Southeastern revenue staff making an appearance

[Terry Tait]

Paddock Wood, cheap and nasty phone.

 

[Antman]

I have used Southeastern's Sidcup line for twenty five years, the first twenty two as a peak hours commuter, the last three as a predominantly off peak traveller three or four times a week. My local stations Sidcup and New Eltham are gated, Sidcup gates seem to be manned for much of the day, New Eltham's less so. New Eltham has gates in the station building but no gates on the stairs where most passengers from down trains alight.

The next three stations, Mottingham, Lee and Hither Green, are ungated. There may be occasional ticket inspections there, although I have never observed them from the train.

I cannot remember the last on board ticket inspection I witnessed on the Sidcup line. But I am pretty sure it was well over ten years ago, probably longer.

I have also witnessed passengers doubling up to go through the gates at Charing Cross without tickets. The gate staff seem to ignore it. I do understand the risks of challenging potentially hostile fare evaders. I once asked a chap on the gates about this just after this happened and he just shrugged his shoulders.

Much the same as my experiences on Southeastern and I get the impression that revenue checks in the London area have been all but abandoned because of oyster/contactless, obviously paper tickets can be checked with a glance, and the threat of violence against staff. I often saw ticket checks at Blackheath in the evening peak years ago but nothing recently.

 

[Meerkat]

But nobody will know they are 'revenue bods' if they are not in uniform. A high profile presence will be far more effective.

If you haven’t got enough then a high profile presence is not many places and the bad guys warn each other.
Once word gets around that there are plain clothed guys about that nab you before you can move down the train/get off they are effectively everywhere (like the fear of unmarked police cars)

 

[Antman]

If you haven’t got enough then a high profile presence is not many places and the bad guys warn each other.
Once word gets around that there are plain clothed guys about that nab you before you can move down the train/get off they are effectively everywhere (like the fear of unmarked police cars)

In all my years of travelling on Southeastern I've never encountered any plain clothed RPIs and uniformed ones are getting rarer.

 

[tsr]

But nobody will know they are 'revenue bods' if they are not in uniform. A high profile presence will be far more effective.

Not necessarily. I know of several "high-visibility" stings which have fallen flat on their faces because the miscreants have just run away before boarding a train which clearly had staff in uniform loitering onboard. Same goes with passengers continuing further than their destination if a ticket check is evident on the platform.

If the staff aren't uniformed, there's more chance to spot or confirm behavioural patterns such as fare evasion, or (if there's then enough evidence) nab the culprits quickly so that they can be positively identified. Identification can be one of the major issues with fare evasion, since it's easy to observe behaviour but not always easy to track the person down and get valid personal details. The element of surprise can really help.

In all my years of travelling on Southeastern I've never encountered any plain clothed RPIs and uniformed ones are getting rarer.

It wouldn't be the first of the Go Ahead TOCs to have spent some years in a state of indecision about whether plain-clothes revenue ops were worthwhile. What I will say, though, is that almost every TOC will do plain-clothes ops, but RPIs or other "traditional" revenue grades won't always participate or take the lead. There are plenty of other flavours of enforcement out there.

 

[BluePenguin]

Heading further East, I'd estimate the % of times the gates at Canterbury West are in operation (off peak at least) is about one time in ten, at best. On a lot of High Speed services there don't seem to be checks before Ashford, either.

DP

For the record, Broadstairs does not have gates nor do any of the stations in Thanet. I agree with you, Canterbury West used to have the barriers in operation all the time but that doesn't seem to be the case anymore. They have been left open the last 3 times I have been. Canterbury East however is a different story with the barriers closed almost all of the time.

Personally, checking tickets on high speed services between St Pancras and Ashford makes not sense as all the International stations are gated nearly all of the time. Most of the worse fare evasion takes place in Mid and North Kent, mostly local journeys too.

 

[Antman]

For the record, Broadstairs does not have gates nor do any of the stations in Thanet. I agree with you, Canterbury West used to have the barriers in operation all the time but that doesn't seem to be the case anymore. They have been left open the last 3 times I have been. Canterbury East however is a different story with the barriers closed almost all of the time.

