Southeastern Maidstone - Blackfriars 2022.

[Class 466]

Will the alternating calling patterns remain the same (i.e. one service is semi-fast to Maidstone/Bearsted then all stations to Ashford, and vice versa for the other)?

Unfortunately, yes I believe so.

 

[4BEP]

I can definitely confirm I did some of the last ones that were 465/9s and ran between Cannon Street and Ashford. 365s were gone a long time before 2009.

Oops, my error, time goes so quickly, 18 years since the 365s went. I recall reaching LBG one afternoon in 40 mins from MDE on a 365.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Will the alternating calling patterns remain the same (i.e. one service is semi-fast to Maidstone/Bearsted then all stations to Ashford, and vice versa for the other)?

No as there will only be 1tph from Victoria - Ashford International.

 

[73128]

Orpington and Sevenoaks stops are very unpopular with passengers travelling to the Kent coast. Prior to 2009 the fastest semis ran non stop between Waterloo East and Tonbridge, and then Paddock Wood and Staplehurst to Ashford.

and longer ago fast Waterloo East to Ashford!!

 

[Islineclear3_1]

No as there will only be 1tph from Victoria - Ashford International.

What !?? I'm confused now...

So 1tph Vic - Ashford, presumably calling all stations after Swanley

1tph Cannon Street to - Maidstone or Ashford? Where will this stop after coming off the Chistlehurst spur?

 

[Peregrine 4903]

What !?? I'm confused now...

So 1tph Vic - Ashford, presumably calling all stations after Swanley

1tph Cannon Street to - Maidstone or Ashford? Where will this stop after coming off the Chistlehurst spur?

1tph vic - Ashford calling all stations after Otford.

1tph Charing Cross - Maidstone East, calls St Mary Cray, Swanley, Otford, Borough Green and West Malling

 

[Islineclear3_1]

1tph vic - Ashford calling all stations after Otford.

1tph Charing Cross - Maidstone East, calls St Mary Cray, Swanley, Otford, Borough Green and West Malling

Thanks, so only 1tph after Maidstone East then... such a downgrade

 

[cle]

The assumption amongst many was that it made the Hayes line deliberately reduce in passenger numbers and therefore made the Bakerloo line extension the “saviour” to people…

That sounds highly irrational. I don't think we're even two decades from reaching New Cross Gate. The hand-wringers will be long gone by the time the Bakerloo trundles down to Hayes.

 

[N/100]

Orpington and Sevenoaks stops are very unpopular with passengers travelling to the Kent coast. Prior to 2009 the fastest semis ran non stop between Waterloo East and Tonbridge, and then Paddock Wood and Staplehurst to Ashford.

Well, HS1 trains are the obvious answer for such passengers needing a faster service.

 

[BluePenguin]

Well, HS1 trains are the obvious answer for such passengers needing a faster service.

Not this again! It certainly is not the obvious answer for anyone travelling to the West End. Trains on HS1 run to St Pancras which being in Camden, is NOT useful for reaching Charing Cross in Westminster. The time saved is lost taking Thameslink or Underground from St Pancras. Please kindly look at a map and you shall realise this.

We want to reach Charing Cross more quickly, not have a fast service to a completely separate London terminal miles away on the other side of London

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Well, HS1 trains are the obvious answer for such passengers needing a faster service.

Why?

Although slightly inconvenient, passengers from Orpington can change at Sevenoaks for the Kent Coast. Far more convenient than going via Ebbsfleet

Back on topic, will the Cannon Street-Maidstone services start in September or December please?

 

[Class 466]

Why?

Although slightly inconvenient, passengers from Orpington can change at Sevenoaks for the Kent Coast. Far more convenient than going via Ebbsfleet

Back on topic, will the Cannon Street-Maidstone services start in September or December please?

It's from Charing Cross and is December, there's no major changes in September this year

Hopefully The December TT doesn't see the return of HS1 rounder services, they're so terrible for performance.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

It's from Charing Cross and is December, there's no major changes in September this year

Sorry, I meant CHX, thanks

 

[N/100]

Not this again! It certainly is not the obvious answer for anyone travelling to the West End. Trains on HS1 run to St Pancras which being in Camden, is NOT useful for reaching Charing Cross in Westminster. The time saved is lost taking Thameslink or Underground from St Pancras. Please kindly look at a map and you shall realise this.

We want to reach Charing Cross more quickly, not have a fast service to a completely separate London terminal miles away on the other side of London

I’m pretty familiar with the location of the London termini thank you.

