Southeastern knowingly selling invalid tickets

[infobleep]

I'm pleased to say that LNER TVMs handle this correctly.

Did it take a long time to do and get right? Was it expensive to do?

 

[Wallsendmag]

Did it take a long time to do and get right? Was it expensive to do?

Not really, because our machines are based around planning a journey and matching the available tickets to that journey they've done it from day one.

 

[Hadders]

Not really, because our machines are based around planning a journey and matching the available tickets to that journey they've done it from day one.

Problem is that style of TVM is ok for an inter-city type train but it doesn't really work selling tickets for a turn up and go service.

Take Stevenage, going for a day out in London at the weekend. I turn up at the station to buy a ticket from the TVM. I can plan my outward journey as I know I want to travel on the next train but I don't know what time I'll be returning. Two problems then arise:

1. Passengers select a return train and wrongly believe they must travel on that service, when in fact they can take any train
2. Passengers purchase the wrong ticket. There are Any Permitted and LNER only tickets from Stevenage, which many passengers won't understand. They're likely to select the cheaper LNER option but this could lead to trouble if they then travel on a GTR service. To be fair this problem already happens, aided and abetted by the TVMs selling tickets routed '.' and 'LNER only'. How the hell is a passenger supposed to know to select the ticket routed '.'?

 

[Bletchleyite]

1. Passengers select a return train and wrongly believe they must travel on that service, when in fact they can take any train
2. Passengers purchase the wrong ticket. There are Any Permitted and LNER only tickets from Stevenage, which many passengers won't understand. They're likely to select the cheaper LNER option but this could lead to trouble if they then travel on a GTR service. To be fair this problem already happens, aided and abetted by the TVMs selling tickets routed '.' and 'LNER only'. How the hell is a passenger supposed to know to select the ticket routed '.'?

The . thing is indeed ridiculous, it's now being solved by putting in geographical routeings that don't (by and large) affect the actual Permitted Routes, for instance routeing ticket from Bletchley "via Watford" which is the only Permitted Route anyway.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Stevenage has to be a bad example of this it has nearly as many ticket offices as TVMs lol

 

[yorkie]

The . thing is indeed ridiculous, it's now being solved by putting in geographical routeings that don't (by and large) affect the actual Permitted Routes, for instance routeing ticket from Bletchley "via Watford" which is the only Permitted Route anyway.

The dot route was implemented by ATOC because the DfT told them that it was considered "jargon" to say that tickets could be valid by any permitted route and that all routes should therefore either be valid by unspecified routeings (hence the dot) or by a geographical routeing, e.g. Sheffield to Newcastle "via York" (just in case anyone was thinking of going via Carlisle!)

Apparently not many people at DfT actually understand any of the problems they create, and ATOC just have to go along with it, even when they know it causes problems. See also: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...in-lieu-of-any-permitted.151670/#post-3079083 for example.

They're not known as the DafT for nothing.

 

[ThisIsSurbiton]

Problem is that style of TVM is ok for an inter-city type train but it doesn't really work selling tickets for a turn up and go service.

There is data to indicate which London Terminals (and members of other fare groups) are reachable by rail from/to any other station. This data can be used (if complete and correct!) to decide whether a ticket to/from our London station should be for London Terminals or London Underground Zone 1, without the need to plan a journey. The TVM could look up its home location in this data to decide what to issue. LU/NR Inter-availability and walks along the Euston Road or Liverpool Street to Fenchurch Street may affect the result but the data can be fixed.

 

[Gawge]

A minor thing to add, but when I had an annual season ticket from Streatham to London Terminals, my paper ticket would allow me to exit at St Pancras, which I believe it should not technically allow. I did use that frequently. However, I was stopped when I once tried to leave at Farringdon. The ticket never worked on the barriers, and the member of staff on the barriers did let me through due to the complicated nature, but let me know that technically I shouldn't be. So I suspect it would be allowed, but certainly could not be.

I now have a Key Smartcard, is that any more 'smart' than a paper ticket? i.e. for a Streatham to London Terminals travelcard, I imagine it would stop me getting out at Farringdon, but would it still let me off at St Pancras?

Additionally, I have a friend who is planning to get a Greenwich > London Terminals travelcard, as he works at Kings Cross. Would that be valid going on the Thameslink through the St Pancras? If you use the Thameslink online ticket system (Greenwich > St Pancras as your point to point season ticket), it definitely suggests that is valid. I think the validity of heading north of City Thameslink is very confusing.

 

[swt_passenger]

A minor thing to add, but when I had an annual season ticket from Streatham to London Terminals, my paper ticket would allow me to exit at St Pancras, which I believe it should not technically allow.

The limitations of the technology are such that it will be allowed. AIUI from previous discussions all mag stripe coding of "London Terminals" will be identical, wherever its valid to or from...

 

[Haywain]

I have a friend who is planning to get a Greenwich > London Terminals travelcard, as he works at Kings Cross. Would that be valid going on the Thameslink through the St Pancras? If you use the Thameslink online ticket system (Greenwich > St Pancras as your point to point season ticket), it definitely suggests that is valid. I think the validity of heading north of City Thameslink is very confusing.

