SouthEastern & BTP crackdown on fare evasion.

Discussion in 'UK Railway Discussion' started by Metal_gee_man, 9 Dec 2019.

  1. Greenboy

    Greenboy Member

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    I have seen BTP at Elephant & Castle with a knife arch and sniffer dog but it seems to be a pretty rare occurrence.
     
  2. jon0844

    jon0844 Veteran Member

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    LNER is also leading some all-day blocks in conjunction with local TOCs. Won't mention the station(s) as they're ongoing (not every day though, so random) and from what I've heard, they'll have some interesting stats for a press release too.
     
  3. Horizon22

    Horizon22 Member

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    This was not just a fare evasion operation, but also an anti-social behaviour crackdown on the notorious issues around the Medway Towns. Was generally a very positive operation from all accords, so hopefully replicated somewhere else on the network soon. But problem is some of this evasion has become rife and its an embedded cultural issue at *some* SE lines/stations.
     
  4. ScotGG

    ScotGG Member

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    It became so as staff removed at stations and trains. As soon as possible end problems will return. SE need staffing across network. These figures show scale of evasion. It will fund itself
     
  5. hkstudent

    hkstudent Member

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    Hopefully the next franchise / concession (if devolved to TfL) will have all-day staffing be required.
     
  6. ScotGG

    ScotGG Member

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    TfL wanted to. DfT didnt
     
  7. Mojo

    Mojo Forum Staff Staff Member Administrator

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    I suppose in London it's little different also from someone who just presents an Inspector on rail modes with a Contactless Payment Card when challenged; or if they see Inspectors staffing a gateline just touching out on an Oyster that has enough funds to pay the Maximum fare; in both cases spending less than a Penalty fare but more than the normal fare.
     
  8. HLE

    HLE Established Member

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    Yet again Mr Wilkinson is blocking things. When will this idiot face the public (who he works for!) and account for his departments failings. Forget the politicians, it's people like him that need to move on.
     
  9. Kite159

    Kite159 Veteran Member

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    Wasn't it like that in the early days of contactless payments, when inspectors could only see if a card was not blacklisted, not if it was used to touch in? (unlike with oyster where they could tell if it had been touched in and issue a penalty fare if it hadn't been touched in)?
     
  10. Mojo

    Mojo Forum Staff Staff Member Administrator

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    That is still how it works, the inspection device knows if it was possible to touch in because the card is valid and not blacklisted, not whether the holder did actually touch in. Inspectors on buses can however check, as information is available locally.
     
  11. Kite159

    Kite159 Veteran Member

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    Having seen how busy some of the services can be, it would be impractical for RPIs to board a train to check tickets/cards. Off-peak yes, peak time no-way.

    I would guess at stations where scanners have been installed due to the large number of "till roll" tickets being issued or tickets on phone, the barcode will become live when it gets purchased on the app.
     
  12. Aictos

    Aictos Established Member

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    Thing is and it’s not just the Medway but you have routes which yes sure have 24/7 staffing but it consists of single working of a single person manning a gateline who can’t do anything other then help people buy a ticket from a TVM and man the gateline then is it any wonder that anti social behaviour is on the rise?

    if TOCs believe during daylight hours that gatelines ought to be 2 person manned then surely at night it’s even more of a issue? Especially when you see the fare dodgers wait for the gatelines to be open then it’s a free for all.

    No disrespect to those in power but this shows that staffing is needed and more should be done to tackle anti social behaviour.
     
  13. jon0844

    jon0844 Veteran Member

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    In which case people are simply going to pay when challenged (closed gates) and even if you can argue that at least they will have paid, there's nothing to stop them simply buying a ticket from the station before once on the platform.

    I appreciate onboard checks could sort this, but how easy to do on busy services.

    Ideally a barcode wouldn't work until validated, either by scanning it on the way in to a station or by a member of staff who reads it on a handheld reader.

    The opportunities for fraud seem far greater with some of the new methods of ticketing, as there has to be better ways to monitor things to go with.
     
  14. Metal_gee_man

    Metal_gee_man Member

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    It's funny, you'd think so! But after putting that exact question/remark to a group station manager regarding visibility of staff during the twilight hours 21:00 to 01:30 their staff have been told to protect their safety by staying in an office, but protect the customers safety by watching them on CCTV, actively not getting involved with passengers unless something serious takes place and even then call the BTP as necessary.
     
  15. philthetube

    philthetube Established Member

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    The percentage of prosecutions to penalty fares seems higher than I would have expected.
     
  16. Peter Mugridge

    Peter Mugridge Established Member

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    In conjunction with the SE figures from the start of this thread, this sounds horribly like the already shocking figures quoted for how much fare dodging loses the railway in a year might have been seriously under-estimated?
     
  17. Chrisgr31

    Chrisgr31 Established Member

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    My suggestion has been that a guard, or OBS should go through a train asking if anyone wants a ticket. They can then be followed by Revenue Protection staff who can do a ticket check. Anyone without a ticket can then be prosecuted as its clear they deliberately didnt buy one.
     
