SouthEastern franchise direct award through to 1 April 2020 (& franchise competition terminated)

[ScotGG]

When TfL proposed taking over they wanted to staff all stations and install barriers. It wouldn't eradicate of course but would increase revenue directly, and indirectly by making the railway more attractive to those put off by the behaviour of some freeloaders.

Of course that was blocked and the DfT then said very little about it when tendering, and of course now scrapped.

Abbey Wood saw a huge increase in counted passengers when TfL took over and had staff on barriers all day long.

 

[Horizon22]

When TfL proposed taking over they wanted to staff all stations and install barriers. It wouldn't eradicate of course but would increase revenue directly, and indirectly by making the railway more attractive to those put off by the behaviour of some freeloaders.

Of course that was blocked and the DfT then said very little about it when tendering, and of course now scrapped.

Abbey Wood saw a huge increase in counted passengers when TfL took over and had staff on barriers all day long.

Probably not a huge difference in actual passengers though (although TfL may well claim that) but does show the impact of fully-staffed gateline at all stations which would require additional resource.

 

[ScotGG]

Probably even a reduction in actual passengers despite counted passengers shooting up given Thamesmead is being knocked down but shows what staff and barriers achieve.

I doubt tfl would claim actual passengers have gone up but that their policies work and numbers were massively undercounted before. That was the heart of their devolution argument.

Sadly for TfL they get no benefit as only SE services stopping there!

 

[Horizon22]

Maybe but the cynic it me suggests that they do sometimes and the public can go "wow isn't Overgrounding brilliant" as if its some magical fix to any operational issues.

 

[TrainBoy98]

Who needs to jump barriers when they're just open? Jump on at High Brooms, no barriers, no one checks your ticket on the train, jump off at Bridge and the barriers are open - free transport to your Friday/Saturday night on the town in the big city...

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Sadly for TfL they get no benefit as only SE services stopping there!

I'm not sure precisely how fares are divvied up, but I'd imagine TfL would get at least a small amount of benefit from passengers travelling to DLR stations - many of which are also ungated - although I'll grant that it'll be a tiny fraction of the benefit that SouthEastern must've got from full gating at Abbey Wood.

 

[Geogregor]

Gating at many SE stations would require substantial rebuilding. Take Kent House where underpass is a local right of way. To build gateline there one would need another subway. Ideally with lifts to platforms. The same apply to West Dulwich and Brixton which also need lifts and new modern entrances. In general it is not only gatelines. Most of the station between Victoria and Orpington are virtually falling apart. And very few are accessible. There really isn't solution without spending some serious cash. And here lays the problem as spending on infrastructure is basically a joke in this country. Especially on SE land. Apart from London Bridge rebuild (which was part of Thameslink) very little is invested here.

 

[ScotGG]

Maybe but the cynic it me suggests that they do sometimes and the public can go "wow isn't Overgrounding brilliant" as if its some magical fix to any operational issues.

No commuter I know expects TfL to be some amazing fix - especially operationally and afterall me and many others use train and tube on commutes and know well the problems that exist - but at least TfL appear to try at times which cannot be said for SE and revenue/safety at stations

 

[ScotGG]

Gating at many SE stations would require substantial rebuilding. Take Kent House where underpass is a local right of way. To build gateline there one would need another subway. Ideally with lifts to platforms. The same apply to West Dulwich and Brixton which also need lifts and new modern entrances. In general it is not only gatelines. Most of the station between Victoria and Orpington are virtually falling apart. And very few are accessible. There really isn't solution without spending some serious cash. And here lays the problem as spending on infrastructure is basically a joke in this country. Especially on SE land. Apart from London Bridge rebuild (which was part of Thameslink) very little is invested here.

I genuinely think that because HS1 is under the SE umbrella many in charge think the franchise is ok - regardless of the fact its of no use to many and virtually none to those many, many commuters and passengers within London on metro routes.

It goes back to the old problem. It will cost money but SE never gets it. Other areas do. Always too difficult for Southeastern under the DfT. It's ripe for massive increase in revenue.

 

[ScottGallagher]

I remember the connex days in 1997/8 and it was rotten then (metro and mainline) , so much vandalism unattended to and awash with crime , last travelled on the metro line to Bexleyheath/Crayford a few years ago and it was slightly better not much in the way of Grafitti on stations or trains, wouldn't trust it alone at night after a few beers in a million years.
Not sure what the answer is but it somehow needs reclaiming from the rifraff. Permanent roving on train RPI teams of 4 or 5 might have an impact. Yes it will cost but ought to see a return long term.

