety of reasons, and perhaps you have an expectation that the Company might relent for fear of adverse publicity or judgements.
I'd assumed that that was not your point, and that you had pre-determined that the Company had, in Law, erred.

 

[yorkie]

Has anyone contacted Megatrain/Megabus (or Stagecoach Group) in the position of a prospective customer, merely enquiring (politely) if a potential booking they make will be honoured?

enquiries@megabus.com

An email that is polite, concise*, and assertive is more likely to get a good result.

As always I am happy to proof read.

This approach often works! (to use a recent example someone got a good answer out of FCC in the prosecution for following the journey planner case)

* If you're unsure what concise means, look it up, as I always recommend keeping things concise, but some of the letters / summaries are like huge essays, this will result in me not being able to help, and the TOC being less likely to read it all.

 

[Clip]

That is shocking and disgraceful treatment by Megatrain/Megabus. OK it's one thing that cheap fares are not available during the Olympics. Fair enough. But for you to have purchased one of the cheap tickets, and then a week later SWT decides not to have cheap fares available during this period and to then go and CANCEL your purchased ticket is disgraceful. You purchased your ticket at that fare in good faith you would be travelling at that fare, NOT for them to go and cancel your ticket and that your ticket would now not be valid. Disgraceful. They should honour all tickets(however cheap they were priced at) originally purchased. Also them not replying back to your emails. Disgraceful. I've never heard of a situation like this before.

If I were you I would write a full letter of complaint to Megatrain/Megabus. And send it recorded delivery. As otherwise they might pretend they never received it!

Its worth pointing out here that you have to treat Megatrain and SWT as 2 separate entities. Your contract is with Megatrain first and foremost is it not? They are just another 3rd party seller of train tickets whereas SWT are the provider of the service so your contract is only with Megatrain and if SWT have cancelled the journies available with Megatrain then these are conditions beyond Megatrains control. Therefore a refund is the only course of action available.


I am no legal eagle with regards to this but thats just my view in it. Same as if you booked a holiday with a company but your flights were cancelled by say, Easyjet even though the flight still flew, you still only have redress with the travel agent.

 

[talltim]

They might be seperate companies, but this quote surely shows the confusion between the two. Who decided that there wouldn't be any Megatrain tickets?

Originally Posted by SWT quote from Miss JJ33
South West Trains are not offering any megatrain services from Monday 23 July - Saturday 8 September 2012. This period covers the Opening Ceremony (on Fri 27 July) to the end of the Paralympics. We are expecting a high demand for our trains over the summer period both to and from London. Megatrain was set up to offer low cost travel on services with available capacity and with the anticipated demand generated by the Olympics, Paralympics and various cultural events; we felt it inappropriate to offer megatrain services during this period.

 

[lyndhurst25]

If they were entirely separate companies and SWT has done the dirty on Megatrain by not honouring tickets that have been sold then, if I were Megatrain, I'd be looking at suing SWT for the cost of refunding and compensating my customers. Any chance of this happening or would they just collude to maximise Stagecoach group profits? They're about as separate as Vauxhall and Opel or ebay and PayPal.

 

[Brucey]

I've just done some investigating to see what the corporate structure of Stagecoach was (more out of interest than to prove anything).

Megatrain is a trading name of Stagecoach Group plc.

South West Trains is a trading name of Stagecoach South Western Trains Limited.
This is 100% owned by Stagecoach Rail Holdings Limited.
Which is 100% owned by The Integrated Transport Company Limited.
And that's owned 100% by Stagecoach Transport Holdings Limited.
Finally, that's 100% owned by Stagecoach Group plc.

So it would appear that Stagecoach Group plc is acting as an agent of it's subsidiary. This means Megatrain and SWT are different companies.

 

[lyndhurst25]

I've just done some investigating to see what the corporate structure of Stagecoach was (more out of interest than to prove anything).

Megatrain is a trading name of Stagecoach Group plc.