Personally, checking tickets on high speed services between St Pancras and Ashford makes not sense as all the International stations are gated nearly all of the time. Most of the worse fare evasion takes place in Mid and North Kent, mostly local journeys too.

There is often serious over crowding at Canterbury West, I suspect that's the main reason why barriers are often open.

 

[sprunt]

As a counter anecdote to all the "nobody on Southeastern touches in" stories, I was passing through Catford Bridge yesterday (using the platform steps to get up from Adenmore Road to Catford Road) at about 4.30 and there were plenty of people heading onto the platform, the overwhelming majority of who touched in.

 

[Antman]

As a counter anecdote to all the "nobody on Southeastern touches in" stories, I was passing through Catford Bridge yesterday (using the platform steps to get up from Adenmore Road to Catford Road) at about 4.30 and there were plenty of people heading onto the platform, the overwhelming majority of who touched in.

I don't think anyone has said that nobody touches in and out? Just that a disproportionate number don't.

 

[Antman]

I heard a report of a LO RPI being assaulted at Goodmayes recently, does anybody really want to do the job in London?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I heard a report of a LO RPI being assaulted at Goodmayes recently, does anybody really want to do the job in London?

Regrettably - that used to happen over 20 years ago - in fact a ticket collector at (I think) Seven Kings was fatally stabbed.

Done my share of ticket checks on the North London and DC lines as management on "zero tolerance" excercises , could be "interesting" - but 95%+ of the passengers were sound (if not entirely legal ticket wise)

 

[sprunt]

I don't think anyone has said that nobody touches in and out? Just that a disproportionate number don't.

There's certainly been the heavy suggestion that it's the exception rather than the norm, which is contrary to what I saw.

 

[HH]

Plain clothes RPIs are generally used for fraud purposes, but there’s nothing to stop them making random ticket checks while so dressed. It might also be an attempt to change expectations by mixing in a few plain clothes checks with the normal uniformed ones.

 

[ScottGallagher]

Is it fair to assume that when BR/TOCs decided to reduce /destaff the former Network Southeast areas in particular that the savings predicted at the time would be worth the increase in fare evasion and vandalism, absolute folly with hindsight coupled with the general breakdown of respect in society where some people do what the hell they like with impunity.

 

[ScotGG]

It was a crazy decision. It rapidly spread after guards went that the railway was free. Barely anyone I knew was paying for local trips by the mid to late 90s on DOO services.

 

[lancastria]

The vast majority of journeys on suburban SE trains are to central London and are for work with a good wedge in addition for pleasure.
You can take a punt on travelling for free if you want to rush the barriers at London stations, but that's not sustainable for a commuter.
So, just by gating London stations - Waterloo East, Charing X, Blackfriars, London Bridge - almost all travellers will find they have to pay.
Other larger interchange or terminal stations in outer London - New X, Lewisham, Orpington, Dartford, Woolwich Arsenal - have barriers, so taking longer journeys is also not so easy for the fare dodger.
There are many stations without barriers - Greenwich, Ladywell, Maze Hill, Blackheath, Charlton, Westcombe Park, all the stations out to Orpington from Lewisham (I think), and some on the Dartford loop - but the numbers travelling from these ungated stations to other ungated stations is going to be nearly infinitesimal compared to total passenger (and revenue) figures.
Further out of London the big stations at Strood, Rochester, Gillingham and Chatham are all gated and can be policed (I've seen it) and the Javelin service seems always to be well policed by the guard/inspector.
I can't see where SE are missing out on big piles of revenue.

 

[KingJ]

Although the central London stations are gated, a common workaround going by posts on the Disputes & Prosecutions subforum seems to be to purchase a season ticket which only covers Z1-2. Still lets you get in and out at the gated central London stations and exit at an ungated Z3-6 station at a reduced price compared to an actual Z1-3/4/5/6 season. Of course, the very fact that people are posting about this on the Disputes & Prosecutions subforum shows that there is at least some level of checks and enforcement going on!

 

[Horizon22]

Although the central London stations are gated, a common workaround going by posts on the Disputes & Prosecutions subforum seems to be to purchase a season ticket which only covers Z1-2. Still lets you get in and out at the gated central London stations and exit at an ungated Z3-6 station at a reduced price compared to an actual Z1-3/4/5/6 season. Of course, the very fact that people are posting about this on the Disputes & Prosecutions subforum shows that there is at least some level of checks and enforcement going on!

