Southeastern Maidstone - Blackfriars 2022.

[mister-sparky]

I’ve also read the Rainham Thameslink is to transfer to Reigate after Windmill Bridge is done, can’t remember where tho, it wasn’t a forum or wiki

 

[Class 466]

I’ve also read the Rainham Thameslink is to transfer to Reigate after Windmill Bridge is done, can’t remember where tho, it wasn’t a forum or wiki

Seems odd given there will then be a second depot load of drivers in Kent with no work. My understanding was that the Victoria - Reigate’s would go to Gatwick and the Bedford - Gatwick’s would go to Reigate instead.

 

[JammyJames08]

I've just been looking at this document https://assets.publishing.service.g...-attachment-a-train-service-specification.pdf

if this is the same one, it now says from December 2022, not May, but can these changes be brought in earlier anyway?

 

[NorthKent1989]

I've just been looking at this document https://assets.publishing.service.g...-attachment-a-train-service-specification.pdf

if this is the same one, it now says from December 2022, not May, but can these changes be brought in earlier anyway?

I think the whole ITT has been binned altogether, if you look on changes in the National Rail network it says South Eastern changes but it’s scratched out in red, it was initially postponed to Dec 2022, but I think it’s been scrapped indefinitely

 

[JammyJames08]

ok thanks, so only the new Blackfriars to Maidstone service starts next year?

 

[NorthKent1989]

ok thanks, so only the new Blackfriars to Maidstone service starts next year?

Yes this will start next year, but it will run via Bromley & E&C and not via London Bridge.

 

[JammyJames08]

ok thanks.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Seems odd given there will then be a second depot load of drivers in Kent with no work. My understanding was that the Victoria - Reigate’s would go to Gatwick and the Bedford - Gatwick’s would go to Reigate instead.

As a user of the Gatwick-Bedford service South of Redhill this is what we've been briefed that the TLK service will be diverted to Reigate most of the day and we will be left with a Victoria service. I hope it will never happen and the nonsense of pulling the Rainham service won't happen either. TLK runs a very reliable service given the huge number of moving parts each of the service groups encounters. It aint broke no need to change it.

 

[Minstral25]

I've also read several rumours on there suggesting that the North Kent line Thameslink is going back to Southeastern and running like the old service did but via Greenwich and the Thameslink paths from Luton were going to Reigate after London Bridge instead of Rainham.

I don't know about the North Kent Thameslink going back to South-Eastern but it will be several years before any Thameslink is going to Reigate. Reigate can only take 4 coach trains currently and the plans for a new Platform 3 have only been developed in outline and it will take probably 2 or more years to get detailed plans put together at the glacial pace that Network Rail proceed. So perhaps from 2025 onwards?

Additionally, the plan is for the existing Bedford to Gatwick trains to divert to Reigate as they are pointless as a Bedford/London to Gatwick service due to them being overtaken just before Gatwick by the following Bedford to Brighton service.

As a user of the Gatwick-Bedford service South of Redhill this is what we've been briefed that the TLK service will be diverted to Reigate most of the day and we will be left with a Victoria service. I hope it will never happen and the nonsense of pulling the Rainham service won't happen either. TLK runs a very reliable service given the huge number of moving parts each of the service groups encounters. It aint broke no need to change it.

My understanding is that the Peterborough-Horsham service will pick up Thameslink calls at Earlswood and Salfords so that both stations get 4 trains per hour. Can never remember how it affects Horley but I assume Horley swaps from 4 Thameslink per hour to a mix of Thameslink and Southern both at 2ph

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

My understanding is that the Peterborough-Horsham service will pick up Thameslink calls at Earlswood and Salfords so that both stations get 4 trains per hour. Can never remember how it affects Horley but I assume Horley swaps from 4 Thameslink per hour to a mix of Thameslink and Southern both at 2ph

That would be good if it happens and i put that in my response to the consultation. There's time in the current schedule to do that if they drop the Merstham and C.Sth calls and switch those to the TLK Reigate service. Horley has 4 TLKs /hr so would get 2 TLK/2Southern.

 

[southern442]

I also heard that TL to Rainham was being scrapped and also (from another thread here I believe) that TL were planning to serve Reigate after the remodelling work there was done, but I just can't see how those two would fit together on a timescale.

