Southampton Group

[dan_atki]

Was going to reply directly to yorkie's post in the Hereford to Bristol thread about Portsmouth and Eastleigh as it reminded me about the oddities I've encountered with Southampton group - thought in the end it was best to make a new topic to avoid the other being dragged off too much.

So, why is a journey from Portsmouth to Southampton Airport valid at Southampton Central when there is no easement for double backing between St Denys and Central? Phil at Fareham first alerted me to this 'Customers for Brockenhurst, Bournemouth, Poole, Weymouth, and Southampton Airport Parkway should change at Southampton Central' - even though the train is calling at SDN and you would have been on the same service to SOA anyway.

Southampton Group is too odd for my liking because although it has the same rules as all the other groups in writing it doesn't in practice. (SWG-SOU is valid via SOA according to staff - we established why it is according to journey planners too; Double backing is also evidently allowed between SDN and SOU to a destination station part of the group). Romsey is another odd one too - buy a ticket to SOU from there you have almost complete control of Southampton due to the 'any direct service is valid' rule!

Southampton to Portsmouth must also be undertaken on a journey via Bitterne (and not allowed via Eastleigh) - seems rather silly to me at least because ESL to PMH may be taken via Soton. :?

 

[yorkie]

I need to consult a map and timetable to fully understand the scenario, but in general, I find that most rail staff just ignore the RG and allow what seems reasonable to them. Of course, if they think something is unreasonable, then they need to consult the RG, but most don't. I think local guards probably do get told of local easements etc, but I doubt they read any of it directly from the RG.

Equally, I think some TOCs do their own thing without consulting ATOC, and ATOC just go ahead with the RG without fully consulting TOCs.

I bet the number of people in the country who fully understand how to use the RG is only in double figures. And even people who understand it, like us, can make mistakes and miss things, because it's so complicated and illogical.

York-Doncaster is, and always has been (well, for as long as I know of!), valid via Leeds. Yet now ATOC deem it not to be valid via Leeds. So, try putting Donny to York in thetrainline for a Saturday at the moment and it will only let you use the 1154 EMT service or 2146 XC service (both go via Leeds). Of course, the TOCs and guards ignore this and probably aren't aware of it, and I'm not aware of anyone being challenged going via Leeds to Donny. I used to use those tickets all the time (York-Donny used to be cheaper than York-Leeds for about 2 years) and was never questioned. It is a valid route for any other journey such as York-Peterborough/London, etc anyway.

 

[Oracle]

Isn't there still a Portsmouth-Central Southern train via Eastleigh? In the past there were anomalies along the Fareham line, and I think Barry Doe mentioned Porchester as being the 'oddest' old anomaly...to London via Southampton Central, Botley, Guildford and Hove. I used to use Swanwick to get to Waterloo, and the far was the same as from Central, and yet you could go then either via Central (an extra 30 minutes' train) or via Havant and then Guildford. I think the fare was much the same as from Parkway, and that meant driving all the way along the M27 and cutting the corner! I used to like to go both directions on my trips twice a week. The only downside was that via Havant on return (via Cobham or Woking) could be problematic in leaf-fall season. One trip took me from 4.30 at Waterloo to nearly 21.00 at Swanwick because of trains stuck on the section down through Waterlooville. On one occasion the train was diverted via Easteigh at Woking because of this (before the Portsmouth via Eastleighs ran), and the barstewards said that it would stop at Eastleigh only..a fat of use to me! They refused to stop at Fareham so that I could get one stop to Swanwick, and then had to get off, catch the Fareham shuttle and then get a SWT stopper to home.

As regards easements, do I take it that it is an easement to go Totton>Central, then double-back to Redbridge Junction to get to Romsey now that there is no Totton>Romsey?

 

[dan_atki]

I need to consult a map and timetable to fully understand the scenario, but in general, I find that most rail staff just ignore the RG and allow what seems reasonable to them. Of course, if they think something is unreasonable, then they need to consult the RG, but most don't. I think local guards probably do get told of local easements etc, but I doubt they read any of it directly from the RG.

Equally, I think some TOCs do their own thing without consulting ATOC, and ATOC just go ahead with the RG without fully consulting TOCs.

Sounds just about right - I said it in the other thread and I'll say it again: I think there are local easements in Southampton not part of the routeing guide. Guards and retail staff in the area are told but to anyone else it's a mystery.

Isn't there still a Portsmouth-Central Southern train via Eastleigh?

Afraid not, there is one SN a day at ESL in each direction to and from Brighton. Always has baffled me too why this train runs fast SOU-ESL. Am I correct in saying that SWT did not let SN use SOA? I seem to remember something similar being said with the advent of the winter timetable last year.

In fact I don't think there is any SN train between Portsmouth and Southampton any more - that all stations service is provided hourly from SWT via Bitterne.

As regards easements, do I take it that it is an easement to go Totton>Central, then double-back to Redbridge Junction to get to Romsey now that there is no Totton>Romsey?

Ah now that is something I never thought of - although now I have it does not require an easement because Redbridge (which would be the last station of validity northbound without double backing) is part of Southampton Group so travel via SOU (and even SOA) is allowed with double backing.

 

[Matt Taylor]

I think Barry Doe mentioned Porchester as being the 'oddest' old anomaly...to London via Southampton Central, Botley, Guildford and Hove.

I spent a while working in the ticket office at Portchester, I don't recall Waterloo via Southampton C being a valid route, although London Vic is also valid via Horsham.


The Portsmouth area throws up simialr anomolies, particularly given the recent Southern timetable re-cast which provides a beeter service on the Cosham-Havant direct route.



Matt

 

[Oracle]

My son may have to go from Ashurst NF to Romsey for school and now it means either a change at Central or Eastleigh, to go back via Redbridge or to go via Chandlers Ford. If only the blasted ANF and Totton trains stopped at Redbridge! I might just be better off dropping him off in the car at Redbridge.

Is the SN from/to Eastleigh the only non-stopper at Parkway? I can guess that it's not an official route so SWT don't have to split fare revenue?

 

[dan_atki]

Changing at Eastleigh may be a bit dodgy I think because the route is valid via Soton group (which excludes ESL). The ticket on a direct service from a Soton group station (any in between Airport and Redbridge) to Romsey (even via ESL and CFR) is valid though.

Changing at Central offers the additional FGW service to Romsey too (no intermediate stop) on top of the SWT service in either direction. I'd say that's the best place to probably change if you decide to let your son travel by train.

Yes the two SN trains are the only scheduled ones to non stop SOA every day. If however, FGW needs to divert via CFR, ESL, SOA, SWG, SDN, then SOU to reverse to Portsmouth (or vice versa) it too will only call at Chandler's Ford and Eastleigh before fast to Central (yes CFR but not SOA!). I'll never understand their choices of calling pattern...

 

[Oracle]

Ta!