Southeastern plead guilty to breach of Health and Safety at Work Act 1974

[tsr]

Regarding the incident in this thread (I believe), SouthEastern are to be prosecuted by ORR for breaching H&S legislation - see this article.

 

[55003]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-17744655

A rail company is to be prosecuted after a passenger train allegedly overshot a station in East Sussex by almost two-and-a-half miles.

The Office of Rail Regulation (ORR) said it had launched a criminal prosecution against Southeastern.

The firm faces charges under health and safety law.

The London to Hastings train is alleged to have travelled through Stonegate station at 50mph on 8 November 2010 and failed to stop.

No-one was hurt and there was no damage.

The Rail Accident Investigation Branch (RAIB) said it failed to stop as there was "almost certainly" no sand in the sandhoppers which help the train brake.

The first hearing has been scheduled for 24 May at Sevenoaks Magistrates' Court in Kent

 

[wintonian]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-17744655

A rail company is to be prosecuted after a passenger train allegedly overshot a station in East Sussex by almost two-and-a-half miles.

The Office of Rail Regulation (ORR) said it had launched a criminal prosecution against Southeastern.

The firm faces charges under health and safety law.

The London to Hastings train is alleged to have travelled through Stonegate station at 50mph on 8 November 2010 and failed to stop.

No-one was hurt and there was no damage.

The Rail Accident Investigation Branch (RAIB) said it failed to stop as there was "almost certainly" no sand in the sandhoppers which help the train brake.

The first hearing has been scheduled for 24 May at Sevenoaks Magistrates' Court in Kent

That more like failing to stop than overshotting.

 

[OxtedL]

That's bad reporting. It was a leaf fall related incident and the train slid. See the other thread open [Mod Note - Threads Now Merged] which has a link to a previous thread on this incident.

Given as how it did absolutely definitely overshoot, I wonder why they feel the need to say "allegedly".

 

[hairyhandedfool]

That more like failing to stop than overshotting.

If the driver attempted to brake before the station, I'm sure it is an overshoot, if they didn't it would be failed to call.

....Given as how it did absolutely definitely overshoot, I wonder why they feel the need to say "allegedly".

I thought it was standard "don't sue us" talk if something has not been proven to have happened.

 

[swt_passenger]

The RAIB reported on this last year. The unit had run out of sand and not been refilled, because the maintenance regime failed to spot it and deal with it.

Group standards required that a train must not enter service with the hoppers empty, yet the train preparer or driver could not physically check it (at the time).

It's worth reading the report to see how what appears to be a simple thing to check can go wrong despite all the computers, automatic data communication etc, etc.

http://www.raib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/111117_R182011_Stonegate.pdf

 

[notadriver]

The RAIB reported on this last year. The unit had run out of sand and not been refilled, because the maintenance regime failed to spot it and deal with it.

Group standards required that a train must not enter service with the hoppers empty, yet the train preparer or driver could not physically check it (at the time).

It's worth reading the report to see how what appears to be a simple thing to check can go wrong despite all the computers, automatic data communication etc, etc.

http://www.raib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/111117_R182011_Stonegate.pdf

Wouldn't the most effective thing to do is just fill the hoppers with sand during a train prep whether full or not?

 

[GB]

A criminal prosecution???

Yep right o:roll:

 

[ralphchadkirk]

It clearly shouldn't have happened, but I'm not convinced a criminal prosecution is the right way to go about things.

 

[DarloRich]

All Health & Saftey Act breaches are triable summarily however they can be tried on indicment if the mags feels the the seriousness of the offence goes beyond thier powers of punishment. Are they being prosecuted under S.33 (1)?

 

[bronzeonion]

As much as I like Southeastern, having no sand in the hoppers is terrible

 

[BestWestern]

If the driver attempted to brake before the station, I'm sure it is an overshoot, if they didn't it would be failed to call.

You're quite right. If the Driver makes no attempt to stop then the train has failed to call, if an attempt to stop is made but some or all of the train misses the platform, then it is an overshoot. Thought this particular one must be at the extreme end of the scale I would think!

 

[KA4C]

You're quite right. If the Driver makes no attempt to stop then the train has failed to call, if an attempt to stop is made but some or all of the train misses the platform, then it is an overshoot. Thought this particular one must be at the extreme end of the scale I would think!