I'm aware of several cases where passengers have been prosecuted and / or given heavy fines for this sort of behaviour because in reality they've come from a Medway town.

 

[Timmyd]

The vast majority of journeys on suburban SE trains are to central London and are for work with a good wedge in addition for pleasure.
You can take a punt on travelling for free if you want to rush the barriers at London stations, but that's not sustainable for a commuter.
So, just by gating London stations - Waterloo East, Charing X, Blackfriars, London Bridge - almost all travellers will find they have to pay.
Other larger interchange or terminal stations in outer London - New X, Lewisham, Orpington, Dartford, Woolwich Arsenal - have barriers, so taking longer journeys is also not so easy for the fare dodger.
There are many stations without barriers - Greenwich, Ladywell, Maze Hill, Blackheath, Charlton, Westcombe Park, all the stations out to Orpington from Lewisham (I think), and some on the Dartford loop - but the numbers travelling from these ungated stations to other ungated stations is going to be nearly infinitesimal compared to total passenger (and revenue) figures.
Further out of London the big stations at Strood, Rochester, Gillingham and Chatham are all gated and can be policed (I've seen it) and the Javelin service seems always to be well policed by the guard/inspector.
I can't see where SE are missing out on big piles of revenue.

You’re forgetting the large numbers of people getting off an ungated stations on the edge of central London, namely Brixton and Elephant & Castle (E&C mostly TL of course but same principle applies) where almost all traffic is from the suburbs rather than travelling to terminals. It is obvious when calling at those stations that ticketless travel is rife and in over a decade of commuting from West Dulwich I have never seen an on train ticket inspection on SE. Unfortunately both these stations very hard to gate owing to their configuration (Brixton you could do the down but definitely not the up), but the leakage at both these stations must be huge.

 

[ScotGG]

The vast majority of journeys on suburban SE trains are to central London and are for work with a good wedge in addition for pleasure.
You can take a punt on travelling for free if you want to rush the barriers at London stations, but that's not sustainable for a commuter.
So, just by gating London stations - Waterloo East, Charing X, Blackfriars, London Bridge - almost all travellers will find they have to pay.
Other larger interchange or terminal stations in outer London - New X, Lewisham, Orpington, Dartford, Woolwich Arsenal - have barriers, so taking longer journeys is also not so easy for the fare dodger.
There are many stations without barriers - Greenwich, Ladywell, Maze Hill, Blackheath, Charlton, Westcombe Park, all the stations out to Orpington from Lewisham (I think), and some on the Dartford loop - but the numbers travelling from these ungated stations to other ungated stations is going to be nearly infinitesimal compared to total passenger (and revenue) figures.
Further out of London the big stations at Strood, Rochester, Gillingham and Chatham are all gated and can be policed (I've seen it) and the Javelin service seems always to be well policed by the guard/inspector.
I can't see where SE are missing out on big piles of revenue.

I'd disagree the "vast majority" of journeys now are to central London. In the peak the majority are, though the vast majority? Not my experience as a daily passenger for decades. What about those transferring to/from the DLR? Tap in at Bank/Canary Wharf/Stratford etc then out at Woolwich A and carry on to open stations. True numbers of passengers are not being counted.

There's also lot of trips now locally off-peak for shops, work etc all along the line. Big growth in that market. SE Metro passes numerous busy and fast growing towns - plus aforementioned DLR stations. Charlton, Greenwich, Plumstead, Belvedere, Deptford, Erith etc etc have new homes, shops, employment. All those stations are in areas that have changed hugely the past 20 years but staffing hasn't. All are open all the time and that's just one line.

You mention Woolwich Arsenal with barriers (yet still open most of the time) yet Woolwich Dockyard lacks them half a mile away - as does Plumstead.

HS1 and long distance is a different matter but that's not what is being discussed. I'm not sure if you're a daily metro but believe me ticketless travel its endemic - as any staff member will tell you.

 

[ComUtoR]

I'm not sure if you're a daily metro but believe me ticketless travel its endemic - as any staff member will tell you.

