Southeastern class 376 diagrams.

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Just a few questions about the Southeastern class 376s.

Does anyone know if there are any 376s that are still scheduled to run to Sevenoaks? I remember seeing them on that route a few years ago but have not seen them for a while on Sevenoaks services? Also are any Orpington services operated by 376s?

Have they ever been used on mainline routes? For example has there ever been any times when they have been to Tonbridge or Hastings or Ashford International etc?

Also what are their main routes that they are mostly used on? I presume its mainly the Dartford via Bexley and Dartford via Bexleyheath and Dartford via Woolwich Arsenal routes? Do they still regularly get used on Hayes services as well?

Many thanks.
 
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Bromley boy

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Just a few questions about the Southeastern class 376s.

Does anyone know if there are any 376s that are still scheduled to run to Sevenoaks? I remember seeing them on that route a few years ago but have not seen them for a while on Sevenoaks services? Also are any Orpington services operated by 376s?

Have they ever been used on mainline routes? For example has there ever been any times when they have been to Tonbridge or Hastings or Ashford International etc?

Also what are their main routes that they are mostly used on? I presume its mainly the Dartford via Bexley and Dartford via Bexleyheath and Dartford via Woolwich Arsenal routes? Do they still regularly get used on Hayes services as well?

Many thanks.

They are regularly used on Charing + - Sevenoaks, in fact more frequently than ever following the last timetable change.

Their general stomping ground is the metro routes, Charing + and Cannon St - Dartford (all routes) with some extending to Gravesend, also "rounder" services via Slade Green.
Hayes and Orpington are frequent destinations.

They are not used on mainline routes due to lack of toilets, 75mph top speed and high density seating. Gravesend and Sevenoakes are as far out as they go in passenger service. That said they are maintained at Ramsgate depot so operate ECS down there regularly.

They are also not used in passenger service on Orpington - Victoria services due to short platform lengths on the Chatham Main Line, although can run ECS on the Chathams.

Generally not used on Blackfriars services either, although this has been known during engineering works.
 
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Class377/5

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Atleast one has been to Smithfield Sidings. Saw it appear one evening on the southbound at Blackfriars and was rather surprised.
 

Bromley boy

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Atleast one has been to Smithfield Sidings. Saw it appear one evening on the southbound at Blackfriars and was rather surprised.

That's a very unusual one. Out of interest, was that before or after the rebuild and extension of the overhead wires South of Farringdon?

Networkers are no longer allowed in there due to the lack of clearance from the overhead supply. Perhaps 376s meet clearance requirements due to their Electrostar body-shell...
 
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Class377/5

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That's a very unusual one. Out of interest, was that before or after the rebuild and extension of the overhead wires South of Farringdon?

Networkers are no longer allowed in there due to the lack of clearance from the overhead supply. Perhaps 376s meet clearance requirements due to their Electrostar body-shell...

Pre-rebuild. The wires were going up around the time but not sure if they were live.

As for allowed to City Thameslink, the 375/6 (in DC mode) and 376 are allowed as far as Smithfield with the wires on but all the DC only 375 are not permitted north of Blackfriars.
 
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They are regularly used on Charing + - Sevenoaks, in fact more frequently than ever following the last timetable change.

Their general stomping ground is the metro routes, Charing + and Cannon St - Dartford (all routes) with some extending to Gravesend, also "rounder" services via Slade Green.
Hayes and Orpington are frequent destinations.

They are not used on mainline routes due to lack of toilets, 75mph top speed and high density seating. Gravesend and Sevenoakes are as far out as they go in passenger service. That said they are maintained at Ramsgate depot so operate ECS down there regularly.

They are also not used in passenger service on Orpington - Victoria services due to short platform lengths on the Chatham Main Line, although can run ECS on the Chathams.

Generally not used on Blackfriars services either, although this has been known during engineering works.

Many thanks for the info. Much appreciated. Do you know exactly which services to and from Sevenoaks are operated by 376s (in particular between around 18:00 to 00:00 on Mondays to Fridays)?
 

ComUtoR

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Seen one at Tonbridge too.
 
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westcoaster

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Pre-rebuild. The wires were going up around the time but not sure if they were live.

As for allowed to City Thameslink, the 375/6 (in DC mode) and 376 are allowed as far as Smithfield with the wires on but all the DC only 375 are not permitted north of Blackfriars.

Not anymore they are not, no Networkers boards and no 375/6 boards up now. About two months ago the gravesend services were diverted to blackfriars and lots of 376's were used (first time in about 3-4 years seeing of one blackfriars).

Still no workings in or out of Victoria.
 
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Roast Veg

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There are some 10 car 465/466 workings to Tunbridge Wells, but a 376 is pretty unsuitable given its seating arrangement.
 

