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SouthEastern & BTP crackdown on fare evasion.

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ComUtoR

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That makes no sense at all.

People take chances based on the perception of risk. If there is a risk of getting caught, you are less likely to take a chance. If people are more aware that checks take place then you are increasing the perception of risk.

Many moons ago I used to occasionally jump the fare to where I worked. My entry station didn't have a barrier (still doesn't) and the destination was randomly checked. The second you heard there was a block on, you would stay on the train to the next station and then walk up the hill. What happens then is you pay for the fare because it becomes a place where you 'might' get caught. Because everyone knows this, you find that people tend to buy a ticket there because the risk is too great.

Not forgetting that those who do get caught will often get their details taken. If you become a serial offender, your pretty screwed and almost guaranteed to get prosecuted if caught again. If you get caught once, how likely are you to risk it again ? It's a bit like giving people speeding courses instead of points on their license. The theory again being that you are less likely to repeat offend.

The theory works. The publicity from this sting will spread and those caught will tell others. That WILL reduce fare evasion. If you look at how forumites have been posting that SE have barriers wide open all the time and no staff onboard checking tickets you can understand why that encourages fare evasion. Showing people that you might get caught, there are regular stings, there may be knife gates with BTP, there are onboard checks, regular blocks.. etc. again, WILL reduce that perception that its a free for all.

And even normally law-abiding folk will see there is no penalty and start wondering why they bother.

Assuming you're law abiding, do you wanna chance it ?
 
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Meerkat

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They aren’t getting ‘caught’ if they just have to buy a ticket, and presumably don’t get their details taken.
There is tipping point at which law biding people think ‘sod this, they don’t care if you haven’t got a ticket, why should I be the mug paying every time?’
 

infobleep

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They’d usually have some plain clothed staff loitering too so if anybody appears to see staff and turn around, they’d be nabbed. Also, the rest of the station is usually all but ‘locked down’ therefore there’s plenty of staff at the barriers too which means people can’t simply walk out. The staff at the foot of the stairs are there for people arriving off suburban services, but also for those changing train to go to other stations without barriers (or London Road as that’s the free station for Guildford...). The Plain clothed staff (or uniformed staff to be honest), will usually intercept anybody who tries to slip through the net.
Interesting. So they would usually catch people arriving on platform 3 and heading to platform 4 catch a train south?
 

Kite159

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Interesting. So they would usually catch people arriving on platform 3 and heading to platform 4 catch a train south?

Or to catch anybody transferring to the "New Line" platforms who have come from other platforms. The sort who will exit at London Road to avoid paying, similar to Reading West is used by a few chancers for Reading (I seem to recall a press release earlier in the year about a Revenue Sting at Reading West catching a few passengers out)
 

infobleep

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Would quite like to see this come to Maidstone and some other stations on the East line - as things stand there are no barriers anywhere between Bromley South and Ashford not inclusive, although the MDE redevelopment might see them installed. RPIs are fairly regular at MDE and do often stop people I've noticed. The Medway Valley line is also bad considering the nature of stations and who uses the line, although unreliable ticket machines are also sometimes to blame; this line would also benefit from police style operations.
I imagine it would also benefit from reliable ticket machines.
 

Stigy

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Interesting. So they would usually catch people arriving on platform 3 and heading to platform 4 catch a train south?
It’s mainly to catch people who change trains from other areas without barriers (on the Gatwick line for example). As Posted above, London Road (where trains from P2 and P1 depart towards) is often used as a free station for Guildford so many people are caught out this way.
 

Horizon22

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What is stopping them now, if they are losing money?