Its not as bad as you make out.

 

[ScotGG]

Its not as bad as you make out.

A lot of RPI staff would disagree. Not everywhere of course but some lines during off-peak have extremely high levels of evasion/short tickets etc. Despite being off-peak it's large numbers on each train when blocks are put up. Many RPI staff would say they lack resources to do it anywhere near enough though with some places seeing none for many months or even years.

 

[ComUtoR]

A lot of RPI staff would disagree.

No they wouldn't.

RPIs see the worst side of the railway and are in the business of 'catching people'

Despite being off-peak it's large numbers on each train when blocks are put up.

I'd like to see these 'large numbers'

some places seeing none for many months or even years.

As I've mentioned before. They go where they are needed.


Specifically targeting hotspots or stations without barriers means your statistics are almost instantly skewed. Even in those situations if you counted the number of passengers who actually pass the gates with tickets you will see the % of people getting caught is a drop in the ocean.

 

[lancastria]

I'd disagree the "vast majority" of journeys now are to central London. In the peak the majority are, though the vast majority? Not my experience as a daily passenger for decades. What about those transferring to/from the DLR? Tap in at Bank/Canary Wharf/Stratford etc then out at Woolwich A and carry on to open stations. True numbers of passengers are not being counted.

I can tell you're a regular commuter, but you've not thought intelligently about this, or done any basic research.
Between 8 and 9am weekdays there are 80 SE trains through London Bridge; assume half of these are up trains, so 40 trains. Up trains at this time and for most of the hour before and also until about 9.30am standing room only.
Assume conservatively that these 40 trains are eight cars long and carry 75 passengers per car. That's about 24,000 passengers. More realistically these trains average 10 cars and each car has 100 commuters or more. That's about 40,000 passengers. And of course the same back home in the evening.
None of these travellers will be ticketless. These totals are far in excess of any numbers you can plausibly create for fare evaders. There would have to be several major traffic flows continously unbarriered for fare evader totals to make anything more than a tiny percentage of passenger totals.
Your example of Woolwich Arsenal is a really poor choice. WA has barriers, and they are in use, I can tell you. There is no way a traveller is going to regularly fare evade by slipping from DLR to SE at WA and vice versa, and less chance of this happening in the peak. Using Woolwich Dockyard is a major inconvenience, adding 20 minutes to half an hour to a daily commute. This is not going to appeal to more than a handful of people.


[/QUOTE]There's also lot of trips now locally off-peak for shops, work etc all along the line. Big growth in that market. SE Metro passes numerous busy and fast growing towns - plus aforementioned DLR stations. Charlton, Greenwich, Plumstead, Belvedere, Deptford, Erith etc etc have new homes, shops, employment. All those stations are in areas that have changed hugely the past 20 years but staffing hasn't. All are open all the time and that's just one line.[/QUOTE]
I've used most of the stations you quote, and daily see traffic flows at some of them. There's clearly fare evasion going on, but it's a tiny number. And that's my point -- the river of people getting on and off at Deptford and Greenwich at peak times are almost all heading or coming from central London, and they all have tickets. There are literally a hundred off some peak trains at Deptford and none of them will be fare dodgers. Late in the evening, or journeys from Plumstead to Greenwich for example, then there will be fare dodgers and I've seen them. But that total number is truly tiny set against the main flow of commuters.
It's a commuter railway, designed to capture revenue from commuters and it works at that. The tiny numbers and tiny revenues from four kids and two adults dodging their fares on a mid-evening service is clearly not worth bothering about; they are freeloaders, and they are not breaking the system just exploiting it.

 

[RJ]

The DLR interchange at Woolwich does have blocks on from time to time. For my sins, I have been a daily SE metro commuter for a few years but between two gated stations which are manned.

When I was a Canterbury West commuter I had a personalised ticket inspection service for a while. However Southeastern's actions ended up costing the company tens of thousands, if not into the hundreds of thousands of pounds - a small cost for discovering that legally, you can't really get a holder of a valid ticket done for fare evasion!

