South Western Railway Season Ticket Refund - Advice Please

[SadQ]

I'm looking for the hive minds' solid advice. I've been trying to search on this but can't find anything.
Currently I have begun a dispute via the Railway Ombudsman with SWR about a refund on my annual season ticket (Woking-London Waterloo, cost £3348). At no point have SWR emailed customers about the refund process from the start of lockdown. Naively, I thought it was to be the same as for the strike compensation and we would be asked to click to apply, especially as the government was advising lockdown 2 weeks at a time. It was only when I became aware that it wasn't to be automatic in July I contacted them for a refund. Initially they said that they couldn't refund my ticket at all as I had travelled two days (again, stupidly not aware of the refund process). I asked if they could refund me minus the two days. They said no. I then took this onto the Railway Ombudsman.

SWR have said to the ombudsman that they will refund May to now minus the two days as follows: "To clarify we can backdate the refund 56 days from when it was requested which takes us to 18/05/20. However, to account for the 2 days, I'm going to take it back to 20/05/20. So the refund would be calculated as follows:
£3348.00 (cost of tickets) - £1510.80 (cost of travel) - £10.00 = refund value of £1827.20.
I'll be happy to waive the admin fee as really this could have been dealt with in-house as a gesture of goodwill. Therefore final figure would be £1837.20".

National Rail's season ticket calculator works it out as follows.
Ticket start: Dec 2019. Return of ticket 17 March: Estimated refund amount: £2501.00
Admin fee: £10.00
Total: £2491.00

I'm a bit mystified as I'm losing money for months I was legally advised not to travel and my card journeys show I didn't travel either so I'm losing a fair chunk of money.
My questions are:
1. Why aren't customers automatically being refunded from March? Why are we having to apply for a refund when we haven't been informed of the process? SWR apparently only updated their website and Twitter... was I supposed to be checking this daily? Is that a reasonable expectation for customers?
2. Under the Consumer Rights Act 2015 and the National Rail Charter don't customers have a right to be informed under exceptional circumstances of what the expected service can be? If so, what can I quote to make SWR move to refund the amount from March onwards?

Thanks in advance if you're able to offer any advice or assistance! It could be that I need to cut my losses and run but I feel that there are many others that will be penalised in a similar way.

 

[matt_world2004]

I'm looking for the hive minds' solid advice. I've been trying to search on this but can't find anything.
Currently I have begun a dispute via the Railway Ombudsman with SWR about a refund on my annual season ticket (Woking-London Waterloo, cost £3348). At no point have SWR emailed customers about the refund process from the start of lockdown. Naively, I thought it was to be the same as for the strike compensation and we would be asked to click to apply, especially as the government was advising lockdown 2 weeks at a time. It was only when I became aware that it wasn't to be automatic in July I contacted them for a refund. Initially they said that they couldn't refund my ticket at all as I had travelled two days (again, stupidly not aware of the refund process). I asked if they could refund me minus the two days. They said no. I then took this onto the Railway Ombudsman.

SWR have said to the ombudsman that they will refund May to now minus the two days as follows: "To clarify we can backdate the refund 56 days from when it was requested which takes us to 18/05/20. However, to account for the 2 days, I'm going to take it back to 20/05/20. So the refund would be calculated as follows:
£3348.00 (cost of tickets) - £1510.80 (cost of travel) - £10.00 = refund value of £1827.20.
I'll be happy to waive the admin fee as really this could have been dealt with in-house as a gesture of goodwill. Therefore final figure would be £1837.20".

National Rail's season ticket calculator works it out as follows.
Ticket start: Dec 2019. Return of ticket 17 March: Estimated refund amount: £2501.00
Admin fee: £10.00
Total: £2491.00

I'm a bit mystified as I'm losing money for months I was legally advised not to travel and my card journeys show I didn't travel either so I'm losing a fair chunk of money.
My questions are:
1. Why aren't customers automatically being refunded from March? Why are we having to apply for a refund when we haven't been informed of the process? SWR apparently only updated their website and Twitter... was I supposed to be checking this daily? Is that a reasonable expectation for customers?
2. Under the Consumer Rights Act 2015 and the National Rail Charter don't customers have a right to be informed under exceptional circumstances of what the expected service can be? If so, what can I quote to make SWR move to refund the amount from March onwards?