That evidently they are not losing enough money versus the cost of staffing until last train. Plus this about to be the 3rd year of "last year of the franchise".
 

infobleep

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Or to catch anybody transferring to the "New Line" platforms who have come from other platforms. The sort who will exit at London Road to avoid paying, similar to Reading West is used by a few chancers for Reading (I seem to recall a press release earlier in the year about a Revenue Sting at Reading West catching a few passengers out)
Good point. I'd missed the reverse.
 

infobleep

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It’s mainly to catch people who change trains from other areas without barriers (on the Gatwick line for example). As Posted above, London Road (where trains from P2 and P1 depart towards) is often used as a free station for Guildford so many people are caught out this way.
But not all trains to London Road (Guildford) depart from platform 1 and 2. I believe the 7:58 to Waterloo via Epsom doesn't. That uses platform 3. There is a stopping train to Gatwick Airport that arrives at 7:52, 6 minutes prior to the 7:58 departing.
 

Geogregor

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I imagine it would also benefit from reliable ticket machines.

Like everything in SE the problem is with the endless short time extensions of the franchise.

The tickets machines need replacement sooner rather than later. They are old and keep breaking more often than in the past. Part of the problem is that a lot of functionality (oyster cards, key cards, contactless payments, new coins and notes) was added in recent years to machines which are often way older than 10-12 years. They really can't last forever.

Then there is vandalism which doesn't help either...
 

Stigy

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But not all trains to London Road (Guildford) depart from platform 1 and 2. I believe the 7:58 to Waterloo via Epsom doesn't. That uses platform 3. There is a stopping train to Gatwick Airport that arrives at 7:52, 6 minutes prior to the 7:58 departing.
Indeed, there are a fair few that depart from platform 3 throughout the day, but the majority go from 1 and 2 (certainly in the peak times). They (staff) usually move about a bit to factor that in.
 

Merle Haggard

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Warning.. Maths :

640,000 passengers per day
8,619 caught in the sting.

1.35%


Not questioning your arithmetic, but.

In the Medway Towns operation, 8,619 was the number of passengers caught in the 'sting', but where does the figure of 640,000 come from? Statistics provided to indicate station useage are of journeys; for instance a commuter makes 2 passenger journeys (to work and home again) but he's only one passenger, so I wonder if the figure is actually of journeys, not passengers. However, if it is indeed passengers, 640,000 people seems to be a significant proportion of the population of the Medway towns using the railways, much higher than the national average.
In the case of the 8,619 - who are passengers (not journeys) - the basis of prosecution may be travel history and each may have made a number of fraudulent journeys. The number of fraudulent journeys may therefore be a multiple of 8,619.
To accurately assess the percentage of fraudulent travel, obviously either fraudulent passengers should be compared with total passengers, or the same comparison made between journeys, but not a comparison between passengers for one category and journeys for another.
I am sorry if I seem to doubt your figures, but a very large number of 'statistics' based on sophistry or invalid comparisons have been banded about in the last couple of months and I have started to analyse every stat. that I read. Radio 4's More or Less has certainly exposed how often-repeated 'statistics' are completely wrong, but the original source of those is usually politicians!
I have learnt to be cautious about statistics, particularly over the last few months
 

infobleep

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Indeed, there are a fair few that depart from platform 3 throughout the day, but the majority go from 1 and 2 (certainly in the peak times). They (staff) usually move about a bit to factor that in.
Thats fair enough then. It's just that I've never seen them on any other platform at Guilford, other than 1 and 2 and then only at the bottom of the stairs leasing to platform 1.
 

Dougal2345

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They aren’t getting ‘caught’ if they just have to buy a ticket, and presumably don’t get their details taken.
There is tipping point at which law biding people think ‘sod this, they don’t care if you haven’t got a ticket, why should I be the mug paying every time?’
I'm sure this has been thought of already, but why not allow 'buy on board' but with a small surcharge, say £5. It's small enough not to trigger aggression, but large enough to make the fare dodger think it's probably worthwhile to buy a ticket before boarding in future... the current situation of no surcharge (common)/penalty fare (rare) doesn't seem to work...
 
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ComUtoR

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Not questioning your arithmetic, but.

In the Medway Towns operation, 8,619 was the number of passengers caught in the 'sting', but where does the figure of 640,000 come from?