 

[NorthKent1989]

I also heard that TL to Rainham was being scrapped and also (from another thread here I believe) that TL were planning to serve Reigate after the remodelling work there was done, but I just can't see how those two would fit together on a timescale.

I doubt they would get rid of the Thameslink Rainham service, I’ve only heard that it might be rerouted to run via Lewisham/Blackheath.

 

[Minstral25]

I also heard that TL to Rainham was being scrapped and also (from another thread here I believe) that TL were planning to serve Reigate after the remodelling work there was done, but I just can't see how those two would fit together on a timescale.

Correct as far as I can see. They are two separate happenings - Reigate platform 3 has always been about diversion of the Bedford - Gatwick's to become Bedford - Reigate and nothing to do with changes to Rainham services.

 

[southern442]

I doubt they would get rid of the Thameslink Rainham service, I’ve only heard that it might be rerouted to run via Lewisham/Blackheath.

Going slightly off-topic, but this service really is just a bit pointless. If it did run semi-fast via lewisham as per the old Gillingham service, it might actually be useful, but instead it stops almost everywhere (and the few stops it does skip are often passed through at such a low speed that it might as well stop!) and so it's totally useless for providing North Kent with a Thameslink connection. It will perhaps be even more useless once the Liz Line opens. Yes, it's good for giving the south east London stops a connection to the core, but it could've done that by taking over a London-Dartford stopper rather than depriving Dartford, Greenhithe and the surrounding area of a decently fast service to London.

 

[Class 466]

Going slightly off-topic, but this service really is just a bit pointless. If it did run semi-fast via lewisham as per the old Gillingham service, it might actually be useful, but instead it stops almost everywhere (and the few stops it does skip are often passed through at such a low speed that it might as well stop!) and so it's totally useless for providing North Kent with a Thameslink connection. It will perhaps be even more useless once the Liz Line opens. Yes, it's good for giving the south east London stops a connection to the core, but it could've done that by taking over a London-Dartford stopper rather than depriving Dartford, Greenhithe and the surrounding area of a decently fast service to London.

Dartford, Greenhithe and the surrounding area had a fast service to London in the form of the 1Dxx Gravesend to Charing X via Sidcup. Obviously not running at the moment however.

 

[brad465]

Dartford, Greenhithe and the surrounding area had a fast service to London in the form of the 1Dxx Gravesend to Charing X via Sidcup. Obviously not running at the moment however.

Not only that but going via the Dartford Loop line is arguably faster for those towns than via the NK line, the latter having more speed restrictions. I remember when it came to CHX-GRV via Sidcup vs CHX-GLM via Lewisham and Woolwich, the former was faster to Dartford, despite being all stations east of Hither Green, Greenhithe was about the same either way, and Gravesend was better on the GLM service, given skipping Swanscombe and Northfleet made a difference by that point.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Going slightly off-topic, but this service really is just a bit pointless. If it did run semi-fast via lewisham as per the old Gillingham service, it might actually be useful, but instead it stops almost everywhere (and the few stops it does skip are often passed through at such a low speed that it might as well stop!) and so it's totally useless for providing North Kent with a Thameslink connection. It will perhaps be even more useless once the Liz Line opens. Yes, it's good for giving the south east London stops a connection to the core, but it could've done that by taking over a London-Dartford stopper rather than depriving Dartford, Greenhithe and the surrounding area of a decently fast service to London.

I think even if the service was diverted via Blackheath it would still call at the stations east of Charlton that Thameslink calls at already, only difference is that it would be fast from London Bridge to Lewisham but not much difference other than that in truth.

Also with potential developments along the Greenhithe-Gravesend stretch of the line it may be unwise to remove them as stops.

I do however foresee a number of people east of Abbey Wood transferring over to CrossRail once that opens up.

Not only that but going via the Dartford Loop line is arguably faster for those towns than via the NK line, the latter having more speed restrictions. I remember when it came to CHX-GRV via Sidcup vs CHX-GLM via Lewisham and Woolwich, the former was faster to Dartford, despite being all stations east of Hither Green, Greenhithe was about the same either way, and Gravesend was better on the GLM service, given skipping Swanscombe and Northfleet made a difference by that point.

