SouthEastern franchise direct award through to 1 April 2020 (& franchise competition terminated)

[Chiltern006]

Mistake one was not altering the 376 to 4 and 6 cars (thus allowing for 12 and 8 car operation at stations that need 12 or cant take more than 8), mistake 2 was then not ordering more of them so now we're left with a mini fleet that is right for its purpose but not at this quantity, mistake 3 was consistent dithering around Lewisham and "fixing" the junction in that area. You cant scream "we're untangling the approach to London Bridge!" on all the Thameslink marketing and then add one more track to Lewisham while simultaneously do nothing on the approach to Elephant.

I'm not entirely a fan of the 376 seating (its the precursor to the 700 in almost every way except it went to further extremes; seats that hurt my back, majority standing, no toilets and minimal handrails) but if all the networkers were replaced with 376 we wouldnt really have this issue. That doesnt fix 20 years of almost nothing in the metro area, but then this is what was requested by the omniscient, ever-knowing and always-flexible DFT so here we are.

I doubt the Networkers would be replaced with 376s. Bombardier are mega busy with the Aventras and they also don’t produce Electrostars anymore

 

[fusionblue]

I mean back in 2006 ish when there were options to order more (all of which has since expired).

 

[theageofthetra]

The 707 fleet (30 units) is tiny when compared to the Networkers (147 4cars + 43 2cars), so just adding them to the existing Networkers and 376s will make the SE Metro routes even more messy to operate

And 30 707s hardly makes a sensible replacement for 36 376s.

Plus you've got to train up all the drivers.

 

[HH]

Update.

Rumours suggest that DfT has dusted off the Govia bid and is now re-examining this. Whether Abellio have withdrawn, DfT have decided they've won enough, or some other reason, it appears that the front runner may have changed.

If so, this gives DfT a choice between Govia and Govia. Or more precisely, a new Govia franchise and yet another extension to the existing Govia Franchise (beyond the current third Direct Award). I do hope that the rumours are wrong.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Update.

Rumours suggest that DfT has dusted off the Govia bid and is now re-examining this. Whether Abellio have withdrawn, DfT have decided they've won enough, or some other reason, it appears that the front runner may have changed.

If so, this gives DfT a choice between Govia and Govia. Or more precisely, a new Govia franchise and yet another extension to the existing Govia Franchise (beyond the current third Direct Award). I do hope that the rumours are wrong.

Thanks for the update, hope it is not true but not surprised, from what has been said before it looks like there is serious issues with the franchise process here.

 

[hwl]

Thanks for the update, hope it is not true but not surprised, from what has been said before it looks like there is serious issues with the franchise process here.

THe main issues with the current Govia SE is nearly 5 years of direct awards already.

 

[Roast Veg]

New Govia would be better than old Govia in the medium term.

 

[387star]

I don't mind the networkers

The Interiors have lasted pretty well.guven they have had not been touched for decades

 

[Alteran Ancient]

New Govia would be better than old Govia in the medium term.

Anything new is certainly better than the status quo. Right now, with no agreement, the current system is in a state of purgatory.

With an extension, all we'd likely see is small changes to timetabling and train planning that result in minor improvements in service for people, because it's relatively easy to do and doesn't require a large committal like a new fleet or significant upgrade.

If we're going to see meaningful capacity improvements, we're going to need a fresh franchise, whether that's Govia getting a fresh stack of signed papers, or if it's Abellio. Because those agreements will come with the commitments necessary (new rolling stock and other impactful investments) to improve the service.

I wouldn't be surprised if Govia get the award again. But another part of me is interested to see what Abellio has planned if they were to win.

 

[ScotGG]

I expect very little whoever gets it. The DfT havn't a clue.

 

[yorksrob]

Hopefully we'll still get our Asford - Charing Cross fasts ?

 

[Adsy125]

Hopefully we'll still get our Asford - Charing Cross fasts ?

Why though, it means there’s less capacity on the line for semi fasts and stoppers, and the fast services provided by HS1 do the job perfectly well.

 

[yorksrob]

Why though, it means there’s less capacity on the line for semi fasts and stoppers, and the fast services provided by HS1 do the job perfectly well.

What semi-fasts ? (they're all stoppers).