The 640,000 comes from the same report. Stated as passenger per day (on the network)

However, if it is indeed passengers, 640,000 people seems to be a significant proportion of the population of the Medway towns using the railways, much higher than the national average.
it
Medway and that part of the Network is very high density. I believe passenger usage is a published statistic. It could easily be referenced if anyone wanted to.

I have learnt to be cautious about statistics, particularly over the last few months

Always, and the 640k posted was passengers in a day. Scaling that figure up to the 28 day period these people were caught gives 17.9 MILLION passengers. If you look at the simple comparison between the number of passengers caught in the sting and the number of passengers

When they do eventually publish the fare evasion statistics, it will be very interesting.
 

londonbridge

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I'm sure this has been thought of already, but why not allow 'buy on board' but with a small surcharge, say £5. It's small enough not to trigger aggression, but large enough to make the fare dodger think it's probably worthwhile to buy a ticket before boarding in future... the current situation of no surcharge (common)/penalty fare (rare) doesn't seem to work...

Fine, except what do you do about people who genuinely were unable to buy before boarding because the ticket office was closed and the machine was not working? Or the machine was card only and they wanted to pay cash? Why should they pay a surcharge because there were no facilities available? The other alternative would be buy online or through an app, but it's not reasonable to expect or force people to do that.
 

Antman

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I'm sure this has been thought of already, but why not allow 'buy on board' but with a small surcharge, say £5. It's small enough not to trigger aggression, but large enough to make the fare dodger think it's probably worthwhile to buy a ticket before boarding in future... the current situation of no surcharge (common)/penalty fare (rare) doesn't seem to work...

Something similar has been tried with railcard discounts not being allowed for tickets purchased on board but all it does is cause further arguments and as mentioned in the previous post why should people who were unable to buy their ticket at the station have to pay more?
 
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Dougal2345

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Fine, except what do you do about people who genuinely were unable to buy before boarding because the ticket office was closed and the machine was not working? Or the machine was card only and they wanted to pay cash? Why should they pay a surcharge because there were no facilities available? The other alternative would be buy online or through an app, but it's not reasonable to expect or force people to do that.
How about if the surcharge doesn't apply if you go and see the guard to buy your ticket before you sit down? Only if the guard finds you ticketless..? This could be announced frequently. I am sure there still might be problems in certain situations (crush loading etc.), but if the guard can waive the surcharge at their discretion, could that work?
 

daveshah

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How about if the surcharge doesn't apply if you go and see the guard to buy your ticket before you sit down? Only if the guard finds you ticketless..? This could be announced frequently. I am sure there still might be problems in certain situations (crush loading etc.), but if the guard can waive the surcharge at their discretion, could that work?
I have seen guards do this for railcard discounts (I think their own initiative rather than policy) on the train in the past, it does make sense.
 

peterblue

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Fine, except what do you do about people who genuinely were unable to buy before boarding because the ticket office was closed and the machine was not working? Or the machine was card only and they wanted to pay cash? Why should they pay a surcharge because there were no facilities available? The other alternative would be buy online or through an app, but it's not reasonable to expect or force people to do that.

I think the argument is that the surcharge (whether it's a flat £5 charge or the removal of certain discounted fares) should only apply to those who previously had an opportunity to pay.

If someone walks past a ticket office and a bunch of machines and enters a train, why should they be entitled to a cheaper fare?

Obviously it's different for unstaffed stations or out of normal office opening hours.
 

Busaholic

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Warning.. Maths :

640,000 passengers per day
8,619 caught in the sting.

1.35%

As I've said before. It is a drop in the ocean. Yes its shocking and it makes for great headlines but in the greater scheme of things, its quite low. Even if you factor in the entire network you don't really push that figure up that high. We would all love to see the actual figures. Not forgetting that fare evasion isn't going to be as high at stations like Hildenborough or West Dulwich.