Thanks in advance if you're able to offer any advice or assistance! It could be that I need to cut my losses and run but I feel that there are many others that will be penalised in a similar way.

They aren't automatically being refunded from March because people still needed to commute during lockdown

 

[_toommm_]

1. Why aren't customers automatically being refunded from March? Why are we having to apply for a refund when we haven't been informed of the process? SWR apparently only updated their website and Twitter... was I supposed to be checking this daily? Is that a reasonable expectation for customers?

As some people still needed their tickets to travel, an automatic refund process could have proved troublesome as the people who were still using them woke up one morning to find their ticket cancelled and awaiting a refund.

As for the refund process, in short, the last three months of a season ticket are considered 'free' in terms of the calculations, so you can't just calculate the cost of a season ticket for the remaining time and expect that to be refunded unfortunately. As the 56 day backdating has been announced for a while aswell, it may potentially make it difficult for you to argue a case for your refund to be backdated to when lockdown was reinstated.

 

[WesternLancer]

I'm looking for the hive minds' solid advice. I've been trying to search on this but can't find anything.
Currently I have begun a dispute via the Railway Ombudsman with SWR about a refund on my annual season ticket (Woking-London Waterloo, cost £3348). At no point have SWR emailed customers about the refund process from the start of lockdown. Naively, I thought it was to be the same as for the strike compensation and we would be asked to click to apply, especially as the government was advising lockdown 2 weeks at a time. It was only when I became aware that it wasn't to be automatic in July I contacted them for a refund. Initially they said that they couldn't refund my ticket at all as I had travelled two days (again, stupidly not aware of the refund process). I asked if they could refund me minus the two days. They said no. I then took this onto the Railway Ombudsman.

SWR have said to the ombudsman that they will refund May to now minus the two days as follows: "To clarify we can backdate the refund 56 days from when it was requested which takes us to 18/05/20. However, to account for the 2 days, I'm going to take it back to 20/05/20. So the refund would be calculated as follows:
£3348.00 (cost of tickets) - £1510.80 (cost of travel) - £10.00 = refund value of £1827.20.
I'll be happy to waive the admin fee as really this could have been dealt with in-house as a gesture of goodwill. Therefore final figure would be £1837.20".

National Rail's season ticket calculator works it out as follows.
Ticket start: Dec 2019. Return of ticket 17 March: Estimated refund amount: £2501.00
Admin fee: £10.00
Total: £2491.00

I'm a bit mystified as I'm losing money for months I was legally advised not to travel and my card journeys show I didn't travel either so I'm losing a fair chunk of money.
My questions are:
1. Why aren't customers automatically being refunded from March? Why are we having to apply for a refund when we haven't been informed of the process? SWR apparently only updated their website and Twitter... was I supposed to be checking this daily? Is that a reasonable expectation for customers?
2. Under the Consumer Rights Act 2015 and the National Rail Charter don't customers have a right to be informed under exceptional circumstances of what the expected service can be? If so, what can I quote to make SWR move to refund the amount from March onwards?

Thanks in advance if you're able to offer any advice or assistance! It could be that I need to cut my losses and run but I feel that there are many others that will be penalised in a similar way.

I can see why you think this is harsh, my sympathies. I recall a number of consumer media coverage of season ticket refunds for rail on eg BBC back in April by people viewing refund terms as unfair - not that you should have been expect to listen to those reports. I think the rules that ave been applied are the standard season refund process that is pretty much the same as that used for many years, back to British Rail days - although I will stand corrected by others if I have that wrong.

ref this:
"SWR apparently only updated their website and Twitter... was I supposed to be checking this daily? Is that a reasonable expectation for customers?"

No, not daily, but I do think if you have bought an expensive product like a season, it's probably a bit risky to just assume the railways will advise you automatically of your refund rights (I assume you know they have your address or e-mail?). I would have felt it wise to look into it, have gone to your station and asked about it, or checked their website. After all the UK railway system is not exactly known for being at the forefront of great value, simple ticketing and related customer service....(rightly or wrongly).