  18. 43066

    43066 Member

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    Not necessary on SE metro routes. Tickets are required before boarding, so anyone found on the train without one has committed an offence.

    There are most definitely no guards or OBS on SE metro services!
     
  19. ComUtoR

    ComUtoR Established Member

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    Southeastern is DOO heartland. Revenue staff walk through the train checking tickets. Many will sell you a ticket.
     
  20. 43066

    43066 Member

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    You are required to buy a ticket before boarding.

    If revenue came across someone on board without a valid ticket they’d almost certainly issue a penalty fare or report for prosecution.

    There may be parts of the national network where you can buy tickets from on board staff, SE metro is not one of them.

    That said, SE revenue clearly find it a more effective use of resources to focus on blockading key stations rather than on-train inspections which, as others have noted, are quite rare.
     
  21. Chrisgr31

    Chrisgr31 Established Member

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    That’s easy to say but you have to be consistent. If people regularly travel and buy on board or at their destination and not a word about penalty fares etc is said then you can hardly be surprised if they are stopped and charged a penalty fare or prosecuted they are irritated.

    Tickets are required before boarding on many other services but how many tickets are sold past the barrier no questions asked. Far easier to prove someone’s guilt if you can say you were specifically offered the chance to buy a ticket and ignored it.
     
  22. 43066

    43066 Member

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    I agree it should be consistent.

    I completely get that argument in relation to TOCs like northern, where I gather guards will sell tickets on board, but revenue do occasional sweeps and issue penalty fares to those who have boarded without tickets - that’s totally inconsistent and sends out a confusing message.

    However, there is no opportunity to buy on board on SE metro services so, quite simply, if you’re on the train without a ticket/permit to travel etc. you’ve committed an offence.
     
  23. Stigy

    Stigy Established Member

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    They’d usually have some plain clothed staff loitering too so if anybody appears to see staff and turn around, they’d be nabbed. Also, the rest of the station is usually all but ‘locked down’ therefore there’s plenty of staff at the barriers too which means people can’t simply walk out. The staff at the foot of the stairs are there for people arriving off suburban services, but also for those changing train to go to other stations without barriers (or London Road as that’s the free station for Guildford...). The Plain clothed staff (or uniformed staff to be honest), will usually intercept anybody who tries to slip through the net.
     
  24. Greenboy

    Greenboy Member

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    Not if the ticket office was closed and/or the TVM wasn't working or doesn't take cash.
     
  25. brad465

    brad465 Member

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    Would quite like to see this come to Maidstone and some other stations on the East line - as things stand there are no barriers anywhere between Bromley South and Ashford not inclusive, although the MDE redevelopment might see them installed. RPIs are fairly regular at MDE and do often stop people I've noticed. The Medway Valley line is also bad considering the nature of stations and who uses the line, although unreliable ticket machines are also sometimes to blame; this line would also benefit from police style operations.
     
  26. SECR263

    SECR263 Member

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    I was at West Croydon recently and someone saw I had a card and said "go for the gate" as he obviously wanted to tail gate me. I did not oblige and he just barged his way through the "pram gate".

    What sort of message does this send to honest passengers spending their hard earned cash on a ticket when it is obvious from the comments on this thread that revenue protection is not a priority for many Tocs. (TfL have finally decided to sort out the Boris bus free for all I understand due to loss of revenue as an aside)

    Perhaps the DFT should employ its own revenue staff and (seriously) fine the tocs (£200 + per offence per occurrence of fare evading) for ticketless passengers detected on a particular day. This would then "encourage£ the TOC to realise that ticket less travel is not a victimless crime and to get there act together and put in a realistic bid to run a franchise with correct numbers of staff.

    If the Dft realises that cheap franchises come due to acceptance of fare evading due to lack of staff this is a sad reflection on Dft priorities.

    People moan about the BR sandwich, but I remember at my local SR station there always seemed to be a man on the gate. I am talking 1960'/70s. And the booking office would not sell you a child ticket!!! if an adult. Whereas the machine does.

    I go away into dark room and mutter.

    Cheers
     
  27. Wolfie

    Wolfie Established Member

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    Not being party political but one big advantage of anything other than a Tory win in today's election is that the toxic Mr W would likely be straight out of the door...
     
  28. ComUtoR

    ComUtoR Established Member

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    SE Metro has regular onboard checks. The staff will sell you a ticket.
     
  29. hkstudent

    hkstudent Member

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    Well, not within penalty fare zone, which covers most Greater London area part of SE network

    SE is not implementing a network-wide penalty fare scheme.
     
  30. Aictos

    Aictos Established Member

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    I doubt that very much, he is just a highly paid civil servant who will just stay in his current job role and continue to perform badly unless he either quits or gets fired for being incompetent.
     

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