And HS1 trains are often full and go to the wrong side of London.

 

[Jimstar]

Update.

Rumours suggest that DfT has dusted off the Govia bid and is now re-examining this. Whether Abellio have withdrawn, DfT have decided they've won enough, or some other reason, it appears that the front runner may have changed.

If so, this gives DfT a choice between Govia and Govia. Or more precisely, a new Govia franchise and yet another extension to the existing Govia Franchise (beyond the current third Direct Award). I do hope that the rumours are wrong.

Does this mean awarded before the extension even happens?

 

[Daz28]

Are there any serious proposals on the cards to expand stabling facilities to enable the SE fleet to be increased?

 

[hwl]

Are there any serious proposals on the cards to expand stabling facilities to enable the SE fleet to be increased?

The bidders were told to come up with proposals.

 

[Class 170101]

Update.

Rumours suggest that DfT has dusted off the Govia bid and is now re-examining this. Whether Abellio have withdrawn, DfT have decided they've won enough, or some other reason, it appears that the front runner may have changed.

If so, this gives DfT a choice between Govia and Govia. Or more precisely, a new Govia franchise and yet another extension to the existing Govia Franchise (beyond the current third Direct Award). I do hope that the rumours are wrong.

How can they dust off the Govia or Abellio bids individually? They are not supposed to be identifiable. That would raise the same issue as per the West Coast.

 

[BluePenguin]

Hopefully we'll still get our Asford - Charing Cross fasts ?

I am hoping that we will do as they are long overdue. Every timetable change I have been eagerly waiting for any sign of the return of the fasts to be published and checking

Why though, it means there’s less capacity on the line for semi fasts and stoppers, and the fast services provided by HS1 do the job perfectly well.

This is a massive can of worms you are about to open...

There are no semi fast or fast services at all. For the last (nearly) 10 years all services have stopped at every station between Ashford and Tonbridge. These stations are very sleepy in the off-peak and do not require so many calls. HS1 is brilliant for people who just want to get to central London quickly, those travelling onwards further North and people heading to North London.

However St Pancras is out of the way and a little bit of a pain to get from for people travelling to South London, Surrey, Kent or Hampshire. Those travelling to Gatwick for instance can avoid London althogether by changing at Tonbridge and Redhill. Why should they be punished for the sake of convienience? What used to be a simple change at Waterloo was turned into a 20 - 30 minutes tube/Thameslink journey. For these passengers, HS1 offers little to no time saving whatsoever, which is why there IS a demand for fast services to Charing Cross.

High-speed services are incredibly full at peak time and a lot of the burden can easily be believed by running a few fast mainline services for the benefit of those for whom HS1 offers no time saving. Balancing the load will free up much needed capacity. High-speed services ate great although did not serve all passengers "perfectly well" as you state for these reasons. When/if fast mainline services are re-instated, it will be interesting to see whether many people opt to travel on them instead.

 

[HH]

Does this mean awarded before the extension even happens?

No, I don't think that's possible in the time.

How can they dust off the Govia or Abellio bids individually? They are not supposed to be identifiable. That would raise the same issue as per the West Coast.

You've misunderstood what happens. I can assure you that the bids are heavily branded - you'd have to have the brain of an amoeba not to know whose was whose. But certain people only see the words, certain only see the numbers and certain (high level decision makers) should only see reports that use code names. How effective that is I cannot say.

 

[321over360]

Surely given neither bid has actually been feasible to the DFT standards that isnt it about time that the DFT just took the SE Routes into state control like with the EC Franchise, as lets face it, GOVIA has never ordered any new rolling stock to the SE Franchise, the 395s being ordered by the DFT for the Kent Domestic Services, with the 376 and 375s being Connex and SouthEastern Trains (State run) ordered stock, the networkers are good trains, however they are showing their age more and more, and either a franchisee should be awarded with a requirement to order new trains for the Metro Routes with fixed form 6CAR Trains with walkthrough carriages with SDO installed with the trains doubled up for peak services only as lets face it, if no one gets awarded, no major improvements will ever happen to this bit of the Rail Network.

 

[ComUtoR]

Surely given neither bid has actually been feasible to the DFT standards that isnt it about time that the DFT just took the SE Routes into state control like with the EC Franchise,.