Apols if this sounds harsh, that is not my intention.

Also - many regular posters on here have a dim view of thew Rail Ombudsman. You may be better off asking Transport Focus to help, and see if it's possible to appeal for a larger refund as a goodwill gesture, so long as there is some element of proof that the ticket has not been used (apart from the days you say you used it of course). But I am not sure how that can be proved unless it is 'smart card' type season of some sort.

Hopefully others will post advice too and you can get a feel for what the best course of action is on this one.

Good luck and best wishes

 

[Haywain]

The problem with your calculation is that you state the ticket was returned on 17th March, when you make it equally clear that you didn’t return the ticket.

 

[SadQ]

They aren't automatically being refunded from March because people still needed to commute during lockdown

I appreciate that people were still commuting, however I was advised to work from home from March by my employer. I have a smart card so that tracks my travel (as SWR have notified me about the strike compensation and about the 2 days I inadvertently travelled).

 

[SadQ]

The problem with your calculation is that you state the ticket was returned on 17th March, when you make it equally clear that you didn’t return the ticket.

The National Rail website asks when you stopped using it. As I've said I stopped travelling into London Waterloo in March. I have accepted that I would be happy for them to deduct the two days I did travel in July and was honest about that with them. I was merely pointing out the date the ticket I stopped travelling overall.

 

[SadQ]

As some people still needed their tickets to travel, an automatic refund process could have proved troublesome as the people who were still using them woke up one morning to find their ticket cancelled and awaiting a refund.

As for the refund process, in short, the last three months of a season ticket are considered 'free' in terms of the calculations, so you can't just calculate the cost of a season ticket for the remaining time and expect that to be refunded unfortunately. As the 56 day backdating has been announced for a while aswell, it may potentially make it difficult for you to argue a case for your refund to be backdated to when lockdown was reinstated.

I wouldn't expect tickets to be cancelled. Maybe something similar to the way the strike payout has been paid. I was emailed about that and asked to apply.

It's interesting as someone on Twitter who literally applied 2 weeks before me (similar circumstances) has received her entire ticket refund of over £3k.

 

[SadQ]

I can see why you think this is harsh, my sympathies. I recall a number of consumer media coverage of season ticket refunds for rail on eg BBC back in April by people viewing refund terms as unfair - not that you should have been expect to listen to those reports. I think the rules that ave been applied are the standard season refund process that is pretty much the same as that used for many years, back to British Rail days - although I will stand corrected by others if I have that wrong.

ref this:
"SWR apparently only updated their website and Twitter... was I supposed to be checking this daily? Is that a reasonable expectation for customers?"

No, not daily, but I do think if you have bought an expensive product like a season, it's probably a bit risky to just assume the railways will advise you automatically of your refund rights (I assume you know they have your address or e-mail?). I would have felt it wise to look into it, have gone to your station and asked about it, or checked their website. After all the UK railway system is not exactly known for being at the forefront of great value, simple ticketing and related customer service....(rightly or wrongly).

Apols if this sounds harsh, that is not my intention.

Also - many regular posters on here have a dim view of thew Rail Ombudsman. You may be better off asking Transport Focus to help, and see if it's possible to appeal for a larger refund as a goodwill gesture, so long as there is some element of proof that the ticket has not been used (apart from the days you say you used it of course). But I am not sure how that can be proved unless it is 'smart card' type season of some sort.

Hopefully others will post advice too and you can get a feel for what the best course of action is on this one.

Good luck and best wishes

Thank you. No, not harsh at all. I probably should've been hyperaware but I think in all honesty I was so news-fatigued that I saw the info about the strike compensation and (wrongly) assumed the same would apply without looking into it further. I should never have assumed for clear and transparent communication with SWR.

Oh, I hadn't realised there was another regulatory group I could approach. I thought the buck stops with the ombudsman. Thanks for the heads up, I'll look into Transport Focus. My ticket is a smart card ticket so SWR can pull up easily when it has been, and as they did do when they initially rejected my refund request as I had travelled twice (even though I'd volunteered that information to them).

