SouthEastern Franchise Competition

Discussion in 'UK Railway Discussion' started by KashmireHawker, 22 Jun 2017.

  1. Lukespenceruk1

    Lukespenceruk1 Member

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    I have just bad luck of being stuck there in signal failures, or trains developing technical issues and the snow a few years ago. It’s cursed!

    Of course there would be a uproar, I suppose like many station closures or changes/reduction in service. But considering the station usage isn’t high with most people picking lewisham or new cross. In my opinion it doesn’t seem much business sense to keep it open. We have to remember the railways are ran as a business and not just a public service.
     
  2. Barn

    Barn Established Member

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    800,000ish uses per annum is not to be sniffed at, and certainly not a crowd that you would wish to send to already-very-busy Lewisham.
     
  3. Bromley boy

    Bromley boy Established Member

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    I must say that viewpoint seems more than a little irrational!

    According to Wikipedia St Johns serves around 900,000 passengers per year. That's more than Bromley North, Knockholt and Erith. It's a similar number to Chelsfiled, Albany Park, and many other stations on the SE network. Presumably you believe there's no business case for keeping those stations open, either?

    It's not the busiest of stations on the network but hardly "quiet" by most standards, particularly as quite a few services skip it and it only has platforms on two lines of four.

    I'd much rather they closed Lewisham - now that is a truly hateful station <D.
     
    Last edited: 7 Dec 2017
  4. Bromley boy

    Bromley boy Established Member

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    Quite right - apologies - it's going back to Hayes - Ch+/CST after Christmas this year but as you say appears to be going to Hayes - Ch+\Vic from 2022.

    In a way I can see that boosting a currently under-utilised market - more down trains from Victoria via Lewisham and not really any negative impact on "up" trains from Hayes. In fact it will improve matters. New up trains to Vic, which will all serve Lewisham, Ch+ passengers won't be affected and CST passengers will be able to change at London Bridge, so perhaps it presents a more even spread of available destinations from the infrastructure. It's currently pretty difficult to get to Victoria from stations on the mid Kent (i.e. Hayes) line. Even Clock House and New Beckenham, the closest mid Kent line stations to the Chatham mainline, are still quite a long walk from Beckenham Junction or Kent House.

    At the moment the only option to get to Victoria for many mid Kent line passengers is changing at Lewisham for the half hourly Dartford - Vic trains, or possibly walking the short distance from Catford Bridge to Catford, cramming onto GTR services and changing at Denmark Hill.

    The Lewisham - Nunhead link is relatively quiet (albeit with a fair few freight and ECS movements). However it'll be interesting to see how the pathing works on the Catford Loop/Atlantic Lines with all these new Victoria services, particularly as the Atlantics are also served by TFL Rail services.
     
    Last edited: 7 Dec 2017
  5. bicbasher

    bicbasher Established Member

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    Any change which brings 4tph back to Peckham Rye (and Denmark Hill) lost when London Overground replaced the Southern SLL services into Victoria is fine by me. If anything, it may relieve the ELL into Canada Water which is extremely busy during the peaks.
     
  6. otomous

    otomous Member

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    4tph is Lewisham-Vic is great but the way it has been arranged means just 2tph Hayes-London Bridge - it has moved further away from turn up and go, especially on the return trip.

    At Victoria there will be 4tph - fine, change at Lewisham but only 2tph from there to Hayes - timings got to be right
    At Cannon Street - plenty of trains to London Bridge or Lewisham, but again only 2tph to Hayes
    At Charing Cross - only 2tph so miss one and you've got to time it right for the 2tph at Lewisham

    There are currently 4 evenly spaced trains from London Bridge so you can go there to change with confidence that you won't have a long wait for the next Hayes train. And it was always possible to go to Charing Cross or Cannon Street to change for a tube to Victoria. This move has introduced extra changes and less convenience overall.

    I might be reading it wrong but the other branches appear to have 6tph shared between 2 destinations (except the Blackheath-Woolwich link - and all the stations on the connected lines have more choices anyway); if Hayes had 4 to Vic and 2 to Charing Cross or vice versa that would balance things a bit more - everything is turn up and go and one change only for a choice of terminals - which I thought was the whole point of the new timetable.

    Clock House is all of ten minutes at worst from Kent House - it's frequently recommended as an interchange by National Rail Enquiries.
     
  7. Sussex Guy

    Sussex Guy Member

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    I understand what you're saying but there is only ever going to be 2tph to and from Lewisham to Hayes with the other 2tph going via the Ladywell curve. I think the Hayes line could justify 6tph but whether the capacity exists for that without cutting something else is another matter.

    I also think Lewisham to Victoria would also justify 6tph but again capacity is the issue.

    More passengers changing trains at Lewisham would be less than ideal to put it mildly.
     
    Last edited: 7 Dec 2017
  8. Bromley boy

    Bromley boy Established Member

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    It might be more than 4 Lewisham - Vic as I believe I read elsewhere that ex Sidcup line trains will be routing to Vic - not sure without checking if these are in addition to the existing Dartford - Vics via Bexleyheath. This would be beneficial as these trains are max 8 coaches, and are always networkers.

