Southeastern metro fleet replacement/improvement

[Peter Mugridge]

Could any of those be operated with 12 car sets, i.e. 3*465? There will be a few 465/9s replaced by 377s which can be used back in Metro routes.

Are there any 12 car platforms apart from the principal stations shared with main line workings?

 

[PGAT]

Are there any 12 car platforms apart from the principal stations shared with main line workings?

Pretty much all of them are 12 car other than the Chatham Mainline into Victoria, Woolwich Dockyard and the Bromley North branch

 

[brad465]

Are there any 12 car platforms apart from the principal stations shared with main line workings?

12-car services exist weekdays on Sevenoaks' stoppers and Dartford-CHX via Bexleyheath. The Sidcup Line is also 12-car compatible, but not sure about the Hayes' line. The main limiting factors in 12-car formation, where platform lengths are not an issue, are availability of enough units and stabling space restrictions.

 

[wls1]

12-car services exist weekdays on Sevenoaks' stoppers and Dartford-CHX via Bexleyheath. The Sidcup Line is also 12-car compatible, but not sure about the Hayes' line. The main limiting factors in 12-car formation, where platform lengths are not an issue, are availability of enough units and stabling space restrictions.

dartford via bexleyheath hasnt been 12 since december 2024 timetable, 10 car max since then

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

dartford via bexleyheath hasnt been 12 since december 2024 timetable, 10 car max since then

I'd be willing to bet money on that being to do with trying to reduce the number of Networkers needed.

 

[brad465]

I'd be willing to bet money on that being to do with trying to reduce the number of Networkers needed.

The number of individual units required in 12 and 10 car formations is exactly the same (three), so I don't see the logic there.

 

[physics34]

The Southern fleet to me looks quite weird, with its lack of a proper Metro train. For example I was on a stopping train from London Bridge to East Croydon today, operated by 2 * Class 377/3, which with its wide 2+2 seating and armrests, seemed out of place for a London metro route, especially considering that Networkers and 450s operate far longer journeys.

Thise poor 3 cars have been shifted around so many times they don't know what they are! I'd have thought after a couple of overhauls it wouldn't be too difficult to swap seats around amongst units, but Southern seem to like the flexibility of the current fleet. Also I reckon now with the installation of the plug sockets the seating arrangement has to be more rigid now, sadly.

 

[Bikeman78]

Are there any 12 car platforms apart from the principal stations shared with main line workings?

I think all the Networker routes through London Bridge were lengthened back in the 1990s. Presumably there was a plan to build more 465s because there were never enough in the original order to run 12 cars.

Could any of those be operated with 12 car sets, i.e. 3*465? There will be a few 465/9s replaced by 377s which can be used back in Metro routes.

If the objective is to bin off the Met Camms, that doesn't really help. They would have to keep 465s instead of 466s.

 

[Robin Edwards]

If Cl37 has moved to Ely today, is there a view to what units might be moving this week?

 

[gmaguire]

The number of individual units required in 12 and 10 car formations is exactly the same (three), so I don't see the logic there.

I know one of the morning trains has been switched from 12-465 to 10-707. If the train the 707 came from has in turn been replaced by 8-465, then that should be a reduction of one 465 overall?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The number of individual units required in 12 and 10 car formations is exactly the same (three), so I don't see the logic there.

Well not really.

Say you have a 12 car on Service A and 10 car on Service B.
They can replace the third 465 on Service A with the 466 from Service B.
Then run Service A as a 10 car and run Service B as an 8 car.

A four car 465 can then go off lease and there's only been formation reductions of two cars.

 

[warwickshire]

Here is the list. (The ones crossed in red are scrapped)

Thank you. For the information.

 

[brad465]

I know one of the morning trains has been switched from 12-465 to 10-707. If the train the 707 came from has in turn been replaced by 8-465, then that should be a reduction of one 465 overall?

Well not really.

Say you have a 12 car on Service A and 10 car on Service B.
They can replace the third 465 on Service A with the 466 from Service B.
Then run Service A as a 10 car and run Service B as an 8 car.

A four car 465 can then go off lease and there's only been formation reductions of two cars.

Okay, I confess I hadn't thought outside the box on this.

 

[wls1]

Realtime Trains | 5L92 2008 Slade Green T&R.S.M.D to Gillingham E.M.U.D. | 17/02/2025

Real-time train running information for 5L92 2008 departure from Slade Green T&R.S.M.D to Gillingham E.M.U.D. on 17/02/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

465908 on its way to gillingham now

 

[XCTurbostar]

I've seen a video of it. No changes to the livery with no branding or NSE stripes.

 

[brad465]

I've seen a video of it. No changes to the livery with no branding or NSE stripes.

Unless these are going to be added at Gillingham depot. Even the 455 in original livery has SWR branding on it.

 

[Goldfish62]

Unless these are going to be added at Gillingham depot. Even the 455 in original livery has SWR branding on it.

Apparently a DfT condition. The TOC identity must be readily apparent.

 

[MrB]

Could any of those be operated with 12 car sets, i.e. 3*465? There will be a few 465/9s replaced by 377s which can be used back in Metro routes.