Thank you again. Appreciate your advice though.

 

[Hadders]

I think you have to take some responsibility here. If I was seeking a refund on something worth several thousand pounds I would research exactly what was going on and what I had to do. I would certainly not leave it to chance and hope something would happen. The situation with the strikes is not comparable at all. Compensation was paid in respect of the strike period, season tickets weren't cancelled during this period, they were still valid for travel on the reduced services that operated.

As others have said there couldn't be a blanket cancellation of season tickets as many people who were unable to work from home were still travelling and using their season tickets.
You have then further complicated matters by using your season ticket to travel a few weeks later. If you do get a refund you cannot expect an amount for these two days to be deducted at the season ticket pro-rata rate, it should be at the appropriate Anytime/Off Peak fare that you have to pay for these days.

 

[SadQ]

I think you have to take some responsibility here. If I was seeking a refund on something worth several thousand pounds I would research exactly what was going on and what I had to do. I would certainly not leave it to chance and hope something would happen. The situation with the strikes is not comparable at all. Compensation was paid in respect of the strike period, season tickets weren't cancelled during this period, they were still valid for travel on the reduced services that operated.

As others have said there couldn't be a blanket cancellation of season tickets as many people who were unable to work from home were still travelling and using their season tickets.
You have then further complicated matters by using your season ticket to travel a few weeks later. If you do get a refund you cannot expect an amount for these two days to be deducted at the season ticket pro-rata rate, it should be at the appropriate Anytime/Off Peak fare that you have to pay for these days.

I think given we're living in unprecedented and exceptional times I'm allowed a little leeway and compassion over news fatigue. We don't all have the mental capacity and strength to be *on* checking and researching everything. As I've said I've taken responsibility where necessary and where applicable. I don't think it fair that the rail companies think the entire onus is on the customer to find out information only.

 

[Hadders]

I think given we're living in unprecedented and exceptional times I'm allowed a little leeway and compassion over news fatigue. We don't all have the mental capacity and strength to be *on* checking and researching everything. As I've said I've taken responsibility where necessary and where applicable. I don't think it fair that the rail companies think the entire onus is on the customer to find out information only.

We will have to agree to disagree. I do think there was some leeway from the train companies in that season tickets refunds were able to be backdated for a number of weeks. My view is that what you've been offered is reasonable in the circumstances.

 

[CyrusWuff]

We will have to agree to disagree. I do think there was some leeway from the train companies in that season tickets refunds were able to be backdated for a number of weeks. My view is that what you've been offered is reasonable in the circumstances.

Just to expand on this, given the OP has stated that they used the ticket for two days in July, the normal National Rail Conditions of Travel rules for season ticket refunds would apply.

As such SWR would be within their rights to refuse to backdate the refund beyond the date it was actually submitted, unless medical evidence was provided in accordance with Condition 40.4.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you. No, not harsh at all. I probably should've been hyperaware but I think in all honesty I was so news-fatigued that I saw the info about the strike compensation and (wrongly) assumed the same would apply without looking into it further. I should never have assumed for clear and transparent communication with SWR.

Oh, I hadn't realised there was another regulatory group I could approach. I thought the buck stops with the ombudsman. Thanks for the heads up, I'll look into Transport Focus. My ticket is a smart card ticket so SWR can pull up easily when it has been, and as they did do when they initially rejected my refund request as I had travelled twice (even though I'd volunteered that information to them).

Thank you again. Appreciate your advice though.

Thanks- I think given it is a smart card it puts my views in a different light - but for the use you did you should expect to pay full fare (tho if that triggered a discount for more than you have been offered I suspect you would be happy with that). I suspect you are in the realm of generally needing to appeal to their goodwill - I agree with Hadders on the letter of the terms as it were.

Transport Focus may be better at sorting this. I have seen the Ombudsman criticised for widely siding with the rail company - even when it is clearly wrong to have done so - and the implication being that Ombudsman staff are insufficiently trained in the complexity of rail ticketing matters (not that this is a very complex case).