The ticket your friend will need is from Greenwich to London St Pancras, route Not Underground. This will be valid through the core and at St Pancras without any doubt or potential difficulty, and is priced the same as the London Terminals ticket which is not valid at St Pancras. It is unclear which ticket the Thameslink site will be showing.

 

[PR1Berske]

To further confuse matters, I see that that the Sat/Sun single (CBB), Anytime (SDS) and CDR fares to SAC are actually all the same whether the ticket is issued from LBG, London Terminals or London Thameslink, ie. £9, £12.50 and £13.10 respectively. So any PF would solely be about inappropriate routing, not that the passenger owed any money! It really is time that this sort of nonsense ended, it just gives the railway system in the UK a bad name! Where is Mr Haddock when you need him?!!

This really does look like a prime example for ticketing reform. Untangle the knots of route restrictions and invalid paths and you'd have a more logical, natural railway.

 

[island]

To further confuse matters, I see that that the Sat/Sun single (CBB), Anytime (SDS) and CDR fares to SAC are actually all the same whether the ticket is issued from LBG, London Terminals or London Thameslink, ie. £9, £12.50 and £13.10 respectively. So any PF would solely be about inappropriate routing, not that the passenger owed any money! It really is time that this sort of nonsense ended, it just gives the railway system in the UK a bad name! Where is Mr Haddock when you need him?!!

I’m not sure I agree. London Terminals has validity at Euston, does it not?

 

[Hadders]

I thought tickets from St Albans to/from London should be issued to ‘London Thameslink’.

There shouldn’t be a St Albans to/from London Terminals’ ticket.

Note also that a ticket from, for example Greenwich - St Pancras doesn’t have validity into Cannon Street, Charing Cross, Victoria, Waterloo, Waterloo East or Vauxhall.

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

Well, there is a further tangle here to do with the Abbey branch which indeed I believe is a permitted route for SAC to London Terminals tickets (in addition to the route to STP), but isn't for SAC to London Thameslink. However, my point was really that for a journey from LBG to SAC there appear to be three fare origins, which all have the same fare, but only two are actually valid!
Older readers may remember 'Misleading Cases' with Alastair Sim, featuring a Mr Haddock who revelled in discussing the odder corners of the law (eg. can you write a cheque on a cow?) This seems to be one!

 

[swt_passenger]

Well, there is a further tangle here to do with the Abbey branch which indeed I believe is a permitted route for SAC to London Terminals tickets (in addition to the route to STP), but isn't for SAC to London Thameslink...

My understanding is the opposite. Fares from SAC to London Thameslink ARE valid additionally to Euston. A BR fares query for SAC to EUS reports that fares are issued to London Thameslink.

I believe this has been the longstanding situation.

 

[rdwarr]

Stevenage has to be a bad example of this it has nearly as many ticket offices as TVMs lol

Many passengers will also regard LNER as a route rather than an operator. Occasional travellers often neither know or care who runs the trains and are often penalised as a result.

 

[Hadders]

My understanding is the opposite. Fares from SAC to London Thameslink ARE valid additionally to Euston. A BR fares query for SAC to EUS reports that fares are issued to London Thameslink.

I believe this has been the longstanding situation.

I agree with this. Bedford - London Thameslink tickets are documented as being valid into Euston (as recently as last year when Thameslink ticketing was expenses to incorporate Great Northern destinations). I cannot remember if St Albans was specifically mentioned but it has always been the case that St Albans was valid to Euston as well.

 

[AY1975]

At London Bridge I bought a ticket for St Albans from the machine. It doesn't ask you about route: only for your destination and whether you would like a single or return.

The machine issues a ticket from London Terminals to St Albans. This is not valid through the Thameslink core.

Southeastern have admitted that they know this happens and they can't fix the machines. They have admitted that the ticket would be invalid. And yet there are no notices on the machines to warn people of this and the tickets are still being sold.

Thameslink have confirmed that these tickets would not be valid if used.

Am I alone in thinking this is really not on? To sell tickets knowing that they may cause people to receive penalty fares if used from the station at which they are sold? Southeastern don't seem to appreciate that there is anything wrong with that, and the ticket office actually suggested that I might "just try my chances if I'm not getting off at Farringdon".

Ironically, if you book a London Bridge-St Albans ticket via the thameslinkrailway.com website, it still quotes the same fare as St Pancras-St Albans (£12.50 Anytime Single), but if you click on "more info" it says it is valid to "London Thameslink": St Pancras, Farringdon, City Thameslink, Blackfriars or Elephant & Castle.

It also offers you a (more expensive) Off-Peak Day Single at £14.60, which it says is valid to London Underground and DLR Zones 1-2: St Pancras, King's Cross, Moorgate, Old Street or Liverpool Street, but it doesn't say Farringdon, City Thameslink, Blackfriars or London Bridge even though I asked for London Bridge!