FelixtheCat

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Virtually all off-peak Charing X to Sevenoaks services are 376s. Not sure about peak timings though.

Generally, there are more 376s than before from Charing X and fewer from Cannon St since the Dec 16 timetable change (my guess is to improve capacity at London Bridge). They run on any SE Metro services to Dartford or Sevenoaks.
There are a few services around the peak that run beyond Dartford to Gravesend, but none (as far as I know) to Gillingham or Tonbridge/Tunbridge Wells. (There's probably a rule somewhere about the length that a services can be when the train doesn't have a toilet, although I have no idea.)
 

Bromley boy

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Virtually all off-peak Charing X to Sevenoaks services are 376s. Not sure about peak timings though.

Generally, there are more 376s than before from Charing X and fewer from Cannon St since the Dec 16 timetable change (my guess is to improve capacity at London Bridge). They run on any SE Metro services to Dartford or Sevenoaks.
There are a few services around the peak that run beyond Dartford to Gravesend, but none (as far as I know) to Gillingham or Tonbridge/Tunbridge Wells. (There's probably a rule somewhere about the length that a services can be when the train doesn't have a toilet, although I have no idea.)

Wikipedia cites a max journey time of 57 minutes due to the lack of toilets. Not sure where they get that from. That would tie in with Sevenoakes (51 mins from Ch+) but Gravesend is just over an hour.

From memory there was a public consultation at the time the trains were introduced that resulted in an informal pledge to limit their journey lengths and improve station toilet facilities.

The Cannon St rounders are over 1:20 but of course it's not anticipated that any passengers would remain on board for the full journey and indeed the services are advertised as terminating at Slade Green/Barnhurst/Crayford on their outbound leg.

A 376 at Tonbridge in passenger service is unusual... Possibly an emergency stock swap.
 
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NSE

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Genuine question, there may be a limit on length of journey without a toilet. But could a TOC offer one if another service was available? So all the usual services depart Charing Cross to Hastings formed of 375's with toilets and 75mph+ too keep to time etc. But if SE found a path to run all stations to Hastings in between all this, extending a metro service from Orpington for arguments sake, as an all-stations-peak-extra-crowd-buster type run, could this in theory use a 376? On the basis that majority of pax would only be doing 1-4/5 station trips and anyone who took it to Hastings would be on their own so to speak?

Just out of interest
 

Bromley boy

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Genuine question, there may be a limit on length of journey without a toilet. But could a TOC offer one if another service was available? So all the usual services depart Charing Cross to Hastings formed of 375's with toilets and 75mph+ too keep to time etc. But if SE found a path to run all stations to Hastings in between all this, extending a metro service from Orpington for arguments sake, as an all-stations-peak-extra-crowd-buster type run, could this in theory use a 376? On the basis that majority of pax would only be doing 1-4/5 station trips and anyone who took it to Hastings would be on their own so to speak?

Just out of interest

I'd imagine the thing that would prevent it would be lack of stock. In the 4 hours or so round trip to Hastings the same unit could do four or five return trips Orpington - Cannon st. Also what would be the benefit? It's already very straightforward to interchange from metro to mainline services at Orpington and Sevenoakes.

The seating really isn't suitable for long journeys (it arguably isn't suitable for short journeys either!), they're also less well insulated and far noisier inside than 375s.

EDIT: I've just remembered the Hastings line beyond Tunbridge Wells is limited to 8 coach trains due to power supply limitations. A 10 car 376 couldn't run down to Hastings for that reason.
 
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Is this actually an official rule across the National Rail network on how long services can be without toilets? Or just on Southeastern services? I can think of lots of longer services which dont have toilets.

• Brighton to Portsmouth Harbour - Almost all trains (which run once an hour) are allocated 313s without toilets. There are a few evening and peak hour 377s though.
• Brighton to Southampton Central - There are no scheduled 313s but many times in the past 313s have replaced 377s on this route.
• Brighton to Ore - There is one train a day in each direction which is allocated a 313 without toilets.
• London Victoria to Horsham via Dorking - There are a few 455s allocated to these services.
• London Victoria to Dorking - Quite a few trains are allocated as 455s which dont have toilets.
• London Waterloo to Dorking - All trains are 455s and 456s which dont have toilets.
• London Waterloo to Guildford via Epsom - All trains are 455s and 456s which dont have toilets.
• London Waterloo to Guildford via Cobham & Stoke D Abernon - All trains are 455s and 456s which dont have toilets.
• London Bridge to Strood via East Croydon / Redhill / Tonbridge / Maidstone West - These services dont run any more but there used to be a few of these services operated by 508s without toilets.
• Reading to Shenfield - Once Crossrail starts these 345s wont have toilets.

I guess it could also depend on which stations along the routes have toilet facilities.
 