In the early 1980s the fast Waterloo E to Ashford stopping pattern trains were timed 61-63 minutes from Charing Cross. Let’s take that as the fastest you can possibly make it (many SE services are slower now) . HS1 is 37-38 minutes from St Pancras. If you are able bodied you can match the journey time to Charing Cross via HS1/underground, and at quiet times beat it. Most people’s journeys don’t end at Charing Cross. For them, HS1 would be quicker against any possible Charing Cross services .

In current circumstances, when travel hasn’t recovered to 2019 levels, it’s unrealistic to deliver the duplicated service you want by way of extra trains so it would only be possible by cutting out stops on current trains and significant inconvenience to others. Your personal preferences don’t amount to a business case for a duplicated service.

I didn’t understand the relevance of Thameslink in the context of getting to Charing Cross/Westminster that you refer to. Would it be mischievous to lend you my map?

Noting the observation from others that the whole sub-thread could be considered off topic to the Maidstone line, my last post on this.

 

[Class 466]

I think this thread could do with renaming to something like “Southeastern December 2022 Timetable Change” to enable us discuss the fairly significant changes being introduced.

 

[JackTheLad]

The timetable is now out, starting on Dec 11th. The new hourly service will depart Charing Cross at 31 minutes past each hour, fast from London Bridge to Swanley (shame it omits St Mary Cray), Otford, Borough Green, and West Malling. Taking 1 hour 3 mins in total to Maidstone East

 

[brad465]

The timetable is now out, starting on Dec 11th. The new hourly service will depart Charing Cross at 31 minutes past each hour, fast from London Bridge to Swanley (shame it omits St Mary Cray), Otford, Borough Green, and West Malling. Taking 1 hour 3 mins in total to Maidstone East

There also won't be any direct services to/from Blackfriars on this line from December, including the peak extras to/from BFR, although for anyone who wants to they can now easily change at London Bridge. Charing X will be much better anyway for this route.

 

[JackTheLad]

There also won't be any direct services to/from Blackfriars on this line from December, including the peak extras to/from BFR, although for anyone who wants to they can now easily change at London Bridge. Charing X will be much better anyway for this route.

The other big winner on this route is passengers at Swanley, who now have a fast service to London Bridge in 18 minutes

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The timetable is now out, starting on Dec 11th. The new hourly service will depart Charing Cross at 31 minutes past each hour, fast from London Bridge to Swanley (shame it omits St Mary Cray), Otford, Borough Green, and West Malling. Taking 1 hour 3 mins in total to Maidstone East

In the 70/80's there was a Victoria, Bromley Sth, Maidstone East all stations to Ashford was scheduled less than an hour and my best run was 52mins to M.east in a 4 CEP probably pushing the speed limit pre OTMDR days. Then there was the era when we had a fast service to Cannon St which was sub 55mins from my recollection but haven't go those timetables anymore.

 

[telstarbox]

Will the SE service come in place of the Thameslink extension to Maidstone East?

 

[Bald Rick]

Will the SE service come in place of the Thameslink extension to Maidstone East?

As there is no TL extension to Maidstone E, you can draw your own conclusion!

 

[Bikeman78]

In the 70/80's there was a Victoria, Bromley Sth, Maidstone East all stations to Ashford was scheduled less than an hour and my best run was 52mins to M.east in a 4 CEP probably pushing the speed limit pre OTMDR days. Then there was the era when we had a fast service to Cannon St which was sub 55mins from my recollection but haven't go those timetables anymore.

In the late 1990s there was an XX:06 Charing Cross to Margate calling at Waterloo East, London Bridge, Maidstone East, Bearsted, Ashford, Canterbury West and all stations. I don't have a timetable for that era to hand so cannot confirm the journey time.

By 2004 it had changed to an XX:14 Cannon Street to Ashford calling at London Bridge, West Malling, Maidstone East, Bearsted and Ashford. The journey time Cannon Street to Maidstone East was 51 minutes.

 

[tbwbear]

The hourly (off peak) SE service on the Maidstone - Swanley - London Bridge - Charing Cross service comes at the expense of one hourly SE Ashford-Maidstone-Swanley-Victoria service.

The original promised frequency (a long time ago) was that, in addtion to the 2 SE trains to Victoria, there would be 2 TL services from Maidstone via London Bridge to the TL Core and on to Cambridge.

So in one sense, yes, the new Charing Cross service is a replacement for the promised TL services.


