Southeastern prosecution

[Ohmy_t]

Hey all. So basically I’ve just received a court summoning letter from southeastern.

Backstory is I short faired my train ticket from Chatham to London. Got caught at Chatham station when returning and was told I would receive a letter. (This was about 6-7 months ago).

I plan on writing a letter to them asking for a out of court settlement. Problem is when the the guy at the station was taking down my details at the station he must have misspelt my last name my one letter, so the misspelt last name is the name on the court letter.

Do I write that letter and mention the misspelt last name or should I leave it?

Any help is appreciated. Thanks.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hey all. So basically I’ve just received a court summoning letter from southeastern.

Backstory is I short faired my train ticket from Chatham to London. Got caught at Chatham station when returning and was told I would receive a letter. (This was about 6-7 months ago).

I plan on writing a letter to them asking for a out of court settlement. Problem is when the the guy at the station was taking down my details at the station he must have misspelt my last name my one letter, so the misspelt last name is the name on the court letter.

Do I write that letter and mention the misspelt last name or should I leave it?

Any help is appreciated. Thanks.

Hi - welcome.

So did they ever write to you before about this (the train company - SE Trains in this case - would usually write to ask for 'your version of events', they might typically do this 4 to 8 weeks after you were stopped) - did you get such a letter? It is probably not a requirement for them to do this but most cases we see on here involve that happening.

Did you give them the correct address for you / have you moved house since you were stopped? That is the chance you have to ask for an out of court settlement.

Is this letter you refer to getting now a letter from the court?

It might help if you could anonymise what you have got and upload it here so people can see where things are in the process, and suggest what you should do next.

It would seem to me that you need to get the details on the letter corrected - you maybe need to start by contacting SE Trains Revenue Protection team to advise them of the error in your name for example.

 

[Ohmy_t]

No I didn’t get a letter from them asking for my version of events; was expecting it but didn’t come.

I have not moved house. The address on the letter is correct. Also yes, the letter came from the court.

I would upload the letter but not in at the moment.

 

[WesternLancer]

No I didn’t get a letter from them asking for my version of events; was expecting it but didn’t come.

I have not moved house. The address on the letter is correct. Also yes, the letter came from the court.

I would upload the letter but not in at the moment.

OK - thanks - totally understand that you may not be able to upload letter until convenient. My hunch is that you will need to contact the court to get your name corrected and see what they advise (since that is where the only documentation you have has come from).

I think it would still be possible to try to seek an out of court settlement from SE Trains but of course that is not something you would do via the court - you need to write / e-mail SE Trains about the case to start a dialogue on that and see if they will engage with you.

Hopefully other people will also give some advice on this.

 

[duncombec]

Could this have been as far back as last October/November? The only reason I ask is that there was a large revenue blockade at Chatham pretty much daily for about 4-6 weeks in that time, and quite a few people were caught (I think there was a question nearer the time). That may help those who can assist you in regard to your actual question with why it had taken so long for letters to get to you.

 

[AlterEgo]

Hey all. So basically I’ve just received a court summoning letter from southeastern.

Backstory is I short faired my train ticket from Chatham to London. Got caught at Chatham station when returning and was told I would receive a letter. (This was about 6-7 months ago).

I plan on writing a letter to them asking for a out of court settlement. Problem is when the the guy at the station was taking down my details at the station he must have misspelt my last name my one letter, so the misspelt last name is the name on the court letter.

Do I write that letter and mention the misspelt last name or should I leave it?

Any help is appreciated. Thanks.

Is it the court summons you have received, or just an initial letter?

What date was the offence, and what date was it put before the court?

 

[Ohmy_t]

Could this have been as far back as last October/November? The only reason I ask is that there was a large revenue blockade at Chatham pretty much daily for about 4-6 weeks in that time, and quite a few people were caught (I think there was a question nearer the time). That may help those who can assist you in regard to your actual question with why it had taken so long for letters to get to you.

Yh it was during that time, I saw the thread about this

OK - thanks - totally understand that you may not be able to upload letter until convenient. My hunch is that you will need to contact the court to get your name corrected and see what they advise (since that is where the only documentation you have has come from).