I think when the CX-Gillingham service was rerouted via Greenwich in the early 2000s, it was as fast as a fast train via Sidcup, maybe only a minute or two’s difference even with the stop at Charlton (without Charlton I imagine it would be as fast) but I do remember the trains running fairly fast through Westcombe Park, Maze Hill and Deptford, basically if there are to be more fast trains along the Dartford route in the future they shouldn’t run through Lewisham, avoiding Lewisham means a faster journey

 

[AverageTD]

I think the whole ITT has been binned altogether, if you look on changes in the National Rail network it says South Eastern changes but it’s scratched out in red, it was initially postponed to Dec 2022, but I think it’s been scrapped indefinitely

So going back to the original idea. What will the changes look like now? The Chatham Mainline was going to take hit between Swanley and Rochester but will the current service pattern now remain past December 2022?

 

[NorthKent1989]

So going back to the original idea. What will the changes look like now? The Chatham Mainline was going to take hit between Swanley and Rochester but will the current service pattern now remain past December 2022?

I don’t know, I got the impression that the timetable wasn’t going to change in 2022 now.

 

[brad465]

According to this article today about Southeastern's December timetable change (aside from off peak appearing to return to pre covid), the Blackfriars-Maidstone East regular service appears to be happening from February 2022:

Southeastern announces return of late night trains from major London stations

Hundreds of extra trains per day will run in South East London, with departures after midnight from Charing Cross and London Bridge

www.mylondon.news

Passengers using Southeastern train services in South East London are set to benefit from the return of hundreds of trains per day across the network.

It means that for the first time since the early 2020 lockdown, trains will depart Charing Cross, Waterloo East and London Bridge stations after midnight.

The move comes just days after MyLondon revealed the Night Overground is also set to return to South East London in December.

There will also be increased trains at peak and off-peak times on weekdays, with platform one reopening at London Bridge to allow for more Cannon Street services and more services will be assigned 'City Beam' 10 carriage long trains which will provide more room for passengers.

The changes will start on Sunday December 12, in line with the winter National Rail timetable change.

The train operator, which has officially been taken over by the government due to financial irregularities under previous management, also announced that there will be new semi-fast weekday off-peak services between Blackfriars, Elephant & Castle, Bromley South and Maidstone in Kent from February 21, 2022.

The news is welcome relief for passengers who have complained of relying on expensive Ubers, long bus rides and journeys where they feel unsafe when trying to get back from Central London late in the evenings.

Reinstated trains include seven departures on weeknights between midnight and 12.50am from Charing Cross, Waterloo East and London Bridge to destinations including Hayes, Lewisham, Orpington, Woolwich Arsenal, Bexleyheath, Sidcup, Dartford and Gravesend.

 

[KingJ]

This was mentioned at a recent stakeholder meeting, but reception was somewhat lukewarm - with just 3 return paths and only at weekday off-peak times. The argument Southeastern put forward was that they wanted to test things away from busy periods before a potential increase. However, there were certainly a fair few people who where concerned that a low uptake on the service because of the off-peak timing could be used as evidence that there was insufficient demand for the service and kill off the project entirely.

The 3 return services have been announced as follows and are due to start on Monday the 21st of February 2022;

The 08:42, 11:42 and 14:42 from London Blackfriars-Maidstone East
The 09:55, 12:55 and 15:55 Maidstone East-London Blackfriars
All services will call at Elephant & Castle, Bromley South, Swanley, Otford, Borough Green & Wrotham and West Malling, and at the same stations in the opposite direction.

 

[700007]

This was mentioned at a recent stakeholder meeting, but reception was somewhat lukewarm - with just 3 return paths and only at weekday off-peak times. The argument Southeastern put forward was that they wanted to test things away from busy periods before a potential increase. However, there were certainly a fair few people who where concerned that a low uptake on the service because of the off-peak timing could be used as evidence that there was insufficient demand for the service and kill off the project entirely.

The 3 return services have been announced as follows and are due to start on Monday the 21st of February 2022;

Which driver depot is signing this route out of curiosity? I assume the traction is 465/9s?

 

[Ianno87]

This was mentioned at a recent stakeholder meeting, but reception was somewhat lukewarm - with just 3 return paths and only at weekday off-peak times. The argument Southeastern put forward was that they wanted to test things away from busy periods before a potential increase. However, there were certainly a fair few people who where concerned that a low uptake on the service because of the off-peak timing could be used as evidence that there was insufficient demand for the service and kill off the project entirely.

The 3 return services have been announced as follows and are due to start on Monday the 21st of February 2022;

Looks like it's a morning / evening peak diagram just filling the day by making 3 return trips rather than heading to sidings between the peaks.

