SouthEastern & BTP crackdown on fare evasion.

[43066]

Well, not within penalty fare zone, which covers most Greater London area part of SE network


SE is not implementing a network-wide penalty fare scheme.

To be clear, this thread is about revenue blockades in the SE metro area.

A ticket is required before boarding to travel in this area. Revenue will not offer to sell tickets, they will issue penalty fares etc.

I have seen them do this many times both at blockades and on the (much rarer) on-train patrols. As posted up thread, several thousand people have recently been prosecuted for ticketless travel within the SE metro area.

Despite what some posters on here seem to be saying, you need to buy a ticket before you board, folks!

 

[Antman]

To be clear, this thread is about revenue blockades in the SE metro area.

A ticket is required before boarding to travel in this area. Revenue will not offer to sell tickets, they will issue penalty fares etc.

I have seen them do this many times both at blockades and on the (much rarer) on-train patrols. As posted up thread, several thousand people have recently been prosecuted for ticketless travel within the SE metro area.

Despite what some posters on here seem to be saying, you need to buy a ticket before you board, folks!

I have seen revenue staff selling tickets on Southeastern trains to people who presumably weren't able to buy a ticket before boarding, ticket office closed etc, or were unlikely to be cooperative about penalty fares so they just settle for getting some payment from them.

 

[43066]

I have seen revenue staff selling tickets on Southeastern trains to people who presumably weren't able to buy a ticket before boarding, ticket office closed etc, or were unlikely to be cooperative about penalty fares so they just settle for getting some payment from them.

I’d be amazed if that was in the metro area. Assuming it wasn’t, are you sure these were revenue staff rather than guards?

The fact remains that you are potentially liable to a penalty fare or prosecution if you board an SE train in the metro area without a ticket.

 

[theageofthetra]

It has reached the stage now with aggressive professional beggars on some SE metro routes that several of my female friends are no longer feel safe travelling alone particularly off peak. The situation has got considerably worse over the last year. The only solution really is full gating up to head height at all stations. You do not need staff for this, they manage perfectly well on some suburban Japanese stations with an intercom (with an English speaking person available if required) with a screen where you can talk to someone if there is an issue with the barriers--in my case my travel pass barcode wasn't being read correctly.

The same old excuses keep getting trotted out for antisocial behaviour and fare evasion on UK trains when there is a solution if the industry could be bothered.

 

[ComUtoR]

On the Southeastern report there is a picture of the staff who were involved in the sting operation. I personally sat with one of them a couple of weeks ago down the North Kent. Their team were issuing tickets as well as MG11s. It was particularly amusing watching the team work together to trap potential fare evaders between coaches.

 

[Antman]

I’d be amazed if that was in the metro area. Assuming it wasn’t, are you sure these were revenue staff rather than guards?

The fact remains that you are potentially liable to a penalty fare or prosecution if you board an SE train in the metro area without a ticket.

Not if there is no opportunity to buy a ticket, Brixton for example. The ticket office is rarely open and the TVM doesn't take cash.

 

[Antman]

It has reached the stage now with aggressive professional beggars on some SE metro routes that several of my female friends are no longer feel safe travelling alone particularly off peak. The situation has got considerably worse over the last year. The only solution really is full gating up to head height at all stations. You do not need staff for this, they manage perfectly well on some suburban Japanese stations with an intercom (with an English speaking person available if required) with a screen where you can talk to someone if there is an issue with the barriers--in my case my travel pass barcode wasn't being read correctly.

The same old excuses keep getting trotted out for antisocial behaviour and fare evasion on UK trains when there is a solution if the industry could be bothered.

The layout of many Southeastern stations means ticket barriers are out of the question so that idea falls at the first hurdle.

 

[43066]

On the Southeastern report there is a picture of the staff who were involved in the sting operation. I personally sat with one of them a couple of weeks ago down the North Kent. Their team were issuing tickets as well as MG11s. It was particularly amusing watching the team work together to trap potential fare evaders between coaches.

Catching fare evaders between carriages in order to merely sell them the tickets they should have bought in the first place? Hmm.

If that’s the case, no wonder the TOC is in such a mess.

Not if there is no opportunity to buy a ticket, Brixton for example. The ticket office is rarely open and the TVM doesn't take cash.

Surely you can tap in with either an oyster or contactless credit/debit card? I wouldn’t fancy your chances using that argument at Victoria gateline, but fill your boots.

 

[43066]

It has reached the stage now with aggressive professional beggars on some SE metro routes that several of my female friends are no longer feel safe travelling alone particularly off peak. The situation has got considerably worse over the last year. The only solution really is full gating up to head height at all stations. You do not need staff for this, they manage perfectly well on some suburban Japanese stations with an intercom (with an English speaking person available if required) with a screen where you can talk to someone if there is an issue with the barriers--in my case my travel pass barcode wasn't being read correctly.