South West Trains is a trading name of Stagecoach South Western Trains Limited.
This is 100% owned by Stagecoach Rail Holdings Limited.
Which is 100% owned by The Integrated Transport Company Limited.
And that's owned 100% by Stagecoach Transport Holdings Limited.
Finally, that's 100% owned by Stagecoach Group plc.

So it would appear that Stagecoach Group plc is acting as an agent of it's subsidiary. This means Megatrain and SWT are different companies.

Why so complicated? It must create a lot of unnecessary work regarding company registrations, accounts, lawyers, etc. Perhaps Stagecoach is set up like this to keep all the people employed in their head office busy and happy in their work? Nothing to do with tax or absolving responsibility at all.

 

[Flying Snail]

I've just done some investigating to see what the corporate structure of Stagecoach was (more out of interest than to prove anything).

Megatrain is a trading name of Stagecoach Group plc.

South West Trains is a trading name of Stagecoach South Western Trains Limited.
This is 100% owned by Stagecoach Rail Holdings Limited.
Which is 100% owned by The Integrated Transport Company Limited.
And that's owned 100% by Stagecoach Transport Holdings Limited.
Finally, that's 100% owned by Stagecoach Group plc.

So it would appear that Stagecoach Group plc is acting as an agent of it's subsidiary. This means Megatrain and SWT are different companies.

Whatever way you cut it they are all 100% owned by the same entity, technically they could be seen as seperate companies but in reality they are not.

Megatrain is little more than a brand used as a front end by the Stagecoach rail companies to sell off excess capacity on their off peak trains.

It is pretty obvious that someone in Stagecoach failed to de-list the regular megatrain services for the dates they are going to be unusually busy for the olympics. When this error was discovered instead of honouring the tickets already sold they apparently think they can get away with refunding the fares and nothing else.

If they can legally do this with no more consequence than refunding the fare then it essentially makes any megatrain ticket a liability for the purchaser.
Assuming Stagecoach are apparently free to cancel megatrain bookings on a whim based on the spurious justification that (any Stagecoach TOC) has cancelled the legally seperate Megatrain company service without the actual train service having been cancelled. As there is no reason they could not do this at any point up to departure it leaves all megatrain customers facing the potential of having to buy a walk-up fare for any megatrain journey they have purchased.

If this is legal then it shouldn't be, a disgraceful way of carrying on that is clearly grossly unfair to the consumer.

Somebody earlier said they were taking a leaf out of Ryanair's book but even that notorious bunch of gougers do not stoop so low as to cancel on paper a service so as to re-book the seats at a higher price.

I have no problem with the rail companies restricting or delisting discounted fares for the olympics or other high volume events but in this case it was their mistake that the fares were offered they should take the hit and honour them.

 

[island]

Whatever way you cut it they are all 100% owned by the same entity, technically they could be seen as seperate companies but in reality they are not.

Let me assure you that a court will not see it that way. If I incorporate three companies, Island Limited, Island (No. 1) Limited, and Island (No. 2) Limited, and make Island Limited the holding company of the other two, then have Island (No. 1) Limited borrow £100,000 from a bank, the bank can most certainly not hold Island Limited or Island (No. 2) Limited liable for the debt if Island (No. 1) Limited fails to pay. That is a basic principle of limited liability.

I agree that it is at the very least unfair and morally wrong for Stagecoach to purport to cancel the bookings in this instance, and I endorse yorkie's recommendation to just ask them, and then see after that. The Times money pages, Which? or a similar organization might be able to be of assistance.

 

[yorkie]

Why so complicated? It must create a lot of unnecessary work regarding company registrations, accounts, lawyers, etc. Perhaps Stagecoach is set up like this to keep all the people employed in their head office busy and happy in their work? Nothing to do with tax or absolving responsibility at all.

Rest assured, Brian Souter knows exactly what he is doing. Be careful though, say something mean about Brian (who, really, does nothing wrong and is a really nice guy, honestly, it's all a conspiracy and everyone else is wrong! ) and his criminal son has been known to attack.