I think it would still be possible to try to seek an out of court settlement from SE Trains but of course that is not something you would do via the court - you need to write / e-mail SE Trains about the case to start a dialogue on that and see if they will engage with you.

Hopefully other people will also give some advice on this.

Yh I will give them a call. Thanks for your help.

Is it the court summons you have received, or just an initial letter?

What date was the offence, and what date was it put before the court?

It’s a court summoning letter. I didn’t receive any letters prior to this.
Offence occurred in October; didn’t get the court summoning letter till now.

 

[WesternLancer]

So if the offence was in October, isn't it beyond the 6 month 'time limit' for court action that is often quoted on this forum?

Others may be able to advise on the implications of that.

 

[Ohmy_t]

I haven’t seen anything about this but I’ll look it up.

 

[WesternLancer]

I haven’t seen anything about this but I’ll look it up.

@Fawkes Cat often provides a helpful explanation of this eg as per this thread. You may be able to see if the timescale applies to you in respect of this (I do not know if there were any extensions that may apply however, eg if covid rules for court processes extended timescales)

see post #3 in this thread

How long does it take to get a letter?

I had an incident with an RPO at London Marylebone earlier this year. One of the most unpleasant experiences I can remember. He was really obnoxious. Still no correspondence from them though, how long does it typically take? Is there a chance they won’t follow through. It’s been two months.

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Ohmy_t]

Thanks just had a look. It’s actually been 8 months from the incident to recieving the court letter. You may be right about the extension as they still sent the letter.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks just had a look. It’s actually been 8 months from the incident to recieving the court letter. You may be right about the extension as they still sent the letter.

Sounds like it might be when they (the railway) put the case before the court - do you have a date for that? As opposed to date you got the letter / the court sent you the letter.

 

[AlterEgo]

Please post the letter with your personal details redacted. There's a good chance this one is out of time.

 

[Ohmy_t]

Here u go

Sounds like it might be when they (the railway) put the case before the court - do you have a date for that? As opposed to date you got the letter / the court sent you the letter.

I only have 3 dates:
The day of the incident: 05/10/21
Signature of witness statement: 12/05/21
Court date: 31/08/22

Here u go


I only have 3 dates:
The day of the incident: 05/10/21
Signature of witness statement: 12/05/21
Court date: 31/08/22

Sorry meant 12/10/21

 

[island]

You appear to have covered up or cropped out the date the Information was laid before the court. We need to know when this is. If the court was told about the offence after 5 April 2022, Southeastern are past the time limit to prosecute and the magistrates will have to dismiss the case – in other words, you will be off the hook.

Can you check if any other date appears on the paperwork?

If not, you should ring or write to Folkestone Magistrates Court to ask for when this date is.

As your court date is nearly 3 months away you have got some time to do this – if it does turn out the information was laid in time you'll be able to try to negotiate a settlement with Southeastern.

 

[Ohmy_t]

You appear to have covered up or cropped out the date the Information was laid before the court. We need to know when this is. If the court was told about the offence after 5 April 2022, Southeastern are past the time limit to prosecute and the magistrates will have to dismiss the case – in other words, you will be off the hook.

Can you check if any other date appears on the paperwork?

If not, you should ring or write to Folkestone Magistrates Court to ask for when this date is.

As your court date is nearly 3 months away you have got some time to do this – if it does turn out the information was laid in time you'll be able to try to negotiate a settlement with Southeastern.

I have read through and there only seem to be three dates given to me: the date of the incident:05/10/21, the date witness statement was signed: 12/10/21 and the date of the court summoning 31/08/22.

I will be sure to call them and ask them about this.

 

[WesternLancer]

I have read through and there only seem to be three dates given to me: the date of the incident:05/10/21, the date witness statement was signed: 12/10/21 and the date of the court summoning 31/08/22.

I will be sure to call them and ask them about this.