 

[ScotGG]

I can tell you're a regular commuter, but you've not thought intelligently about this, or done any basic research.
Between 8 and 9am weekdays there are 80 SE trains through London Bridge; assume half of these are up trains, so 40 trains. Up trains at this time and for most of the hour before and also until about 9.30am standing room only.
Assume conservatively that these 40 trains are eight cars long and carry 75 passengers per car. That's about 24,000 passengers. More realistically these trains average 10 cars and each car has 100 commuters or more. That's about 40,000 passengers. And of course the same back home in the evening.
None of these travellers will be ticketless. These totals are far in excess of any numbers you can plausibly create for fare evaders. There would have to be several major traffic flows continously unbarriered for fare evader totals to make anything more than a tiny percentage of passenger totals.
Your example of Woolwich Arsenal is a really poor choice. WA has barriers, and they are in use, I can tell you. There is no way a traveller is going to regularly fare evade by slipping from DLR to SE at WA and vice versa, and less chance of this happening in the peak. Using Woolwich Dockyard is a major inconvenience, adding 20 minutes to half an hour to a daily commute. This is not going to appeal to more than a handful of people.

There's a lot I'd dispute here but will be brief. Of course peak flows are very high but my questioning was of your use of vast majority going to central London terminals across the full 18 hour period and not just peaks (and even then I agreed it was the majority but not vast majority which I'd put at 95%) and also the use of tiny in terms of numbers not paying/using childs tickets/having short tickets to get through central London barriers.

I guess it comes down to terminology. For me vast majority means a very high % and tiny means a couple of per cent.

I would object to WA and barriers. The station is often open in my experience especially at the top of the DLR station. The disabled barrier is very often open. "There is no way a traveller is going to regularly fare evade by slipping from DLR to SE at WA and vice versa" - really? It's a doddle especially Kent bound. Even if one sees an SE RPI they can then tap in at the SE platform entrance and you see them when getting off the DLR and going up.

And a 20 minute extra commute from Dockyard? If coming from the east perhaps but as someone who worked in Woolwich for a while I can say that's wrong for many. If someone lives in the western half of Woolwich (say from western Powis street/Hare Street and surrounds) its just as quick to use WD than WA when heading west. It's not far at all.

Ultimately I'd agree most people are going to central London but would say fare evasion is higher than tiny when looked at across the entire operating period. Didn't Abbey Wood's passenger count double when barriers went in? That must show something above tiny levels not paying.

 

[Antman]

There's a lot I'd dispute here but will be brief. Of course peak flows are very high but my questioning was of your use of vast majority going to central London terminals across the full 18 hour period and not just peaks (and even then I agreed it was the majority but not vast majority which I'd put at 95%) and also the use of tiny in terms of numbers not paying/using childs tickets/having short tickets to get through central London barriers.

I guess it comes down to terminology. For me vast majority means a very high % and tiny means a couple of per cent.

I would object to WA and barriers. The station is often open in my experience especially at the top of the DLR station. The disabled barrier is very often open. "There is no way a traveller is going to regularly fare evade by slipping from DLR to SE at WA and vice versa" - really? It's a doddle especially Kent bound. Even if one sees an SE RPI they can then tap in at the SE platform entrance and you see them when getting off the DLR and going up.

And a 20 minute extra commute from Dockyard? If coming from the east perhaps but as someone who worked in Woolwich for a while I can say that's wrong for many. If someone lives in the western half of Woolwich (say from western Powis street/Hare Street and surrounds) its just as quick to use WD than WA when heading west. It's not far at all.

Ultimately I'd agree most people are going to central London but would say fare evasion is higher than tiny when looked at across the entire operating period. Didn't Abbey Wood's passenger count double when barriers went in? That must show something above tiny levels not paying.

I've often found at least some of the ticket gates at Woolwich Arsenal open as well as the step free access gate on platform 1.

 

[lancastria]

There's a lot I'd dispute here but will be brief. Of course peak flows are very high but my questioning was of your use of vast majority going to central London terminals across the full 18 hour period and not just peaks (and even then I agreed it was the majority but not vast majority which I'd put at 95%) and also the use of tiny in terms of numbers not paying/using childs tickets/having short tickets to get through central London barriers.

I guess it comes down to terminology. For me vast majority means a very high % and tiny means a couple of per cent.