Anyway, I would definitely go to the media with this story, as it appears Stagecoach are not prepared to act honourably, but just before you do, contact media@stagecoachgroup.com and let them know to expect the story.

Perhaps they want you to book a replacement ticket at additional cost because anger classes are quite expensive, and the money has to come from somewhere!

 

[bnm]

Post deleted

 

[jon0844]

If they can legally do this with no more consequence than refunding the fare then it essentially makes any megatrain ticket a liability for the purchaser.

Rather like when Ryanair have refunded customers (in the past, I think the rules are different now) rather than arrange alternative transport, hotels etc because of a plane fault, which can often mean there weren't enough tickets sold. Give the money back and wash their hands of them.

I'd not buy a ticket where it could be cancelled at any time, such as when Stagecoach just got a group booking and they decide that my seat can easily be given up.

Fair enough they don't want to operate the megatrain service during the Olympics. Any tickets sold by mistake are simply honoured and no new ones sold. Nice and easy - and nobody 'gets hurt'.

I am not sure this isn't already something to take to the media (Watchdog perhaps) as it's not just the individual incident but the potential problems for the future if this is deemed to be acceptable business practice.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Anyway, I would definitely go to the media with this story, as it appears Stagecoach are not prepared to act honourably, but just before you do, contact media@stagecoachgroup.com and let them know to expect the story.

Don't do that - they'll almost certainly cave in and give him a free (most likely first class) ticket as a goodwill gesture, in return for not saying anything else!

That's too easy!

 

[lyndhurst25]

It's a rather pointless ad hominem attack.


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True, but it's still quite amusing to know what's been going on in the Souter family.

All this "it's nothing to do with us, blame our subsidiary company" nonsense looks like it's gradually (and rightly IMHO) being eroded, at least with regard to Health & Safety laws. I doubt that the High Court would want to get involved over a cheapo train ticket though. See -
www.fool.co.uk/news/investing/2012/05/29/the-legal-threat-to-every-blue-chip.aspx

 

[WelshBluebird]

There have been a couple of people talking about pretending as if the OP did not see the email, with others suggesting against it.
Out of curiosity, what would be the case if you genuinely hadn't?
Quite a few times I have booked train tickets online, and then not had internet access between that time and when I was due to travel, so really would not have seen such an email. While such a situation is less likely here because of the length of time involve, it is still certainly possible.

 

[Wolfie]

You are at liberty to advocate such action, but to do so will be at your own peril.
I'm obliged to note my dissent, in the interests of other members on here who may be taking comfort from advice they read on here.
I cannot give encouragment to any member who is impressed by your advice, but will be very pleased to hear from you when a date is determined for the hearing and I will assure you now that I will make every effort to ensure that I, or one of my colleagues, is present at that hearing to observe and if wished for, to offer advice.
I have no interest in your life savings.
I accept that any party to a challenge may conceed at any point for a variety of reasons, and perhaps you have an expectation that the Company might relent for fear of adverse publicity or judgements.
I'd assumed that that was not your point, and that you had pre-determined that the Company had, in Law, erred.

Well, cynically it costs £35 to file in County Court small claims track. If everyone affected (intersting question, how many have had this stunt pulled on them?) does this the SWT/Stagecoast legal costs will be VERY significant, particularly as an individual in a legal dispute with a company gets to pick the venue at their convenience - perhaps Mr Souter's solicitors may have to be VERY mobile!!!!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

There have been a couple of people talking about pretending as if the OP did not see the email, with others suggesting against it.
Out of curiosity, what would be the case if you genuinely hadn't?....

Not been in that situation, but as the discussion concerns an SWT train, I'd wager a Penalty Fare would be given if there were ticket facilities at the departure station, or a new ticket if not. The passenger would then have to sort the problem with the agent (Megatrain), who would probably wash their hands of it claiming the passenger had been adequately informed.

