Terry Tait
Member
- Joined
- 31 Jul 2019
- Messages
- 196
Paddock Wood, cheap and nasty phone.
I have used Southeastern's Sidcup line for twenty five years, the first twenty two as a peak hours commuter, the last three as a predominantly off peak traveller three or four times a week. My local stations Sidcup and New Eltham are gated, Sidcup gates seem to be manned for much of the day, New Eltham's less so. New Eltham has gates in the station building but no gates on the stairs where most passengers from down trains alight.
The next three stations, Mottingham, Lee and Hither Green, are ungated. There may be occasional ticket inspections there, although I have never observed them from the train.
I cannot remember the last on board ticket inspection I witnessed on the Sidcup line. But I am pretty sure it was well over ten years ago, probably longer.
I have also witnessed passengers doubling up to go through the gates at Charing Cross without tickets. The gate staff seem to ignore it. I do understand the risks of challenging potentially hostile fare evaders. I once asked a chap on the gates about this just after this happened and he just shrugged his shoulders.
But nobody will know they are 'revenue bods' if they are not in uniform. A high profile presence will be far more effective.
If you haven’t got enough then a high profile presence is not many places and the bad guys warn each other.
Once word gets around that there are plain clothed guys about that nab you before you can move down the train/get off they are effectively everywhere (like the fear of unmarked police cars)
But nobody will know they are 'revenue bods' if they are not in uniform. A high profile presence will be far more effective.
In all my years of travelling on Southeastern I've never encountered any plain clothed RPIs and uniformed ones are getting rarer.
For the record, Broadstairs does not have gates nor do any of the stations in Thanet. I agree with you, Canterbury West used to have the barriers in operation all the time but that doesn't seem to be the case anymore. They have been left open the last 3 times I have been. Canterbury East however is a different story with the barriers closed almost all of the time.Heading further East, I'd estimate the % of times the gates at Canterbury West are in operation (off peak at least) is about one time in ten, at best. On a lot of High Speed services there don't seem to be checks before Ashford, either.
DP
There is often serious over crowding at Canterbury West, I suspect that's the main reason why barriers are often open.For the record, Broadstairs does not have gates nor do any of the stations in Thanet. I agree with you, Canterbury West used to have the barriers in operation all the time but that doesn't seem to be the case anymore. They have been left open the last 3 times I have been. Canterbury East however is a different story with the barriers closed almost all of the time.
Personally, checking tickets on high speed services between St Pancras and Ashford makes not sense as all the International stations are gated nearly all of the time. Most of the worse fare evasion takes place in Mid and North Kent, mostly local journeys too.
I don't think anyone has said that nobody touches in and out? Just that a disproportionate number don't.As a counter anecdote to all the "nobody on Southeastern touches in" stories, I was passing through Catford Bridge yesterday (using the platform steps to get up from Adenmore Road to Catford Road) at about 4.30 and there were plenty of people heading onto the platform, the overwhelming majority of who touched in.
I heard a report of a LO RPI being assaulted at Goodmayes recently, does anybody really want to do the job in London?
I don't think anyone has said that nobody touches in and out? Just that a disproportionate number don't.
Although the central London stations are gated, a common workaround going by posts on the Disputes & Prosecutions subforum seems to be to purchase a season ticket which only covers Z1-2. Still lets you get in and out at the gated central London stations and exit at an ungated Z3-6 station at a reduced price compared to an actual Z1-3/4/5/6 season. Of course, the very fact that people are posting about this on the Disputes & Prosecutions subforum shows that there is at least some level of checks and enforcement going on!
You’re forgetting the large numbers of people getting off an ungated stations on the edge of central London, namely Brixton and Elephant & Castle (E&C mostly TL of course but same principle applies) where almost all traffic is from the suburbs rather than travelling to terminals. It is obvious when calling at those stations that ticketless travel is rife and in over a decade of commuting from West Dulwich I have never seen an on train ticket inspection on SE. Unfortunately both these stations very hard to gate owing to their configuration (Brixton you could do the down but definitely not the up), but the leakage at both these stations must be huge.The vast majority of journeys on suburban SE trains are to central London and are for work with a good wedge in addition for pleasure.