 

[Terry Tait]

Overground is probably the best solution to SE Metro, look at what they did for the North London line.

 

[hwl]

Overground is probably the best solution to SE Metro, look at what they did for the North London line.

TfL can't afford to do that to SE now...

 

[Mikey C]

I don't find the inner SE routes especially bad

The Networkers and 376s look rather tired, but I wouldn't say the trains and stations are especially bad for vandalism or graffiti

 

[ComUtoR]

...and 365s look rather tired

376 ? 375 ?

 

[Mikey C]

376 ? 375 ?

Corrected, bad typing

 

[ComUtoR]

I find it odd that people think 376s look 'tired' anything specific ? I find them to be pretty much as they were when they arrived. They are clean and tidy inside and pretty much everything works. Other than the air con running out of breath on the worst days, I still like them.

 

[millemille]

Other than the air con running out of breath on the worst days, I still like them.

Air con?

 

[ComUtoR]

They have a 'blown air' system. They do have a 'HVAC' as its tripped on me and caused a rather unpleasant alarm in the cab. Its good when it works.

 

[Mikey C]

I find it odd that people think 376s look 'tired' anything specific ? I find them to be pretty much as they were when they arrived. They are clean and tidy inside and pretty much everything works. Other than the air con running out of breath on the worst days, I still like them.

The seat moquette is quite worn, and what little cushioning they have is even thinner now!

 

[OxtedSignaller]

London Overground do not have a particuarly large contingent of Inspectors, as far as I know and on the Southern Metro they got rid of all the Inspectors a few years ago now and made them all OBS on Mainline services. So fare evasion is very rife. Most fare evaders know this and will simply buy short tickets, or push through as they are not going to get challenged at the single staffed gateline at the other end for obvious reasons. Metro services seem to just be something operators have to run alongside the more lucrative mainline operation, which most of the resources seem to be focused on. I would like to see Metro operations split off from both Southern and Southeastern even if they are not going to spend big.

 

[Aqua97]

I remember the connex days in 1997/8 and it was rotten then (metro and mainline) , so much vandalism unattended to and awash with crime , last travelled on the metro line to Bexleyheath/Crayford a few years ago and it was slightly better not much in the way of Grafitti on stations or trains, wouldn't trust it alone at night after a few beers in a million years.
Not sure what the answer is but it somehow needs reclaiming from the rifraff. Permanent roving on train RPI teams of 4 or 5 might have an impact. Yes it will cost but ought to see a return long term.

I remember those days, you could walk in off any station which had no staff or barriers at all. Then walk straight out of Charing Cross completely unchecked, same with Victoria. Cannon Street was closed by about 2100.

 

[Bensonby]

London Overground do not have a particuarly large contingent of Inspectors, as far as I know and on the Southern Metro they got rid of all the Inspectors a few years ago now and made them all OBS on Mainline services. So fare evasion is very rife. Most fare evaders know this and will simply buy short tickets, or push through as they are not going to get challenged at the single staffed gateline at the other end for obvious reasons. Metro services seem to just be something operators have to run alongside the more lucrative mainline operation, which most of the resources seem to be focused on. I would like to see Metro operations split off from both Southern and Southeastern even if they are not going to spend big.

I travel on the southeastern Dartford lines more or less every day and I think that Southeastern’s revenue protection is pretty robust. They are pretty visible and I’ve witnessed them go hands on. I don’t think I’ve ever seen any revenue protection on London Overground which tallies with your observation.

 

[matt_world2004]

London Overground do not have a particuarly large contingent of Inspectors, as far as I know and on the Southern Metro they got rid of all the Inspectors a few years ago now and made them all OBS on Mainline services. So fare evasion is very rife. Most fare evaders know this and will simply buy short tickets, or push through as they are not going to get challenged at the single staffed gateline at the other end for obvious reasons. Metro services seem to just be something operators have to run alongside the more lucrative mainline operation, which most of the resources seem to be focused on. I would like to see Metro operations split off from both Southern and Southeastern even if they are not going to spend big.