The same old excuses keep getting trotted out for antisocial behaviour and fare evasion on UK trains when there is a solution if the industry could be bothered.

Agreed. Although a lot of it comes down to cost, of course.

 

[Antman]

Catching fare evaders between carriages in order to sell them the tickets they should have bought in the first place?

If that’s the case, no wonder the TOC is in such a mess.



Surely you can tap in with either an oyster or contactless credit/debit card? I wouldn’t fancy your chances using that argument at Victoria gateline, but fill your boots.

It's Southeasterns problem if they haven't provided the opportunity to buy a ticket.

 

[ComUtoR]

Catching fare evaders between carriages in order to merely sell them the tickets they should have bought in the first place? Hmm.

The intent is for people to buy a ticket. If someone boards a service with a Guard and buys on board, there is little difference if Revenue staff also decide to sell a ticket. Same if the Guard decides that the person discovered without a ticket, clearly had an intent to evade the fare and they decide to issue a penalty fare.

Thousands of people every day across Southeastern board trains without a ticket and then buy on board from a Guard or paying at the destination, irrespective of the rules regarding buying before you board.

Don't forget that Revenue and Guards don't just find those without tickets. They also find people who are scamming the system in some way. That is where you have a clear intent not to pay or defraud the railway.

The sting found various forms of travel anomalies. Shortfaring, doughnutting, railcard misuse, etc. still allow someone to buy a ticket.

 

[43066]

It's Southeasterns problem if they haven't provided the opportunity to buy a ticket.

But, as I said, surely you can tap in with either an oyster or a contactless card?

Is Brixton - Victoria via SE a journey you do regularly? Have you tried presenting yourself at the vic gateline and using that as an excuse?

As someone who pays for the privilege of commuting on SE’s services I must admit I’m disappointed with the attitude displayed in some of the comments on this thread.

 

[johnnychips]

Doughnutting?

 

[Antman]

But, as I said, surely you can tap in with either an oyster or a contactless card?

Is Brixton - Victoria via SE a journey you do regularly? Have you tried presenting yourself at the vic gateline and using that as an excuse?

As someone who pays for the privilege of commuting on SE’s services I must admit I’m disappointed with the attitude displayed in some of the comments on this thread.

No I don't do the journey regularly, the point is if a passenger arrives at Brixton wanting to buy a ticket to wherever paying with cash (as they're perfectly entitled to do) what do you suggest happens?

 

[ComUtoR]

Doughnutting?

Imagine you were on a journey between Orpington and Victoria.

Buy a ticket between Orpington and Bromley South and buy a separate ticket between Brixton and Victoria.

The middle bit is missing

 

[matt_world2004]

Doughnutting?

having a ticket for both ends of the journey but nothing for the middle like a hole in a donut.

Easiest example is a zone 3 travel card being used to get from Ealing Broadway to Stratford without having a zone 1-2 validity.

 

[ComUtoR]

What also happens is that many people will get the train and then when they get to Brixton, they dive out and tap in. Then they tap out at Vic.

 

[ComUtoR]

Is Brixton - Victoria via SE a journey you do regularly? Have you tried presenting yourself at the vic gateline and using that as an excuse?

There is a ticket window before the gateline. You are able to purchase a ticket at your destination. As long as you have an intent to pay then your ok.

 

[43066]

The intent is for people to buy a ticket. If someone boards a service with a Guard and buys on board, there is little difference if Revenue staff also decide to sell a ticket. Same if the Guard decides that the person discovered without a ticket, clearly had an intent to evade the fare and they decide to issue a penalty fare.

But we are talking about travel within the penalty fare zone, so presumably no guards involved.

Where’s the incentive for anyone to buy a ticket if, when they’re caught, revenue simply sell them the tickets they should already have bought?

As I said, my experience of SE revenue is that they tend to issue penalty fares or prosecutions.

 

[43066]

No I don't do the journey regularly, the point is if a passenger arrives at Brixton wanting to buy a ticket to wherever paying with cash (as they're perfectly entitled to do) what do you suggest happens?

I’d suggest paying by the other available means (ie touching in), or using an alternative form of travel!

It’s enlightening to see where my fares are going (one poster on this thread is an SE member of staff, unless I’m much mistaken, which makes it all the more shocking!).

 

[Antman]

I’d suggest paying by the other available means (ie touching in), or using an alternative form of travel!

It’s enlightening to see where my fares are going (one poster on this thread in an SE member of staff, unless I’m much mistaken, which makes it all the more shocking!).

I'm sorry your proposals are just completely unworkable.

 

[ComUtoR]

But we are talking about travel within the penalty fare zone, so presumably no guards involved.

Because people need to be given the opportunity to pay. There are many people with various, and valid reasons for not having a ticket. As Greenboy states. IF there is no opportunity to pay then you need to be able to pay at the first opportunity. This may or may not be onboard. You cannot fine/penalty fare someone if they didn't have the chance to pay beforehand.