You can take a punt on travelling for free if you want to rush the barriers at London stations, but that's not sustainable for a commuter.
So, just by gating London stations - Waterloo East, Charing X, Blackfriars, London Bridge - almost all travellers will find they have to pay.
Other larger interchange or terminal stations in outer London - New X, Lewisham, Orpington, Dartford, Woolwich Arsenal - have barriers, so taking longer journeys is also not so easy for the fare dodger.
There are many stations without barriers - Greenwich, Ladywell, Maze Hill, Blackheath, Charlton, Westcombe Park, all the stations out to Orpington from Lewisham (I think), and some on the Dartford loop - but the numbers travelling from these ungated stations to other ungated stations is going to be nearly infinitesimal compared to total passenger (and revenue) figures.
Further out of London the big stations at Strood, Rochester, Gillingham and Chatham are all gated and can be policed (I've seen it) and the Javelin service seems always to be well policed by the guard/inspector.
I can't see where SE are missing out on big piles of revenue.
The vast majority of journeys on suburban SE trains are to central London and are for work with a good wedge in addition for pleasure.
You can take a punt on travelling for free if you want to rush the barriers at London stations, but that's not sustainable for a commuter.
So, just by gating London stations - Waterloo East, Charing X, Blackfriars, London Bridge - almost all travellers will find they have to pay.
Other larger interchange or terminal stations in outer London - New X, Lewisham, Orpington, Dartford, Woolwich Arsenal - have barriers, so taking longer journeys is also not so easy for the fare dodger.
There are many stations without barriers - Greenwich, Ladywell, Maze Hill, Blackheath, Charlton, Westcombe Park, all the stations out to Orpington from Lewisham (I think), and some on the Dartford loop - but the numbers travelling from these ungated stations to other ungated stations is going to be nearly infinitesimal compared to total passenger (and revenue) figures.
Further out of London the big stations at Strood, Rochester, Gillingham and Chatham are all gated and can be policed (I've seen it) and the Javelin service seems always to be well policed by the guard/inspector.
I can't see where SE are missing out on big piles of revenue.
I'm not sure if you're a daily metro but believe me ticketless travel its endemic - as any staff member will tell you.
Its not as bad as you make out.
A lot of RPI staff would disagree.
Despite being off-peak it's large numbers on each train when blocks are put up.
some places seeing none for many months or even years.
I can tell you're a regular commuter, but you've not thought intelligently about this, or done any basic research.I'd disagree the "vast majority" of journeys now are to central London. In the peak the majority are, though the vast majority? Not my experience as a daily passenger for decades. What about those transferring to/from the DLR? Tap in at Bank/Canary Wharf/Stratford etc then out at Woolwich A and carry on to open stations. True numbers of passengers are not being counted.
I can tell you're a regular commuter, but you've not thought intelligently about this, or done any basic research.
Between 8 and 9am weekdays there are 80 SE trains through London Bridge; assume half of these are up trains, so 40 trains. Up trains at this time and for most of the hour before and also until about 9.30am standing room only.
Assume conservatively that these 40 trains are eight cars long and carry 75 passengers per car. That's about 24,000 passengers. More realistically these trains average 10 cars and each car has 100 commuters or more. That's about 40,000 passengers. And of course the same back home in the evening.
None of these travellers will be ticketless. These totals are far in excess of any numbers you can plausibly create for fare evaders. There would have to be several major traffic flows continously unbarriered for fare evader totals to make anything more than a tiny percentage of passenger totals.
Your example of Woolwich Arsenal is a really poor choice. WA has barriers, and they are in use, I can tell you. There is no way a traveller is going to regularly fare evade by slipping from DLR to SE at WA and vice versa, and less chance of this happening in the peak. Using Woolwich Dockyard is a major inconvenience, adding 20 minutes to half an hour to a daily commute. This is not going to appeal to more than a handful of people.