    2tph Hayes - London Bridge, but with more trains going from Lewisham to London the interchange here should be better. It's not brilliant at the moment and hopefully the station will be redeveloped at some point.

    Quite right on the timings needing to be right - I guess more services coming down from London - Lewisham should make it easy for ex CST/Ch+ passengers to pick up the ex Vic Hayes train at Lewisham if they miss the fast.

    That would be ideal but probably wouldn't be possible with the current signalling on the route - there's quite a bit of two aspect signalling between Elmers End and Hayes. There's also the issue of only two platforms at Hayes with opposing movements (trains departing p2 have to wait for arriving trains to cross over into p1 from the down before departing Hayes onto the up), allowing time for drivers to change ends etc. And that's before even considering stock issues.

    I don't think this is a well used interchange.

    From a quick play around on the TfL journey planner passengers from Hayes/West Wickham
    - Vic are better off catching a bus to Bromley South. It might work at a pinch for Eden Park or Elmers End but the tram to East Croydon often works out just as well.

    TFL recommend 15 minutes walk. Agreed it's probably less for a fit person, but hardly an easy interchange and does depend on timings of orpy-vic services at Kent House. 15 mins walk from Clock House to Kent House and 15 mins wait if you've just missed one.

    Overall I see where you're coming from and can understand the criticisms. But given the infrastructure limitations on the mid Kent line, two trains per hour going to Vic may represent a better use of infrastructure when you consider additional trains to and from Lewisham for passengers towards LBG.

    I'd imagine the thinking is that there will be more off peak demand for direct trains to Vic than there is to cannon st.
     
    Last edited: 7 Dec 2017
  9. DynamicSpirit

    DynamicSpirit Established Member

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    My reading of the specs is that it'll be 4 Lewisham-Victoria from 2022. 2tph from Hayes and 2tph from the Sidcup line. Bexleyheath line trains will no longer go to Victoria. So - two half-hourly services Lewisham-Victoria and the requirement is for no more than a 20 minute gap between the two routes.

    I'm not quite sure if there will be more trains from Lewisham. The franchise specs seem to have an awful lot of metro trains skipping Lewisham, although I'm not sure of numbers. Obviously, things are exceptionally bad at the moment for interchange because of CST trains not calling at London Bridge, and that particular problem will go away next year. I agree with you on the need to redevelop the station. It really needs some infrastructure that would allow all metro services to call at Lewisham - especially when the Bakerloo line arrives there. But that would require some very major works, and I'm not sure what you would be able to realistically do to achieve that.
     
    Last edited: 7 Dec 2017
  10. ScotGG

    ScotGG Member

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    Passenger usage at St Johns has increased quite sharply over the past 5-10 years. It went from 500k to near a million. London Bridge work has since held it back with constant weekend (and longer term closure eg from 23 Dec -2 Jan this Xmas again) closures but once that's complete it could well resume its growth as the numbers of people living locally are only increasing.
     
  11. Sussex Guy

    Sussex Guy Member

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    If the boat was really going to be pushed out build a new station on the four track section that currently bypasses Lewisham with the current station being used only for a Victoria to Dartford service via Bexleyheath or Woolwich Arsenal using platforms 3 and 4. The potentially dangerously curved platforms 1 and 2 could be taken out of use with the tracks retained for empty stock and freight train movements. Hayes trains would all go to Charing Cross via the Ladywell curve although in the long term maybe an extended Bakerloo Line should take over the mid Kent line serving both Hayes and Beckenham Junction alternatly. This would also allow some longer distance trains to stop as well with some sort of walkway linking the stations. Obviously this would be a massive undertaking so unlikely to ever happen.
     
  12. ScotGG

    ScotGG Member

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    With the number of new homes something will have to happen. 12 years till the Bakerloo arrives at the earliest
     
  13. cle

    cle Established Member

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    Denmark Hill, Peckham Rye and Nunhead have really benefitted - going from 2tph Victoria (terrible service/timings) to 4tph and same on the Thameslink route - both all week.

    Denmark Hill also has the Dover and other peak calls to augment it further. Peckham needs the Southern services to return properly and increase.

    Such an uplift in service. If the ELL increases frequency to Clapham, as I've read, to 6tph - both DH and PR are going to be very well served little hubs.
     
  14. Sussex Guy

    Sussex Guy Member

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    It's good but I think coastal services going that way are going to be delayed as a result with 8tph plus freight to contend with.
     
  15. Bromley boy

    Bromley boy Established Member

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    In that case it’s still a little improvement on the half hourly dartford - Vic service which does seem very over subscribed. At least most of those have been recently lengthened to 8 cars during the peaks, with the arrival of the 377s and the release of the 465/9s.

