Southampton-Penrith

[Oracle]

Now that XC seem to have had their fun with fares, what is the best option for a return from say Southampton Central-Penrith, now regrettably via Birmingham New Street as against the marvellous direct trains? I have a Disabled RC which helps I know. I have an 'orrible feeling that splitting Birmingham is not an answer! Probably from being charged £68 CDR with DRC from Ashurst - International recently.

 

[yorkie]

Now that XC seem to have had their fun with fares, what is the best option for a return from say Southampton Central-Penrith, now regrettably via Birmingham New Street as against the marvellous direct trains? I have a Disabled RC which helps I know. I have an 'orrible feeling that splitting Birmingham is not an answer! Probably from being charged £68 CDR with DRC from Ashurst - International recently.

When are you going and when are you coming back?

Do the fares need to be walk-on or is AP a possibility?

The SOU-PNR "Not London" Saver is valid on any train after 05:00.

 

[Oracle]

Advance P is a distinct possibility..I seriously doubt in the future if I have to go at the last second (HQ is in Appleby so I will go to Penrith and get a lift for the last 13 miles). When? After 4th August for the next trip. Come back four days later?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

AP fares for the direct ticket start at £14.50 each way (VWC and connections (£15.20 for XC & connections)) dependant on availability.

Direct Walk up fares are:

route London: SVR £65.60 (9A), SOR £196.00
route Not London: SVR £70.55 (8A), SOR £114.20

Including your railcard.

 

[yorkie]

The Not London is valid via London as it costs more than the Not London. But now the big question: Can you use that on any peak train out of Euston? As a railcard is held, yes, without doubt. But if it was not railcard discounted arguably it still should be, as it's code 8A... but is this documented anywhere?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The 'Route Not London' fare itself is not valid via London by definition, therefore you are, in effect, having a £0.00 excess to a 'Route London' ticket, therefore 9A restrictions would apply.

Although I will confess that at the moment I cannot find anything written either way.

 

[Oracle]

Ta!!!

 

[yorkie]

The 'Route Not London' fare itself is not valid via London by definition.

are you sure? I am sure the RG says that more expensive tickets are valid via cheaper routes and I don't think excessing is mentioned. I can't check the wording at the moment.

 

[John @ home]

Advance P is a distinct possibility..I seriously doubt in the future if I have to go at the last second (HQ is in Appleby so I will go to Penrith and get a lift for the last 13 miles). When? After 4th August for the next trip. Come back four days later?

Why not travel via London to Appleby instead of Penrith? For example, the following is currently available with a railcard (enter 'via London' to get these fares):

Monday 4 August - 1000 Southampton Cen - Appleby 1641 £18.50
Friday 8 August - 1540 Appleby - Southampton Cen 2249 £18.50

In each case, change at London and Leeds. You can even travel First Class in both directions between London and Leeds at these prices if you buy lunch on Monday and dinner on Friday in the restaurant car.

Note that you need to book via the NXEC web site to get these prices. On any other site, or at a station, it's £20.80 each way

John

 

[Oracle]

Cheers...the Appleby route is always optional but it's the journey time that puts us off. However, as it's break time we might just try Appleby via Leeds ... I had previously only considered a direct train from Southampton via Brum and not thought about via London.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

are you sure? I am sure the RG says that more expensive tickets are valid via cheaper routes and I don't think excessing is mentioned. I can't check the wording at the moment.

Like I say, I've not seen it written but it must be so. How can a routed ticket not valid via a particular place be valid via that place at a time not allowed by a ticket routed that way just because it costs more?

I will check with the retail trainer and see what he says.

I personally think, if it is written in the RG, it is to avoid issueing free excesses (a free excess ticket costs TOCs money they don't recoup). I have not seen it anywhere else and it does not mention restrictions (because it is a routeing guide!).

 

[yorkie]

Like I say, I've not seen it written but it must be so. How can a routed ticket not valid via a particular place be valid via that place at a time not allowed by a ticket routed that way just because it costs more?