 

[brad465]

Which driver depot is signing this route out of curiosity? I assume the traction is 465/9s?

According to this post a while back Ashford appear to be set to sign 465s again for this service, unless something has changed:

Ashford don't sign the Medway Valley, only Tonbridge, Slade Green & Gillingham do. I believe Ashford are resigning the 465s for the MDE-BFR service. 466 are no longer allowed to run on their own - therefore cannot be used on the Valley anymore. There is an issue with platform lengths using a 465 on the valley. Which is why it's diagrammed for a 375/3 series. A 4 car 375 has to SDO release at 2 stations.

If 465/466s do return they could in theory run up to 8 car on the calling pattern further above, as long as Kemsing and/or Barming don't get added, otherwise the max is 6 car. That said I don't see demand, especially off peak, warranting 8 cars for that service, 4-6 car is probably enough.

 

[James90012]

Showing in realtimetrains:

Realtime Trains - Departures from Maidstone East

Realtime Trains - Departures from Maidstone East

Take the point that a limited service will be difficult to prove a market for, but these are well timed for business meetings etc (remember those!). 65 minutes is pretty good for a Catford Loop routing too.

 

[bramling]

Showing in realtimetrains:

Realtime Trains - Departures from Maidstone East

Realtime Trains - Departures from Maidstone East

Take the point that a limited service will be difficult to prove a market for, but these are well timed for business meetings etc (remember those!). 65 minutes is pretty good for a Catford Loop routing too.

Notable that it's timed for 100mph, which would imply Electrostar rather than Networker.

 

[brad465]

Notable that it's timed for 100mph, which would imply Electrostar rather than Networker.

I've seen Networkers on 100mph timings, and electrostars on 90mph diagrams, so I wouldn't guarantee this immediately. For example, the Victoria-Gillingham stoppers are timed for 90mph, but some of the diagrams are Electrostar operated. In contrast, the pre-covid Victoria-Maidstone East 2x evening peak workings were timed for 100mph, even though at least one of them was always a 6 car Networker allocation. Of course 465s/466s are only 75mph top speed, but I suspect the top speed allocations are related to headcode, and even if an electrostar set runs to Maidstone East on a "100mph max" timing, there are no stretches of line that have that top speed for the full length of the journey.

I don't know the full behind the scenes to Realtime trains, but it would be good for them to get the Southeastern network to catch-up with other parts of the country and actually label each diagram with the class type allocated, at the moment only High Speed services have this (but even if they didn't, relative common sense says only 395s are involved).

 

[Gerard92]

Notable that it's timed for 100mph, which would imply Electrostar rather than Networker.

Looks like it will be using the 377 stock formed from 1F59 (0807 arrival at London Blackfriars)

 

[bramling]

I've seen Networkers on 100mph timings, and electrostars on 90mph diagrams, so I wouldn't guarantee this immediately. For example, the Victoria-Gillingham stoppers are timed for 90mph, but some of the diagrams are Electrostar operated. In contrast, the pre-covid Victoria-Maidstone East 2x evening peak workings were timed for 100mph, even though at least one of them was always a 6 car Networker allocation. Of course 465s/466s are only 75mph top speed, but I suspect the top speed allocations are related to headcode, and even if an electrostar set runs to Maidstone East on a "100mph max" timing, there are no stretches of line that have that top speed for the full length of the journey.

I don't know the full behind the scenes to Realtime trains, but it would be good for them to get the Southeastern network to catch-up with other parts of the country and actually label each diagram with the class type allocated, at the moment only High Speed services have this (but even if they didn't, relative common sense says only 395s are involved).

My understanding is RTT only reproduces the incoming data. So if it’s showing dubious info for Southeastern then that’s where the issue lies, not with RTTT itself.

Same as what will be seen for the GN side of GTR - anything worked by 387s is timed for 365, so it wasn’t possible to determine which was which purely from that. Likewise at times there is mismatch between 387 and 700 timings. From a cursory look I have a feeling they’re all the same (on the GN side), but I could be wrong.

SE shouldn’t be pathing for 100mph stock and then diagramming 75mph stock though.

 

[Ianno87]

.

SE shouldn’t be pathing for 100mph stock and then diagramming 75mph stock though.

Pretty sure Southeastern's 377 and 465 SRTs are all identical anyway, network-wide.