    That’s an interesting point. It’s interesting to consider how much of the “improvement” SE passengers see in 2018 will actually just be things reverting back to how they were before the works began. Albeit with a substantially improved London Bridge which has a far higher capacity and better reliability of infrastructure.

    I can understand how SE customers may feel that they’ve born the brunt of the TL disruption and haven’t been the main beneficiaries, although of course they will still see big improvements, particularly as there will be more GTR services running over SE routes.
     
    Last edited: 7 Dec 2017
  16. Bromley boy

    Bromley boy Established Member

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    That’s an interesting idea and there can be little doubt that if Lewisham was being built from scratch today the layout wouldn’t be remotely similar!

    I suspect the problem with this ambitious idea would be the usual one of cost, extreme lack of space and the need to build around an extremely busy operating railway.

    EDIT: and you’d probably still need to keep platforms 1 and 2 as otherwise you’d be squeezing all the mainline ex cannon st and Charing + services onto two down lines,
    in addition to the (4tph) Hayes line services which would stop and then need to depart (slowly via the ladywell loop). There are also the (2tph) CST - orpington and occasional CH+ - Sevenoaks stoppers that serve Lewisham and would also need to be accomodated all on only two down lines.
     
    Last edited: 7 Dec 2017
  17. Bromley boy

    Bromley boy Established Member

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    I guess it may become possible to send more or these down the Chathams how there won’t be so many GTR services crossing the flat junction at Herne Hill.
     
  18. Lukespenceruk1

    Lukespenceruk1 Member

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    Was there not a plan for Hayes line services to end and transfer to Tramlink in the future. or am I imagining it
     
  19. Sussex Guy

    Sussex Guy Member

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    Not Tramlink but possibly an extension of the Bakerloo line, whether it ever happens remains to be seen.
     
  20. BluePenguin

    BluePenguin Member

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    I am pleased to hear that at least there will be some sort of fast service, quite how much time they will save we will have wait and see. Maybe the new bidders will have some more sense on over stopping patterns than Govia have. I am hoping Dover won't be where they start and stop.
     
  21. BluePenguin

    BluePenguin Member

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    How very complicated! I don't know why Paddock Wood is quite so important. Sevenoaks seems to be a stop on very service now. It would be lovely if the bidders didn't opt to keep the current services as they are and bring us back some speed! Your estimation of a 10 minute saving sounds about right.
     
  22. BluePenguin

    BluePenguin Member

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    I think the last time they ever stopped at only Tonbridge at Waterloo East was 2008. After that I remember Sevenoaks and London Bridge being added.
     
  23. BluePenguin

    BluePenguin Member

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    Back then they all started at Ramsgate rather than Dover. You are correct, there was only 2 stops and Ashford to Wateroo East took 55 minutes.

    Later on, Sevenoaks and London Bridge were added which was very annoying and added an extra few minutes making the journy 1 hour 8 minutes. Next thing you know, all of the stops are added slowing down services to 1 hour 20 the services and only run from Dover. Shame on you Southeastern for robbing us of our perfectly speedy mainline. I can't believe they went to this extreme to make HS1 look so much faster and better.
     
  24. BluePenguin

    BluePenguin Member

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    I wonder whether the fares to St Pancras from the stations after Rainham on Thameslink will be much cheaper than HS1
     
  25. frediculous

    frediculous Member

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    I would presume so, and also I expect them to take almost twice the time too!
     
  26. BluePenguin

    BluePenguin Member

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    Of course! No doubt with the cheaper prices there will be awfully slow journeys to match.

    We had better enjoy the last of the current service. I doubt anyone even prefers to go to Blackfriars over Charing Cross anyway.
     
  27. ScotGG

    ScotGG Member

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    And Thameslink via Greenwich will be slower than the current Southeastern semi-fasts and even the Southeastern all-stoppers past Dartford. Loads of timetable padding is included making journeys very slow.
     
  28. BluePenguin

    BluePenguin Member

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    What on earth is the point of all that extra padding when the current services make do without any of it?
     
  29. Bromley boy

    Bromley boy Established Member

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    There have been mutterings about turning the Bromley North branch into a tram - nothing more than mutterings from interested parties, though, as per the below document. Nothing official has ever been suggested as far as I know.

    Could that be what you are thinking of?

    https://www.londonreconnections.com/2013/the-past-and-future-of-the-bromley-north-branch/

     
  30. Southern

    Southern Member

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    December 2009, according to some old timetables I've come across. Typical off-peak pattern was as follows:

    1tph Margate - Charing X calling at Broadstairs, Dumpton Park, Ramsgate, Canterbury West, Ashford*, Tonbridge and Waterloo East.

    1tph Ramsgate - Charing X calling at Minster, Sturry, Canterbury West, Ashford**, Staplehurst, Paddock Wood, Tonbridge and Waterloo East.

    * Ramsgate via Dover portion attached to rear
    **Attached to rear of Dover via Folkestone service

    Those patterns appear to have come into being around 2004 - before that, off-peak services would attach/detach at Tonbridge rather than Ashford and then only 1tph.
     

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