ComUtoR

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Aren't there also sections above 75mph between TON and CHX?

There is a 100mph section between Sevenoaks and Orpington. As well as a 90mph section at Orpington but it doesn't stop Networkers running down there. Networkers run to Tunbridge Wells so I'm not sure what difference a 376 would make other than not having a loo. Platforms are 12 Car.

Best I've got between TWells and Orpington has been 90 and that was with a run up. I'd be interested to know if the Mainline b'hatches can get the speed in a 375
 

Bromley boy

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Aren't there also sections above 75mph between TON and CHX?

Yep. There's a 100mph stretch on the down between Sevenoakes and Tonbridge. On the up there's stretches of 80 and 90, dropping to 70 after Orpington.

75mph max for both networkers and 376s, though.
 

Bromley boy

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Best I've got between TWells and Orpington has been 90 and that was with a run up. I'd be interested to know if the Mainline b'hatches can get the speed in a 375

Good going in a networker! Must have been a decent one :D
 

ComUtoR

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Good going in a networker! Must have been a decent one :D

I was in a 319.

I know a DM who was caught doing 84 in a Networker !

*edit*

The 100mph sections are pretty small. I really do wonder how achievable they are. I know a few 375 Drivers were told off a few years ago for misunderstanding a certain speed restriction.
 
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Bromley boy

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I was in a 319.

I know a DM who was caught doing 84 in a Networker !

*edit*

The 100mph sections are pretty small. I really do wonder how achievable they are. I know a few 375 Drivers were told off a few years ago for misunderstanding a certain speed restriction.

As far as I remember it's 100 on the down only, max 90 on the up.

100mph is definitely achievable in a 375 between Sevenoakes and Tonbridge. The gradient helps.
 

Bromley boy

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Is this actually an official rule across the National Rail network on how long services can be without toilets? Or just on Southeastern services? I can think of lots of longer services which dont have toilets.

• Brighton to Portsmouth Harbour - Almost all trains (which run once an hour) are allocated 313s without toilets. There are a few evening and peak hour 377s though.
• Brighton to Southampton Central - There are no scheduled 313s but many times in the past 313s have replaced 377s on this route.
• Brighton to Ore - There is one train a day in each direction which is allocated a 313 without toilets.
• London Victoria to Horsham via Dorking - There are a few 455s allocated to these services.
• London Victoria to Dorking - Quite a few trains are allocated as 455s which dont have toilets.
• London Waterloo to Dorking - All trains are 455s and 456s which dont have toilets.
• London Waterloo to Guildford via Epsom - All trains are 455s and 456s which dont have toilets.
• London Waterloo to Guildford via Cobham & Stoke D Abernon - All trains are 455s and 456s which dont have toilets.
• London Bridge to Strood via East Croydon / Redhill / Tonbridge / Maidstone West - These services dont run any more but there used to be a few of these services operated by 508s without toilets.
• Reading to Shenfield - Once Crossrail starts these 345s wont have toilets.

I guess it could also depend on which stations along the routes have toilet facilities.

I'm pretty sure it's a statement of practice by the TOC rather than a hard and fast rule. Certainly I'm not aware of any requirement to take a train out of service if it's toilets aren't functioning, for example. That would also seem like a fairly stupid thing to have to do on a rush hour train where most people are on board for 30mins max.

I can imaigne for TOCs serving "proper" mainline intercity routes with journeys of several hours would have a rule in place for obvious reasons.
 
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JamesRowden

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I'd imagine the thing that would prevent it would be lack of stock. In the 4 hours or so round trip to Hastings the same unit could do four or five return trips Orpington - Cannon st. Also what would be the benefit? It's already very straightforward to interchange from metro to mainline services at Orpington and Sevenoakes.

The seating really isn't suitable for long journeys (it arguably isn't suitable for short journeys either!), they're also less well insulated and far noisier inside than 375s.

EDIT: I've just remembered the Hastings line beyond Tunbridge Wells is limited to 8 coach trains due to power supply limitations. A 10 car 376 couldn't run down to Hastings for that reason.

A few 12 car Electrostars run between Tunbridge Wells and Hastings during the peak. I therefore think that the power restriction is that 2 passing trains cannot between them contain 24 Electrostar carriages but a total of 20 Electrostar carriages is OK.
 
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Bromley boy

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A few 12 car Electrostars run between Tunbridge Wells and Hastings during the peak. I therefore think that the power restriction is that 2 passing trains cannot between them contain 24 Electrostar carriages but a total of 20 Electrostar carriages is OK.

You're definitely not thinking of 12 car trains which split into 8 at Tunbridge Wells?

Otherwise, as you say, perhaps they've upgraded the power supply and amended the restriction.
 

ComUtoR

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Could there be a power notch restriction like the one found at Herne Hill <> Sydenham ?
 
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