And you have only recently received the court letter I guess? You've not been away and it been waiting on a door mat for you for example. Did you notice if it had a postmark date on the envelope or if you happen to still have the envelope. Just a thought.

I guess court will clarify the date when you can get on to them in any case.

 

[Ohmy_t]

And you have only recently received the court letter I guess? You've not been away and it been waiting on a door mat for you for example. Did you notice if it had a postmark date on the envelope or if you happen to still have the envelope. Just a thought.

I guess court will clarify the date when you can get on to them in any case.

Just got it 2 days ago. Post mark on the envelope says 01-06-22.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

You appear to have covered up or cropped out the date the Information was laid before the court.

The line of the letter that gives the court’s address talks about ‘the information laid today’. So the OP needs to check if there’s anything in the piece of the letter that they’ve obscure to hide their name and address: otherwise, it seems to me that ’today’ will mean the date the letter was issued, which in turn can be taken to be the date that it was franked for postage (i.e.the postmark of 01-06-22).

 

[island]

it seems to me that ’today’ will mean the date the letter was issued, which in turn can be taken to be the date that it was franked for postage (i.e.the postmark of 01-06-22).

I don’t think that can be inferred sadly; it is common for there to be a gap between the laying of information and issuance of a summons.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I don’t think that can be inferred sadly; it is common for there to be a gap between the laying of information and issuance of a summons.

To me the wording of the letter ('You are hereby summoned to appear... to answer the following information laid today') indicates that the information was laid on the same day that the summons was issued.

In the absence of any other evidence, the prosecutors can be challenged as to why 'today' should be taken to be some other unevidenced date.

What this amounts to is that in the first instance the OP should be getting in touch with the court (probably in writing: at this point an email is probably good enough) asking if they can confirm (1) when the information was laid and (2) whether that date was within six months of the alleged offence. There's probably time enough to allow the court a few weeks (say until the middle of July) to respond but if they haven't come back by then, it will be time to be more assertive in raising the point again and seeking an answer.

 

[Haywain]

What this amounts to is that in the first instance the OP should be getting in touch with the court (probably in writing: at this point an email is probably good enough) asking if they can confirm (1) when the information was laid and (2) whether that date was within six months of the alleged offence. There's probably time enough to allow the court a few weeks (say until the middle of July) to respond but if they haven't come back by then, it will be time to be more assertive in raising the point again and seeking an answer.

I would suggest that if the OP is going to challenge this they should consider engaging a solicitor to do so, especially if the case proceeds to court.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Problem is when the the guy at the station was taking down my details at the station he must have misspelt my last name my one letter, so the misspelt last name is the name on the court letter.

Do I write that letter and mention the misspelt last name or should I leave it?

Just to pick up on another point from the original post, I'm pretty sure that a misspelling of your name won't make the problem go away. As long as it's clear to everyone involved who is meant (and you don't seem to have any problem about accepting that the summons is meant for you rather than someone else with a last name that is one letter different from yours) then that will probably be good enough for the courts. So by all means correct the spelling - but don't expect that to mean that the summons will be withdrawn.

 

[AlterEgo]

I would suggest that if the OP is going to challenge this they should consider engaging a solicitor to do so, especially if the case proceeds to court.

I think they won't need a solicitor to make the phone call/contact with the court - anyone can do that to find out a date - but once they have an answer, a solicitor may be a wise choice.

 

[WesternLancer]

I think they won't need a solicitor to make the phone call/contact with the court - anyone can do that to find out a date - but once they have an answer, a solicitor may be a wise choice.

I assume this meant going down the route of arguing it is 'out of time' - but as pointed out earlier there is a good window of time before August to think about that - and also to engage with SE Trains via address listed for SE Trains on the uploaded court document and see if they are open to an out of court settlement too - which if they were would resolve all that (but still cost money of course - tho probably less than legal fees).

So I reckon steps of action for OP to take are probably in this order:

1) ring court - ask when case laid / ask if court agrees it is out of time (and if they will tell you what the implications of that may be, no idea if they would help explain that), also get name spelling corrected. Follow this up with letter to court as advised.