Explore how you can get your case to Tr Focus ASAP I think. Offer to pay anytime rtn fare prices for the days you travelled (which is what you would have done had you applied immediately for a refund, which is what I expect you would have done had u known at the start that you would not be going into work I suspect)

 

[SadQ]

Thanks- I think given it is a smart card it puts my views in a different light - but for the use you did you should expect to pay full fare (tho if that triggered a discount for more than you have been offered I suspect you would be happy with that). I suspect you are in the realm of generally needing to appeal to their goodwill - I agree with Hadders on the letter of the terms as it were.

Transport Focus may be better at sorting this. I have seen the Ombudsman criticised for widely siding with the rail company - even when it is clearly wrong to have done so - and the implication being that Ombudsman staff are insufficiently trained in the complexity of rail ticketing matters (not that this is a very complex case).

Explore how you can get your case to Tr Focus ASAP I think. Offer to pay anytime rtn fare prices for the days you travelled (which is what you would have done had you applied immediately for a refund, which is what I expect you would have done had u known at the start that you would not be going into work I suspect)

Thank you kindly for your kind approach and the information you have provided. You've been most helpful. I shall definitely take up the points you've suggested.

 

[alistairlees]

I think given we're living in unprecedented and exceptional times I'm allowed a little leeway and compassion over news fatigue. We don't all have the mental capacity and strength to be *on* checking and researching everything. As I've said I've taken responsibility where necessary and where applicable. I don't think it fair that the rail companies think the entire onus is on the customer to find out information only.

Normally, season ticket refunds are not backdated at all.

Since 17th March train operators have been backdating season ticket refunds for up to 56 days (in other words, they could be backdated to 17th March until 11th May), providing the season ticket was not used in that time. From 12th May it was a rolling 56 days of backdating, and will continue to be so until 25th August.

This information has been pretty prominent on all train operating company websites. It's at https://www.southwesternrailway.com...ds-and-compensation/coronavirus-refund-update, for example. It was also reported in the news.

During this time, you didn't apply for a refund at all. Then you used your season ticket in July - not once, but twice. This alone is enough to invalidate any refund claim to a date earlier than this.

SWR are offering to back date your refund by 56 days, less two days for the days that you used the ticket, and to not apply the admin fee. This seems very fair - they could easily (and fairly) refuse to refund any further back than the days on which you used it in July. And still charge you the admin fee.

Maybe Transport Focus will get a better deal for you. I understand your frustration, but you do have some responsibility here, to at least ask for a refund. And there has been plenty of information, for many months, on what to do, how, and by when, to obtain one.

 

[kristiang85]

Whilst I agree with those who say one should take responsibility for refunds on such large amounts, I just looked through my emails and there was not one communication from SWR regarding season ticket refund procedures (although I had a paper ticket and not Smartcard, so maybe I didn't get some that did go out). Given that their advice for the strike compensation was to await communications, and indeed there was a lot of social media communication saying their CS lines were very busy, I can understand why the OP thought that they were doing the right thing by waiting.

 

[packermac]

I do not know if the OP is a rail enthusiast or not but when your government is pushing out a severe stay at home, work from home message to protect the NHS it would be unreasonable to assume that a normal member of the public would be expected to be conversant with the rules around season ticket refunds. Or for that matter be expected to go and research them.
I worked in aviation for 41 years and never knew all the ticketing rules there, and there seems to be far more in the rail industry.
What makes this worse of course is that the government effectively nationalised the industry during the crisis anyway.

 

[35B]

I do not know if the OP is a rail enthusiast or not but when your government is pushing out a severe stay at home, work from home message to protect the NHS it would be unreasonable to assume that a normal member of the public would be expected to be conversant with the rules around season ticket refunds. Or for that matter be expected to go and research them.
I worked in aviation for 41 years and never knew all the ticketing rules there, and there seems to be fare more in the rail industry.
What makes this worse of course is that the government effectively nationalised the industry during the crisis anyway.

Personally, I think there's a good case for a generous interpretation of the rules for the OP, but that it's reasonable to expect a measure of customer responsibility to seek advice on what is an expensive piece of plastic if it's not being used.