There's a lot I'd dispute here but will be brief. Of course peak flows are very high but my questioning was of your use of vast majority going to central London terminals across the full 18 hour period and not just peaks (and even then I agreed it was the majority but not vast majority which I'd put at 95%) and also the use of tiny in terms of numbers not paying/using childs tickets/having short tickets to get through central London barriers.
I guess it comes down to terminology. For me vast majority means a very high % and tiny means a couple of per cent.
I would object to WA and barriers. The station is often open in my experience especially at the top of the DLR station. The disabled barrier is very often open. "There is no way a traveller is going to regularly fare evade by slipping from DLR to SE at WA and vice versa" - really? It's a doddle especially Kent bound. Even if one sees an SE RPI they can then tap in at the SE platform entrance and you see them when getting off the DLR and going up.
And a 20 minute extra commute from Dockyard? If coming from the east perhaps but as someone who worked in Woolwich for a while I can say that's wrong for many. If someone lives in the western half of Woolwich (say from western Powis street/Hare Street and surrounds) its just as quick to use WD than WA when heading west. It's not far at all.
Ultimately I'd agree most people are going to central London but would say fare evasion is higher than tiny when looked at across the entire operating period. Didn't Abbey Wood's passenger count double when barriers went in? That must show something above tiny levels not paying.
There's a lot I'd dispute here but will be brief. Of course peak flows are very high but my questioning was of your use of vast majority going to central London terminals across the full 18 hour period and not just peaks (and even then I agreed it was the majority but not vast majority which I'd put at 95%) and also the use of tiny in terms of numbers not paying/using childs tickets/having short tickets to get through central London barriers.
I guess it comes down to terminology. For me vast majority means a very high % and tiny means a couple of per cent.
I would object to WA and barriers. The station is often open in my experience especially at the top of the DLR station. The disabled barrier is very often open. "There is no way a traveller is going to regularly fare evade by slipping from DLR to SE at WA and vice versa" - really? It's a doddle especially Kent bound. Even if one sees an SE RPI they can then tap in at the SE platform entrance and you see them when getting off the DLR and going up.
And a 20 minute extra commute from Dockyard? If coming from the east perhaps but as someone who worked in Woolwich for a while I can say that's wrong for many. If someone lives in the western half of Woolwich (say from western Powis street/Hare Street and surrounds) its just as quick to use WD than WA when heading west. It's not far at all.
Ultimately I'd agree most people are going to central London but would say fare evasion is higher than tiny when looked at across the entire operating period. Didn't Abbey Wood's passenger count double when barriers went in? That must show something above tiny levels not paying.
I've used Brixton regularly, and I've often been at Elephant. Is Elephant really ungated? My memories from 2016 through to 2018 are of barriers. Am I wrong?You’re forgetting the large numbers of people getting off an ungated stations on the edge of central London, namely Brixton and Elephant & Castle (E&C mostly TL of course but same principle applies) where almost all traffic is from the suburbs rather than travelling to terminals. It is obvious when calling at those stations that ticketless travel is rife and in over a decade of commuting from West Dulwich I have never seen an on train ticket inspection on SE. Unfortunately both these stations very hard to gate owing to their configuration (Brixton you could do the down but definitely not the up), but the leakage at both these stations must be huge.
Yes Elephant & Castle is ungated and it's likely to remain that way unless the whole place is rebuilt.I've used Brixton regularly, and I've often been at Elephant. Is Elephant really ungated? My memories from 2016 through to 2018 are of barriers. Am I wrong?
As for Brixton; I know it's an opportunity to dodge a fare, and it happens, and I'm sure I've seen it. For the SE network it's a tiny number though, isn't it?
I mean, Brixton gets 8 trains an hour in the peak. Even if all four up trains were rammed with fare dodgers bailing out at Brixton, that's just 3000 commuters. Now the real total is far far smaller than that isn't it?