At least one local Kent commuter association has been told by SE that one reason for the new service is to test the reliability of arrivals (from the Swanley direction) at London Bridge, so that they may one day be extended to the TL core. I don't buy that personally, but it may be being said in good faith.


The best outcome I can see is the new Charing Cross service going half hourly in the off peak and the existing Victoria service being restored to half hourly (this is the case in the morning peak in the new Dec 22 timetable) but I don't see either of those happening soon...

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The hourly (off peak) SE service on the Maidstone - Swanley - London Bridge - Charing Cross service comes at the expense of one hourly SE Ashford-Maidstone-Swanley-Victoria service.

The original promised frequency (a long time ago) was that, in addtion to the 2 SE trains to Victoria, there would be 2 TL services from Maidstone via London Bridge to the TL Core and on to Cambridge.

So in one sense, yes, the new Charing Cross service is a replacement for the promised TL services.


At least one local Kent commuter association has been told by SE that one reason for the new service is to test the reliability of arrivals (from the Swanley direction) at London Bridge, so that they may one day be extended to the TL core. I don't buy that personally, but it may be being said in good faith.


The best outcome I can see is the new Charing Cross service going half hourly in the off peak and the existing Victoria service being restored to half hourly (this is the case in the morning peak in the new Dec 22 timetable) but I don't see either of those happening soon...

The best that could happen for Maidstone is an hourly HS1 service anything else is just a half baked attempt to appease stakeholders. The simple fact is M.East to London isn't a fast route currently as there isn't anything that could be done to improve speed profile.

 

[4BEP]

Will the SE service come in place of the Thameslink extension to Maidstone East

Will the SE service come in place of the Thameslink extension to Maidstone East?

No, the initial service sees 3 up 3 down services per day. After the December 22 tometanle change the Blackfriars service goes and the Ramsgate/Ashford - Victoria semis are replace by hourly Maidstone East- Charing X semis.

Thanks, so only 1tph after Maidstone East then... such a downgrade

SE says passenger numbers on the Mid Kent are sti only 60% of pre Covid. The new Charing X service does not call at St Mary Cray but most Ashford - Victorias do. So Maidstone East rebuilt with a great fanfare and talk of a new era for travellers wnich has turned out to be worse than the original 1939 electric service.

 

[Edsmith]

SE says passenger numbers on the Mid Kent are sti only 60% of pre Covid. The new Charing X service does not call at St Mary Cray but most Ashford - Victorias do. So Maidstone East rebuilt with a great fanfare and talk of a new era for travellers wnich has turned out to be worse than the original 1939 electric service.

It wasn't exactly rebuilt, just a new ticket office.

The best that could happen for Maidstone is an hourly HS1 service anything else is just a half baked attempt to appease stakeholders. The simple fact is M.East to London isn't a fast route currently as there isn't anything that could be done to improve speed profile.

The Maidstone West to St Pancras service isn't much faster, I can't imagine many people being willing to pay a premium fare for it.

 

[brad465]

It wasn't exactly rebuilt, just a new ticket office.


The Maidstone West to St Pancras service isn't much faster, I can't imagine many people being willing to pay a premium fare for it.

I typically have if I've made onward travel from one of Kings Cross/St Pancras/Euston, given it saves a Tube fare and travel time in that respect, but yes I suspect that isn't a common occurrence, especially for the morning peak services (although the evening peak ones maybe more so). I have also used one of the evening contraflow ones to get to Gravesend when heading onto Crayford.

 

[4BEP]

In the late 1990s there was an XX:06 Charing Cross to Margate calling at Waterloo East, London Bridge, Maidstone East, Bearsted, Ashford, Canterbury West and all stations. I don't have a timetable for that era to hand so cannot confirm the journey time.

By 2004 it had changed to an XX:14 Cannon Street to Ashford calling at London Bridge, West Malling, Maidstone East, Bearsted and Ashford. The journey time Cannon Street to Maidstone East was 51 minutes.

The Charing X dervice introduced in the early 90s was the diversion of a service from the SEML and ran to/from Folkrstone Central. The stopping pattern was Waterloo East, Maidstone East, Ashford, Folkestone Central. Borough Green was soon added and by the time the service was moved to Cannon Street West Malling and Bearsted had been added and the service terminated at what was by then Ashford International. Both the the Charing X and Cannon Street services saw 365s and it was quite common up services arriving 2 or 3 minutes early at Otford Junction with a resultsnt wait for a stopper from Sevenoaks in grony.