I would object to WA and barriers. The station is often open in my experience especially at the top of the DLR station. The disabled barrier is very often open. "There is no way a traveller is going to regularly fare evade by slipping from DLR to SE at WA and vice versa" - really? It's a doddle especially Kent bound. Even if one sees an SE RPI they can then tap in at the SE platform entrance and you see them when getting off the DLR and going up.

And a 20 minute extra commute from Dockyard? If coming from the east perhaps but as someone who worked in Woolwich for a while I can say that's wrong for many. If someone lives in the western half of Woolwich (say from western Powis street/Hare Street and surrounds) its just as quick to use WD than WA when heading west. It's not far at all.

Ultimately I'd agree most people are going to central London but would say fare evasion is higher than tiny when looked at across the entire operating period. Didn't Abbey Wood's passenger count double when barriers went in? That must show something above tiny levels not paying.

The vast majority of SE travellers have tickets, usually in the form of season tickets; these people are commuters, and it's a commuter railway. London and return journeys at peak times are this railway's stock in trade.

SE-gated exits are at all its main London termini, and that's where the people and the money are.

No daily commuter can rely on gates being open and unmanned on a regular basis, it's just not sustainable.

Fare dodgers exist, I've seen them, but set against the big broad rivers of commuters daily paying their way, the dodgers make a small trickle.

Remember, in any one rush hour somewhere between 240 and 400 carriages pass through London Bridge, each rammed with 100 passengers, as I've shown. You need to show several substantial and sustainable flows of traffic in use constantly to reveal anything other than a tiny percentage of travellers dodging fares.

The situation at several of the larger destinations out of London like Medway towns, Dartford, Orpington and the like, is designed to deter fare dodgers. Ticket barriers at all these places, dodgers just can't rely on a sustainable means of avoiding ticket checks and barriers.

It amuses me at Lower Sydenham to see a man and his bike and four teenagers get on an offpeak service, when they likely haven't a ticket. But I haven't seen (and you haven't shown) any evidence of anything other than an unreliable opportunity for small traffic streams to avoid paying fares. For example, no Canary Wharf worker is going to go to work each day in the expectation of avoiding paying his or her fare for an up and a down journey at Woolwich Arsenal. There will be opportunities to do so, but it's not sustainable.

And the revenue lost from such streams can be nowhere near enough to fund gates at, for instance, all the ungated stations on the Hayes lines, and then man those gate lines from 5.30am to 1am the next day.

To conclude; SE captures the vast majority of revenue across its network with manned gates at most of the heavily-used destinations for most of the time.

 

[lancastria]

You’re forgetting the large numbers of people getting off an ungated stations on the edge of central London, namely Brixton and Elephant & Castle (E&C mostly TL of course but same principle applies) where almost all traffic is from the suburbs rather than travelling to terminals. It is obvious when calling at those stations that ticketless travel is rife and in over a decade of commuting from West Dulwich I have never seen an on train ticket inspection on SE. Unfortunately both these stations very hard to gate owing to their configuration (Brixton you could do the down but definitely not the up), but the leakage at both these stations must be huge.

I've used Brixton regularly, and I've often been at Elephant. Is Elephant really ungated? My memories from 2016 through to 2018 are of barriers. Am I wrong?
As for Brixton; I know it's an opportunity to dodge a fare, and it happens, and I'm sure I've seen it. For the SE network it's a tiny number though, isn't it?
I mean, Brixton gets 8 trains an hour in the peak. Even if all four up trains were rammed with fare dodgers bailing out at Brixton, that's just 3000 commuters. Now the real total is far far smaller than that isn't it?

 

[Antman]

I've used Brixton regularly, and I've often been at Elephant. Is Elephant really ungated? My memories from 2016 through to 2018 are of barriers. Am I wrong?
As for Brixton; I know it's an opportunity to dodge a fare, and it happens, and I'm sure I've seen it. For the SE network it's a tiny number though, isn't it?
I mean, Brixton gets 8 trains an hour in the peak. Even if all four up trains were rammed with fare dodgers bailing out at Brixton, that's just 3000 commuters. Now the real total is far far smaller than that isn't it?

Yes Elephant & Castle is ungated and it's likely to remain that way unless the whole place is rebuilt.