2) Ring one or two solicitors for quote on charges if case out of time needs legal help to progress. See if there is a solicitor who will give initial advice free of charge and consider acting on that advice

3) write to SE trains asking if settlement out of court is possible , with the usual apology / regret type letter (use forum to proof read draft letters etc if desired)

Progress all this quickly so plenty of time ahead of listed court date in case need to write more than once to SE trains about all this

 

[AlterEgo]

I assume this meant going down the route of arguing it is 'out of time' - but as pointed out earlier there is a good window of time before August to think about that - and also to engage with SE Trains via address listed for SE Trains on the uploaded court document and see if they are open to an out of court settlement too - which if they were would resolve all that (but still cost money of course - tho probably less than legal fees).

So I reckon steps of action for OP to take are probably in this order:

1) ring court - ask when case laid / ask if court agrees it is out of time (and if they will tell you what the implications of that may be, no idea if they would help explain that), also get name spelling corrected. Follow this up with letter to court as advised.

2) Ring one or two solicitors for quote on charges if case out of time needs legal help to progress. See if there is a solicitor who will give initial advice free of charge and consider acting on that advice

3) write to SE trains asking if settlement out of court is possible , with the usual apology / regret type letter (use forum to proof read draft letters etc if desired)

Progress all this quickly so plenty of time ahead of listed court date in case need to write more than once to SE trains about all this

I don't recommend asking about an out of court settlement unless the case is "in time". If the criminal case is out of time, it's out of time, and the only way the company can recover the alleged loss is through civil means. TOCs don't generally do that.

Ask when the papers were laid before the court. If it's fouled the 6 month deadline, great. The TOC was too slow and they cannot pursue it in the magistrates' court. Get the case thrown out, which should be simple, but a solicitor could be helpful in this regard.

 

[WesternLancer]

I don't recommend asking about an out of court settlement unless the case is "in time". If the criminal case is out of time, it's out of time, and the only way the company can recover the alleged loss is through civil means. TOCs don't generally do that.

Ask when the papers were laid before the court. If it's fouled the 6 month deadline, great. The TOC was too slow and they cannot pursue it in the magistrates' court. Get the case thrown out, which should be simple, but a solicitor could be helpful in this regard.

Thanks - that sounds like good advice ref my post.

 

[Ohmy_t]

I assume this meant going down the route of arguing it is 'out of time' - but as pointed out earlier there is a good window of time before August to think about that - and also to engage with SE Trains via address listed for SE Trains on the uploaded court document and see if they are open to an out of court settlement too - which if they were would resolve all that (but still cost money of course - tho probably less than legal fees).

So I reckon steps of action for OP to take are probably in this order:

1) ring court - ask when case laid / ask if court agrees it is out of time (and if they will tell you what the implications of that may be, no idea if they would help explain that), also get name spelling corrected. Follow this up with letter to court as advised.

2) Ring one or two solicitors for quote on charges if case out of time needs legal help to progress. See if there is a solicitor who will give initial advice free of charge and consider acting on that advice

3) write to SE trains asking if settlement out of court is possible , with the usual apology / regret type letter (use forum to proof read draft letters etc if desired)

Progress all this quickly so plenty of time ahead of listed court date in case need to write more than once to SE trains about all this

Rang them and they couldn’t provide it; told information about my case hasn’t been updated on their system yet. They could only see on their dairy the court room in use the date of my summoning.

They said southeastern have a large block of court cases for that day but no details on my case yet.

They gave me their email, so will email them about it.

 

[furlong]

Call them again - or email them if it is the court's email address you were given (not southeastern's). The jargon is confusing. "Laying of an information". You aren't asking for 'information' about your case, but rather the date on which an 'information' was laid before the court, which led the the issuing of the summons.

 

[Ohmy_t]

Call them again - or email them if it is the court's email address you were given (not southeastern's). The jargon is confusing. "Laying of an information". You aren't asking for 'information' about your case, but rather the date on which an 'information' was laid before the court, which led the the issuing of the summons.

Yh problem is when they typed in my name and case reference number, nothing came up.