I must admit that if all bids were deemed non compliant then why weren't all bid rejected and just Stagecoach booted out.

If Abellio has pulled out then surely Govia win by default ?

 

[321over360]

I must admit that if all bids were deemed non compliant then why weren't all bid rejected and just Stagecoach booted out.

If Abellio has pulled out then surely Govia win by default ?

But GOVIA Shouldnt win by default if its bid to isnt compliant, then the franchise should go into the states hands again which it has in the past when Connex was stripped of the franchise and it went into SRA Control. If there is no winner to a franchise tender then the franchise shouldnt have any extension and should be taken into state control

 

[bionic]

Yeah but isn't the plan that they are just stringing this out until the Williams Report is published and SE metro gets absorbed into TFL and GTR while the mainline work becomes a separate franchise?

 

[321over360]

Yeah but isn't the plan that they are just stringing this out until the Williams Report is published and SE metro gets absorbed into TFL and GTR while the mainline work becomes a separate franchise?

But TFL shouldnt take on anymore NR Routes as they cant run the rest properly

Also GTR should never have been given any of the SE Routes it now takes as they are one of the worst TOCs going, what with the disastrous introduction of TL Trains to Rainham which saw passengers not having any trains at the start as the TL services had replaced SE Ones but the train didnt run leading to months of suffering to passengers which the dft should never have allowed in the first place, Govia are an incompetent train operator as lets face it, they cant run GTR, and the SE route is run for profit over passengers with trains either cancelled, stopped short or skipping alot of stops including in the rush hour, just so they dont have to pay a penalty for delays

 

[ComUtoR]

Oh, I fully agree. Hence my first point.

I worked for IKF and If I'm honest; it was the best time in the franchise history (that I've worked for). The only problem is that there is no investment and no forward strategy.

I think I mentioned a few pages back that if a non compliant bid wins then Stagecoach have a strong case. Taking what HH has posted, Govia are now the front runner but that implies previously weren't. I would hate to see it as being awarded by default but that sounds like what is about to happen.

 

[HH]

But GOVIA Shouldnt win by default if its bid to isnt compliant, then the franchise should go into the states hands again which it has in the past when Connex was stripped of the franchise and it went into SRA Control. If there is no winner to a franchise tender then the franchise shouldnt have any extension and should be taken into state control

1. Almost all bids these days are non-compliant in some way; DfT has made bidding more complex, made more demands of bidders (but cut down the amount they can write), has made franchises more risky, and actually gives them less time (because it is always late in supplying the info they need).
2. The DfT CAN disbar a bid for non-compliance, but it doesn't have to. It's at their discretion. It has had to take this approach because of 1.

Let's just say that there were two areas of non-compliance. One can be fixed (ish), the other (regarding pensions) cannot. Regardless, Stagecoach would never have won this competition.

State control is an option, but there are political and practical reasons why it's not the preferred one.

 

[Glenn1969]

I don't think we will hear anything about SE until after they have sorted the West Coast Partnership/HS2 Franchise competition which is supposed to be June but knowing DaFT will probably be September lol

 

[ScotGG]

Meanwhile thousands of homes are completing with people moving in across SE London and north west kent (and Stratford for HS1) which are the primary sites for new homes in the UK, let alone the south east

 

[coppercapped]

What semi-fasts ? (they're all stoppers).

And HS1 trains are often full and go to the wrong side of London.

I would suggest that if they are full they are going to the correct side of London!

 

[coppercapped]

1. Almost all bids these days are non-compliant in some way; DfT has made bidding more complex, made more demands of bidders (but cut down the amount they can write), has made franchises more risky, and actually gives them less time (because it is always late in supplying the info they need).
2. The DfT CAN disbar a bid for non-compliance, but it doesn't have to. It's at their discretion. It has had to take this approach because of 1.

Let's just say that there were two areas of non-compliance. One can be fixed (ish), the other (regarding pensions) cannot. Regardless, Stagecoach would never have won this competition.

State control is an option, but there are political and practical reasons why it's not the preferred one.

State control would mean that the Government would have to carry the pensions risks - which is exactly what they are trying to get rid of!