Places like Medway are high because of the location. There is also serious crime and BTP will often find people who are wanted for various offenses. There are various hotspots across the network and they do get hit on a regular basis. Metro is undoubtedly the worse because its DOO and open for abuse. Mainline has Guards, who sell tickets onboard but this is because there is a mindset amongst their passengers that they can buy onboard, although they are supposed to buy beforehand. Fare evasion is lower because there is someone checking and selling people tickets.

There is also widespread abuse at places like Brixton because people will tap in/out using the platform readers and chance it. Anywhere there is a boundry, Chelsfield is another place, you will see Oyster card abuse. Open barrier at Sevenoaks, tap in at Chelsfield. Up to Orpington and then fast to London.
Just to say, the last time I used West Dulwich a few times, which admittedly was three or four years ago, mostly around 7 to 8 p.m., quite a few people got on at Brixton and Herne Hill and got off at W.D. As I'm rather slow I let others rush to the only exit, and I was genuinely surprised to see how few people tapped out; no staff around, of course.
 

Joe Paxton

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Just to say, the last time I used West Dulwich a few times, which admittedly was three or four years ago, mostly around 7 to 8 p.m., quite a few people got on at Brixton and Herne Hill and got off at W.D. As I'm rather slow I let others rush to the only exit, and I was genuinely surprised to see how few people tapped out; no staff around, of course.

Of course it doesn't intrinsically follow that people who don't tap in or out are skipping on their fare - they may well have a paper ticket; also in practice tapping in/out with a Travelcard on an Oyster is not needed (if both ends of the journey made were within the zones covered by said Travelcard); likewise some of the non-tappers might be Freedom Pass or 60+ Oyster Photocard holders, who are supposed to tap in & out but face no sanction if they don't (in this case it's the journey data that is of interest to TfL, RDG and London Councils).

But yes, when you see a train arrive at a station and most the disgorged masses who have alighted then walk past the reader without tapping out, especially when it's outside of peak time (when paper season ticket holders are less likely), you do feel a tingle of the spidey senses.
 

ComUtoR

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As I'm rather slow I let others rush to the only exit, and I was genuinely surprised to see how few people tapped out; no staff around, of course.

Of course it doesn't intrinsically follow that people who don't tap in or out are skipping on their fare - they may well have a paper ticket;

There are a few places across the network where I have seen an INCREASE in people tapping out. I get the impression that as people move toward electronic tickets, there is an increase of people tapping out but I agree with Joe that people have season tickets or still use paper tickets. People tapping in or out isn't a good indicator of fare evasion.

West Dulwich is commuter belt so many will have season ticket holders. Potentially a few chancers for Brixton. Off peak it is steady but comparatively quite light. I Don't think fare evasion will be that high.

I don't recall many stings down that end of the Chatham mainline. They tend to be at Bromley South and even though Shortlands is quite notorious for fare evasion, Bromley South is still a target station.
 

bussnapperwm

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I doubt that very much, he is just a highly paid civil servant who will just stay in his current job role and continue to perform badly unless he either quits or gets fired for being incompetent.

If that happened in the Civil Service they would lose hundred, if not thousands of their chaps!

being incompetent usually results in a shunt sideways or a promotion!
 

Meerkat

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If that happened in the Civil Service they would lose hundred, if not thousands of their chaps!

being incompetent usually results in a shunt sideways or a promotion!

how many private companies quickly bin people for incompetence?
In the big companies I have worked for HR makes it very difficult to sack people - big fear of ending up in court (and of course the HR bods have no downside to keeping them on, unlike their colleagues and bosses). If the culprit is happy with their current pay and not ambitious it’s very hard to even manage them out.
 

bussnapperwm

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Plenty of evidence in the civil service and NHS if you look for it. I see it all the time in the NHS

Same with local government. Where I work, we had a assistant manager who couldn't organise a night out in a brewery. He's now team manager of the same department!

Another department had a admin bod who was next to useless and kept going off sick. They got a promotion to another department with a higher salary!
 
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