Because ATOC says it can!

I will check with the retail trainer and see what he says.

RG says:

"Where there are other permitted routes, these may also be used for the same journey provided the same or a lower fare applies"

So, for a "Not London" ticket, there are permitted routes via London, which MAY be used PROVIDED the same or a lower fare applies - which, in this case, it does!

I have read that originally "Not London" tickets were cheaper, but XC's disproportionate rises over the past 10 years have resulted in those tickets costing more!

I personally think, if it is written in the RG, it is to avoid issueing free excesses (a free excess ticket costs TOCs money they don't recoup). I have not seen it anywhere else and it does not mention restrictions (because it is a routeing guide!).

So if an excess is not required, the ticket has the 8A validity of the original ticket, surely?

Can of worms opened!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

RG says:

"Where there are other permitted routes, these may also be used for the same journey provided the same or a lower fare applies"

So, for a "Not London" ticket, there are permitted routes via London, which MAY be used PROVIDED the same or a lower fare applies - which, in this case, it does!

I have read that originally "Not London" tickets were cheaper, but XC's disproportionate rises over the past 10 years have resulted in those tickets costing more!

So if an excess is not required, the ticket has the 8A validity of the original ticket, surely?

Can of worms opened

Does the Routeing Guide mention restrictions? it doesn't, I agree that it can be used along that route, my point was that it is in essence a free excess and not a licence to travel whenever you feel like it.

Anyway,

Retail trainer says:

"There is no extra charge via London as long as the saver restrictions via London are applied Ie Travelling after 9.15 -no charge. Travelling before X/S from Not London fare to full SOR via London.
Hope this clears this up."

I think this is another case of the railway opening its mouth before engaging its brain

 

[yorkie]

What do you mean by "retail trainer"? is that a person employed by ATOC?

Did they just make that up on the spot?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

What do you mean by "retail trainer"? is that a person employed by ATOC?

Did they just make that up on the spot?

They are given the job of training people who work on the retail side (I.E. ticket office) of the railway, in this case, employed by Northern (job title may vary by company).

Why does everyone who has a slight disagreement with you, or have a differing point of view, "make it all up"?

 

[yorkie]

I asked a question.

And if they didn't, where is it documented? I thought you said you couldn't find it documented.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I can't, thats why I asked him.

I see where you are coming from.

I think we should put this down as another case of ATOC not making itself clear (as per usual).

 

[yorkie]

I think we should put this down as another case of ATOC not making itself clear (as per usual).

Yep!

(BTW we are agreeing on most things these days )

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I've got it by jove!!!!!!

Where there are other permitted routes, these may also be used for the same journey provided the same or a lower fare applies.

Outside of the 9A restriction (meaning when the 'rte London' SVR isn't valid) the 'rte not London' SVR is not the most expensive ticket and so is not valid via London.

The 'rte London' SOR costs more than the 'rte not London' SVR, so whilst the 'rte not London' SVR ticket has a restriction of 8A it can only be valid via London as if it where a 9A, because that is when it is the more expensive ticket.

D'oh!!

 

[yorkie]

I still think it requires a lot of interpretation to come to that conclusion.

I am not saying it's 'wrong' - I am just saying that it isn't clearly defined.

If the terms of a contract are unclear, the consumer is in the right, according to consumer laws, at least that's what I've read...

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I still think it requires a lot of interpretation to come to that conclusion.

Not really.

I'll use a fictional 0900hrs departure and an equally fictional 0930hrs departure from London as examples, as this is where the restriction applies.

The valid fare for the 0930hrs departure would be the SVR 'rte London' therefore, as the SVR rte 'Not London' is more expensive, it is valid.

The valid fare on the 0900hrs departure would be the SOR 'rte London' therefore, as the SVR rte 'Not London' is cheaper, it is not valid.

If the terms of a contract are unclear, the consumer is in the right, according to consumer laws, at least that's what I've read...

I would say that was fair(or is that fare!?!)