I dont know why this would be the case. London Overgrounds operator gets a fine from TfL for any ticketless travel encountered by their ticketing surveys. It is still written into TfL bus inspectors contracts that they can do revenue enforcement duties on contracted rail services (DLR,trams Overground and Crossrail) with a fine for the operator and prosecution/fine for the person who doesn't have a correct ticket.This condition has never been enacted. Probably caused by bus inspectors not being trained in the rail ticketing systems

The fines are large enough for TfL rail to be doing near enough constant ticket checks on the west London branch. Which is a reassurance.

IIRC the fine for bus companies to have someone riding unreported ticketless travel is roughly £250 I imagine its hifher on the rail

 

[Horizon22]

I dont know why this would be the case. London Overgrounds operator gets a fine from TfL for any ticketless travel encountered by their ticketing surveys. It is still written into TfL bus inspectors contracts that they can do revenue enforcement duties on contracted rail services (DLR,trams Overground and Crossrail) with a fine for the operator and prosecution/fine for the person who doesn't have a correct ticket.This condition has never been enacted. Probably caused by bus inspectors not being trained in the rail ticketing systems

The fines are large enough for TfL rail to be doing near enough constant ticket checks on the west London branch. Which is a reassurance.

IIRC the fine for bus companies to have someone riding unreported ticketless travel is roughly £250 I imagine its hifher on the rail

Spotting an inspector on the East London Line is practically unheard off...

I don't find the inner SE routes especially bad

The Networkers and 376s look rather tired, but I wouldn't say the trains and stations are especially bad for vandalism or graffiti

Networkers are gathering an increasing number of faults these days, perhaps partly due to maintenance regimes but also they're coming to a natural end. Things like passenger alarm activations locking up the brakes entirely is not uncommon.

 

[jon0844]

Unless the police are in attendance, nobody is going to stop someone who wants to push through a gateline. And I think we can be fairly certain that people know this only too well. I'm sure we've all witnessed people doing it brazenly, either on their own or in a group. The biggest group I saw push through was at Tottenham Hale, and staff stepped away as there's no way they'd take on a large gang that may or may not have been armed for all they knew.

How does anyone deal with this when, while I wouldn't agree for one second that London is anything like what the likes of Donald Trump claims, it is clear that increasingly people are of the opinion that they can do what they want.

Maybe if we actually do get 20,000 more police officers we can tip the balance, but how many BTP officers will that include? If 5 officers can cover three counties at times, will we see that go up by 1 or 2? It's a drop in the ocean.

 

[matt_world2004]

Spotting an inspector on the East London Line is practically unheard off...

Are they gateline watching for concessionary tickets or people pushing through barriers. This is what LO typically do. Same with LU

 

[Horizon22]

Are they gateline watching for concessionary tickets or people pushing through barriers. This is what LO typically do. Same with LU

As in on train checks - I've seen it happen once and once at a station that is ungated in about a year.

 

[Metal_gee_man]

Gating at many SE stations would require substantial rebuilding. Take Kent House where underpass is a local right of way. To build gateline there one would need another subway. Ideally with lifts to platforms. The same apply to West Dulwich and Brixton which also need lifts and new modern entrances. In general it is not only gatelines. Most of the station between Victoria and Orpington are virtually falling apart. And very few are accessible. There really isn't solution without spending some serious cash. And here lays the problem as spending on infrastructure is basically a joke in this country. Especially on SE land. Apart from London Bridge rebuild (which was part of Thameslink) very little is invested here.

Let people up to the platform put a small Gateline on the platform of 3 gates

 

[ScotGG]

I travel on the southeastern Dartford lines more or less every day and I think that Southeastern’s revenue protection is pretty robust. They are pretty visible and I’ve witnessed them go hands on. I don’t think I’ve ever seen any revenue protection on London Overground which tallies with your observation.

Really? I've travelled daily for 20 years on Dartford lines and been checked on board 3 times in the last decade! Pretty much every station has an open entrance too. The only ones that don't aside from central terminals I can think of are Sidcup (though second exit often open), Woolwich Arsenal (likewise with second exit), Lewisham (same at the exit near Sports Direct), Abbey Wood (as TfL now manage) and Welling.

 

[ScotGG]

I remember those days, you could walk in off any station which had no staff or barriers at all. Then walk straight out of Charing Cross completely unchecked, same with Victoria. Cannon Street was closed by about 2100.

It hasn't changed much except central London station are barriered in the day (though not always) but open in the evenings.