This was an overshoot, not a fail to call, full stop. The driver had the intention to stop and attempted to do so. Not the first time that it has occurred at Stonegate

 

[pemma]

Train operator Southeastern is to be sentenced over an incident on 8 November 2010 when one of its trains ‘overran a station by almost two-and-a-half miles’.

The incident involved a commuter train travelling from Charing Cross to Hastings in East Sussex, when it overshot Stonegate station by 2.43 miles.

The rail firm pleaded guilty at Sevenoaks Magistrates’ Court to charges under two sections of the 1974 Health and Safety at Work Act.

Southeastern will be sentenced at Maidstone Crown Court on 6 July.

A report into the incident by the Rail Accident Investigation Branch said the train was travelling at about 65 mph when it encountered ‘poor adhesion conditions as its driver applied the brakes to make the scheduled stop at Stonegate station. The train was unable to stop at Stonegate and came to a stand some 2.45 miles (4 km) beyond the station’.

The RAIB investigation identified factors including ‘very low adhesion conditions present at Stonegate’ and the ‘leading sand hoppers were almost certainly empty’.

It said that ‘although there is no evidence that the quality of the rail head treatment was causal in this particular incident, Network Rail has changed the regime and material that it uses to treat the rail head in the Kent route during the leaf fall season, and has installed equipment to apply adhesion enhancement gel to the rails at Stonegate’.

http://www.rail.co/2012/05/23/southeastern-to-be-sentenced-over-station-overshoot/

 

[HSTEd]

How on earth do you overshoot by 2.43 miles?

 

[ainsworth74]

How on earth do you overshoot by 2.43 miles?

By sliding on leaf mulch and not having anything to counter it.

 

[AlterEgo]

How on earth do you overshoot by 2.43 miles?

If you're interested, the RAIB report on the incident is here:

http://www.raib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/111117_R182011_Stonegate.pdf

 

[Pumbaa]

Rail.co and as an extension jcollins must be pretty behind on news - the last two news items posted have been a few weeks late...

 

[pemma]

Rail.co and as an extension jcollins must be pretty behind on news - the last two news items posted have been a few weeks late...

According to the Independent Southeastern only appeared in court earlier this week - was the previous source Nick Griffin's Twitter account?

(Griffin tweeted that a group of Asian men who had been charged of repeatedly raping children had been found guilty before the jury delivered it's verdict.)

 

[A-driver]

Very pleased to see them mention that the driver continued using step 1 initially n the brake and had no adhesion related problems before returning to the company brake policy of step 2 initially and having problems again. We have always said that step 2 causes more slip problems in the leaf fall but management have always insisted that they are right. A 377/375 etc will slip on a dry day if put straight into step 2!

 

[Safety365]

Very pleased to see them mention that the driver continued using step 1 initially n the brake and had no adhesion related problems before returning to the company brake policy of step 2 initially and having problems again. We have always said that step 2 causes more slip problems in the leaf fall but management have always insisted that they are right. A 377/375 etc will slip on a dry day if put straight into step 2!

Over on the TOC I drive for; we're instructed to make our initial brake application step 2 or equivalent (stock dependant) and adjust as appropriate. The sanders will not automatically operate when a wheel slide is detected in brake step 1 on our 455s or less than 50% braking on our Desiro stock.

 

[A-driver]

Over on the TOC I drive for; we're instructed to make our initial brake application step 2 or equivalent (stock dependant) and adjust as appropriate. The sanders will not automatically operate when a wheel slide is detected in brake step 1 on our 455s or less than 50% braking on our Desiro stock.

I think the sanders only operating in step 2 and above is the same on all units but I still find braking lighter and earlier is far less slippy than step 2 initially on some units. I always use step 2 initially anyway in 455s as brake step 1 seems no more than a holding brake and takes too long to reduce speed. 377s though step 1 is equivalent of step 2 on a 455.

 

[swt_passenger]

Rail.co and as an extension jcollins must be pretty behind on news - the last two news items posted have been a few weeks late...