Hence why Revenue will also sell tickets. It's also less hassle and less confrontational. I know many Revenue staff who would happily go through a unit and sell tickets to anyone without a ticket and still consider that a win. The fare is what is important and having that presence acts as a deterrent to other fare evaders. Many people are just chancing it so will take a risk. If they get caught and have to pay for a ticket, they are less likely to chance it again. Others who witness it will also take less risk to chance a fare.

Penalty fares are issued for people who make errors and prosecution is for those who have an intent to evade the fare. That is often a fine line but it allows Revenue to make that decision and allow them flexibility and discretion.

If an entire train has paid for their ticket, then job done. Some may have paid onboard, some may have paid when challenged, or some paid correctly. Either way, everyone has paid. Isn't that the ultimate goal ?

 

[43066]

I'm sorry your proposals are just completely unworkable.

My proposal is simply that those travelling should pay for their carriage. If they fail to do so, they should be punished accordingly!

 

[Antman]

My proposal is simply that those travelling should pay for their carriage. If they fail to do so, they should be punished accordingly!

And as I've repeatedly pointed out there isn't always an opportunity to pay for their travel, Brixton being just one example.

 

[43066]

Penalty fares are issued for people who make errors and prosecution is for those who have an intent to evade the fare. That is often a fine line but it allows Revenue to make that decision and allow them flexibility and discretion.

If an entire train has paid for their ticket, then job done. Some may have paid onboard, some may have paid when challenged, or some paid correctly. Either way, everyone has paid. Isn't that the ultimate goal ?

So which of the several thousand fare evaders mentioned above were offered the chance to pay for a ticket as opposed to being prosecuted/issued penalty fares?

 

[ComUtoR]

It’s enlightening to see where my fares are going (one poster on this thread is an SE member of staff, unless I’m much mistaken, which makes it all the more shocking!).

Shocking in what way ?

The fares system is flawed and people will ALWAYS try and get away with it. Fares are very expensive and contributes to evasion.

Nobody likes it but taking a stance where people should be hung, drawn, and quartered, isn't the right solution.

 

[ComUtoR]

So which of the several thousand fare evaders mentioned above were offered the chance to pay for a ticket as opposed to being prosecuted/issued penalty fares?

You have to prove intent. If you offer someone the opportunity to pay and they do, then there is little chance of proving intent. If you offer someone the opportunity to pay and they haven't got any form of payment on them you can therefore prove they had an intent to avoid the fare and move to prosecution.

TVM machines break all the time, barriers fail, people forget railcards, cards get refused, people don't carry cash, people don't have cards etc etc. Even though it is strict liability, there are still rules and regulations to follow. The system allows people to board if they are unable to pay beforehand.

 

[ComUtoR]

Warning.. Maths :

640,000 passengers per day
8,619 caught in the sting.

1.35%

As I've said before. It is a drop in the ocean. Yes its shocking and it makes for great headlines but in the greater scheme of things, its quite low. Even if you factor in the entire network you don't really push that figure up that high. We would all love to see the actual figures. Not forgetting that fare evasion isn't going to be as high at stations like Hildenborough or West Dulwich.

Places like Medway are high because of the location. There is also serious crime and BTP will often find people who are wanted for various offenses. There are various hotspots across the network and they do get hit on a regular basis. Metro is undoubtedly the worse because its DOO and open for abuse. Mainline has Guards, who sell tickets onboard but this is because there is a mindset amongst their passengers that they can buy onboard, although they are supposed to buy beforehand. Fare evasion is lower because there is someone checking and selling people tickets.

There is also widespread abuse at places like Brixton because people will tap in/out using the platform readers and chance it. Anywhere there is a boundry, Chelsfield is another place, you will see Oyster card abuse. Open barrier at Sevenoaks, tap in at Chelsfield. Up to Orpington and then fast to London.

 

[43066]

You have to prove intent. If you offer someone the opportunity to pay and they do, then there is little chance of proving intent. If you offer someone the opportunity to pay and they haven't got any form of payment on them you can therefore prove they had an intent to avoid the fare and more to prosecution.

TVM machines break all the time, barriers fail, people forget railcards, cards get refused, people don't carry cash, people don't have cards etc etc. Even though it is strict liability, there are still rules and regulations to follow. The system allows people to board if they are unable to pay beforehand.

If it’s strict liability then, by definition, there’s no need to prove intent.

What on Earth is the point of a mandatory penalty fare zone otherwise?

 

[Meerkat]

If they get caught and have to pay for a ticket, they are less likely to chance it again

That makes no sense at all.
if they get caught and only have to pay the fare, rather than a penalty, then that will encourage them and everyone they tell to only pay when challenged in the future. And even normally law-abiding folk will see there is no penalty and start wondering why they bother.