....Quite a few times I have booked train tickets online, and then not had internet access between that time and when I was due to travel, so really would not have seen such an email. While such a situation is less likely here because of the length of time involve, it is still certainly possible.

A Megatrain ticket is simply a reference number (which is checked against a database), aiui, so unlike a train ticket (where you would either have the ticket in your possession or not be able to collect it at the station) it is possible to board a train believing the reference to be valid for travel even if it is not.

 

[yorkie]

Out of curiosity, what would be the case if you genuinely hadn't?
Quite a few times I have booked train tickets online, and then not had internet access between that time and when I was due to travel, so really would not have seen such an email. While such a situation is less likely here because of the length of time involve, it is still certainly possible.

That issue has been addressed by Ferret.

The Guard on the train will have read this brief, and then will go and check tickets and find our OP. He then has a choice - he can go down the not valid route and try and tell the OP to buy a new full fare ticket. Well, good luck with that! Or he can go down the TIR route and tick the box that states issuing error. Alternatively, he could just think that if they're stupid enough to have sold the ticket in the first place, then it's not his problem, which is where my betting money is going! Put simply, it depends on the attitude of the Guard or RPI as to what happens. I'd like to think most would take the last option.

 

[pemma]

There have been a couple of people talking about pretending as if the OP did not see the email, with others suggesting against it.
Out of curiosity, what would be the case if you genuinely hadn't?
Quite a few times I have booked train tickets online, and then not had internet access between that time and when I was due to travel, so really would not have seen such an email. While such a situation is less likely here because of the length of time involve, it is still certainly possible.

I imagine you've probably seen Ryanair stories when that's happened. They have told passengers of changes to their return flights while they are on holiday and not been near a computer and they then turn up at the airport at the wrong time.

 

[All Line Rover]

I've noticed that no Virgin Megatrain tickets are available after Thursday 19th July. I'm assuming this is because of the Olympics? I hope Virgin haven't stopped the scheme altogether!

 

[34D]

Let me assure you that a court will not see it that way. If I incorporate three companies, Island Limited, Island (No. 1) Limited, and Island (No. 2) Limited, and make Island Limited the holding company of the other two, then have Island (No. 1) Limited borrow £100,000 from a bank, the bank can most certainly not hold Island Limited or Island (No. 2) Limited liable for the debt if Island (No. 1) Limited fails to pay. That is a basic principle of limited liability.

This isn't 100% correct. May I refer to Adam v Cape http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adams_v_Cape_Industries_plc

I found this link by googling Cape veil "company law" which I was quite pleased about - remembering business law lectures from many years ago! I also worked for Cape in a previous life (briefly).

 

[island]

That precedent has been pruned by Chandler v Cape this year.

 

[Goldfish62]

Dare I mention the words 'Trading Standards'?!

I did just google the Megatrain T&Cs, and nowhere does it say as far as I can see that they have the right to unilaterally bail out of a contract!

With my very limited knowledge of contract law it sounds like Stagecoach/Megatrain are operating illegally. By buying the ticket you entered into a legally binding contract which neither side can back out of unilaterally. Even if it said they could in the T&Cs it would illegal and thus not binding on you.

 

[jon0844]

The best way to have handled this would have been to honour any tickets already sold.

Then, if they really wanted to sell the existing seats for much more money, they could have offered people the chance to give up their ticket for a full refund and get a free journey on a future service. Some people might gladly change their travel plans for what would effectively be a free trip (they'd obviously need to do something with any advance ticket booked as a return).

 

[MKB]

Do you happen to have an annual travel insurance policy? Either individually or through a packaged product.

You may well be covered for the full price of the alternative if it was a planned break.

I'd love to have the details of any annual travel policy that covers against planned cancellations of train services by the operator. Where did you find such a thing?

 

[34D]

I'd love to have the details of any annual travel policy that covers against planned cancellations of train services by the operator. Where did you find such a thing?

But the service hasn't been cancelled. It is still running. Just that hoi polloi not welcome.