Weren't the previous reports about SE being summonsed over the offence though, eg this BBC report on the 17th April (a few weeks ago) refers to the case going before the magistrates on 24th May, yesterday.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-17744655

and it is now being reported that SE have subsequently chosen to plead guilty to the magistrates?

Isn't that's pretty normal reporting?

 

[No Fault Found]

Very pleased to see them mention that the driver continued using step 1 initially n the brake and had no adhesion related problems before returning to the company brake policy of step 2 initially and having problems again. We have always said that step 2 causes more slip problems in the leaf fall but management have always insisted that they are right. A 377/375 etc will slip on a dry day if put straight into step 2!

That'll be slide?

 

[A-driver]

Is there a difference between a slip and a slide? I've always called it the slippy season?

 

[GB]

I always thought slip was more for wheel spin and slide was when the wheel locked?

 

[A-driver]

Fair enough, never really thought too much about it but makes sense.

 

[chuffchuff]

How on earth do you overshoot by 2.43 miles?

Because the computer takes the brakes off, to keep the wheels round

 

[O L Leigh]

Because the computer takes the brakes off, to keep the wheels round

Er, no. The WSP releases the brake and then re-applies it because a locked wheel exerts almost no braking effect, which is why this train slid for 2.43 miles. It's just like ABS on a car.

Step 1 braking is less likely to induce a slide, but if you do slide in step 1 you don't get any auto-sanding or other assistance. Step 2 works well, even if you do zero the speedo and get lots of WSP activity, because the system actually does a reasonable job of getting the train stopped. Plus you get the full benefit of the on-train systems.

Personally I've always been dubious of using every increasing brake pressures under low adhesion conditions if you look like over-running a platform. If it's going to slide disastrously in step 2 you're hardly likely to get the thing stopped in emergency. However, I know what the policy is and what my boss will expect to see on a download if I happen to go sailing past, so into emergency it will go.

O L Leigh

 

[millemille]

Er, no. The WSP releases the brake and then re-applies it because a locked wheel exerts almost no braking effect, which is why this train slid for 2.43 miles. It's just like ABS on a car.

Step 1 braking is less likely to induce a slide, but if you do slide in step 1 you don't get any auto-sanding or other assistance. Step 2 works well, even if you do zero the speedo and get lots of WSP activity, because the system actually does a reasonable job of getting the train stopped. Plus you get the full benefit of the on-train systems.

Personally I've always been dubious of using every increasing brake pressures under low adhesion conditions if you look like over-running a platform. If it's going to slide disastrously in step 2 you're hardly likely to get the thing stopped in emergency. However, I know what the policy is and what my boss will expect to see on a download if I happen to go sailing past, so into emergency it will go.

O L Leigh

Er, yes.

WSP's primary purpose is to protect the wheels from tread damage.

On the cl375 it is very, very good at this as it runs a very cautious algorithm. When I first started looking at 375 data on XDM I thought there was something wrong as I'd never seen a fleet with so much WSP activity all year round, but 375's suffer from very, very little flat damage.

If the co-efficient of friction between railhead and tread is low enough to cause the wheel speed to slow quicker than the train's speed over the ground when the brakes are applied then the train will stop no quicker whether the wheels are turning or locked.

I've done enough work analysing OTMR downloads on over-runs and on Delta Rail's WSPER rig refining WSP algorithm's to know this to be true.

It's not like ABS on a car. ABS was developed to allow steering control to be maintained when slowing by preventing wheel lock up. An ABS equipped car will stop no quicker than a non ABS equipped car - a skilful driver will be able to stop a non ABS car in a shorter distance all things being equal.

Cl375's deliver sand automatically in all brake steps as soon as WSP activity is detected.

Sand delivery is critical to the effective stopping of a cl375 because the WSP goes off at higher co-efficient of friction than other stock, so the sand is needed to raise the co-efficient of friction to a level where the slip ratio (difference between wheel speed and the train's speed over the ground) is reduced and the WSP stops going off.

If a cl375 driver is heavy on the brake steps in low adhesion conditions it is possible to empty the sand hopper in one trip from RM to Vic.

You also cannot zero the speedo on a cl375. The brake are released on an axle, cycling through all 4 axles in turn, to allow the wheel speed to recover to over ground speed to ensure that the speedo, and hence OTMR, is showing/recording speed over the ground.