12-car networker diagrams are quite problematic on several parts of the SE network - among other issues, platforms at Woolwich Dockyard are too short, while only 3 of the platforms at Charing X can be used by 3x 465s coupled up

 

[brad465]

Apparently a DfT condition. The TOC identity must be readily apparent.

So the work being done to their vinyl is very much not done yet.

12-car networker diagrams are quite problematic on several parts of the SE network - among other issues, platforms at Woolwich Dockyard are too short, while only 3 of the platforms at Charing X can be used by 3x 465s coupled up

AIUI Cannon St is not so bad for 12-car flexibility, however the problem there is the demand for 12-car services is lower so rarely used. The one time I remember a 12-car Networker going to Cannon St was during one of the longer possessions closing the Charing X route in the London Bridge works; fewer services into London, plus diversion into Cannon St, meant more 12-car forms were needed and the units were available.

 

[MrB]

AIUI Cannon St is not so bad for 12-car flexibility, however the problem there is the demand for 12-car services is lower so rarely used. The one time I remember a 12-car Networker going to Cannon St was during one of the longer possessions closing the Charing X route in the London Bridge works; fewer services into London, plus diversion into Cannon St, meant more 12-car forms were needed and the units were available.

Indeed, the point on demand is also why CST services often split/join to run as 4-car services outside the peaks, while the CHX services usually run full length all day.

 

[The exile]

The problem is that there are only three (possibly five if you include London Overground and Mersey rail) metro operators needing third rail stock. Currently, unless significant quantities of relatively new stock are scrapped, such homogeneity isn't possible for at least one of them. In the medium/long-term when GBR is up and running that will hopefully change.

No sure that this (scrappage of newish stock) is necessary (if you stick to the 3 SR operators). Just deliver at the minimum rate over a period of about 25 years.

 

[gmaguire]

With regard to the motor problems on the BRELs, the work in the below quote may help with that, or for all we know could be the cause of it. See page 10 at this link for source: https://assets.publishing.service.g...21-business-plan-commitments-2023-to-2024.pdf

30.2 The Operator shall, by no later than [REDACTED] (subject to the inclusion of the relevant costs in the applicable Cost Budget), complete the Traction Control Targeted Works.
30.3 "Traction Control Targeted Works" means, in respect of the Class 465/0 and Class 465/1 rolling stock, the targeted replacement of the traction control system.

 

[adc82140]

Apparently a DfT condition. The TOC identity must be readily apparent.

Network SouthEastern anyone?

 

[branny_rail465]

I think it's a bit mad to retain a small amount of/9s and 466s. Just seems a bit crazy as there will still be separate parts required but not the economy of scale of a larger fleet

Their just better for time keeping acceleration wise, and the inner body work seems to be cleaner & less tacky, maybe thats why? I personally No idea to be honest. BREL 465s also seem to be having alot of faulty motors isolated at the moment, so using MET CAMs as a "jet pack" of sorts probably helps with keeping time also. But again thats speculation on my part.

 

[Mikey C]

Is there actually any evidence that 465/9s are more popular than BRELs?

Well they do have nicer interiors, and seem to be in better condition.

 

[brad465]

When 465908 is properly unveiled soon, are we also going to get the formal replacement order confirmation as part of that? Having the two items announced together would make more sense than just one.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Well they do have nicer interiors, and seem to be in better condition.

“Nicer interiors is questionable”. They have bright gaudy Connex orange everywhere, unlike 465/0/1/2 and 466, which have the more contemporary Southeastern light blue colour scheme, which I think look much better and less brash.

 

[gmaguire]

Their just better for time keeping acceleration wise, and the inner body work seems to be cleaner & less tacky, maybe thats why? I personally No idea to be honest. BREL 465s also seem to be having alot of faulty motors isolated at the moment, so using MET CAMs as a "jet pack" of sorts probably helps with keeping time also. But again thats speculation on my part.

Apparently the BRELs (when they are working) have better initial acceleration while the Met Cams get up to top speed more quickly.

“Nicer interiors is questionable”. They have bright gaudy Connex orange everywhere, unlike 465/0/1/2 and 466, which have the more contemporary Southeastern light blue colour scheme, which I think look much better and less brash.

I agree. I’ve always liked the blue and have never been big on the /9 interior. I didn’t like that they removed the glass by the doors, even though there was a good reason for it (vandalism).

 

[cactustwirly]

“Nicer interiors is questionable”. They have bright gaudy Connex orange everywhere, unlike 465/0/1/2 and 466, which have the more contemporary Southeastern light blue colour scheme, which I think look much better and less brash.

Well the /9s were decently refurbished.
The BRELs were not and still have the original sticky floors and look very tatty

 

[Class 466]

Is October 2027 enough time to get a brand new fleetwide replacement up and running or do they have the option to extend the lease?

October 2027 was the nominal end date for the franchise after OLR took over. Obviously a lot has changed since then. They can only lease a unit for as long as the company is expected to exist. No doubt that it’ll be extended.

“Nicer interiors is questionable”. They have bright gaudy Connex orange everywhere, unlike 465/0/1/2 and 466, which have the more contemporary Southeastern light blue colour scheme, which I think look much better and less brash.

*Network SouthEast light blue colour scheme. They’ve not been touched since introduction beyond a change of seat covers and the lino by the doors