Southeastern revenue staff making an appearance

[DynamicSpirit]

From the SE perspective it has maximised revenue as efficiently as it thinks it can, and the rest is not worth the trouble and expense.
But from a passenger perspective, every time we see fare dodging it is a qualitative example of petty crime paying off and of unfairness.

I suspect that's correct. But there is an issue that SouthEastern's perspective is not necessarily the same as the 'public interest' perspective. Most obviously, SouthEastern have no guarantee of keeping the franchise for many more months. Investing in tackling fare dodging means some upfront cost in - for example, installing barriers, training new staff, etc. which may take some years to pay off. It may well be in the long term public interest (and the long term financial interest of the railways) to do that, while still not being in SouthEastern's interest because they can't be sure of keeping the franchise long enough to recoup the investment. And of course, discouraging petty crime has benefits to wider society that accrue outside the railways. I guess those issues strongly suggest that the Government perhaps needs to be more pro-active on this issue.

 

[sheff1]

Deptford and Greenwich bound passengers in the evening peak on SE services will all have tickets. How do I know this? Because they can't get on at London terminals without one.

This just proves that you do not know. It is easy to get on at London terminals without a ticket. Indeed, the volume of people at those stations makes it easier than would be the case at less busy gated stations.

 

[lancastria]

This just proves that you do not know. It is easy to get on at London terminals without a ticket. Indeed, the volume of people at those stations makes it easier than would be the case at less busy gated stations.

How do you get on at London terminals without a ticket?

 

[sheff1]

How do you get on at London terminals without a ticket?

See post #109 ... Perhaps you think they are all double gating to save the couple of seconds it takes to put a ticket in the gate ?

 

[lancastria]

See post #109 ... Perhaps you think they are all double gating to save the couple of seconds it takes to put a ticket in the gate ?

I have been followed at a gate by a dodger. But why only once?
And how reliable is our personal experience as evidence of a wider trend?
How many a day through London down terminals would you guess?

 

[extendedpaul]

Not really. Go and stand by some busy London gates for 15 minutes and count how many people double gate. You might need a tally counter.

Missed a train tonight from Victoria by a couple of minutes so remembering this post I took up the challenge and observed platforms 3/4 gates for about 15 minutes.

Seven double gaters, all boarding stopper to Bromley South / Orpington.

 

[bionic]

How many a day through London down terminals would you guess

Missed a train tonight from Victoria by a couple of minutes so remembering this post I took up the challenge and observed platforms 3/4 gates for about 15 minutes.

Seven double gaters, all boarding stopper to Bromley South / Orpington.

Considering there are 3 sets of entry gates at Victoria for SE, 4 if you include platform 8 (platform 8 are left open more frequently than the others and are routinely used by fare dodgers who can access 1-7 by walking along 8 and back down 7). Now consider that this is also happening with impunity at Charing Cross, Waterloo East, London Bridge, Blackfriars and Cannon Street. You will find that there are a significant number of people who are not deterred by ticket gates.

Some double-gaters are so adept at their art that the casual observer won't notice they've done it - wide aisle gates can take 3 or 4 more people than just the one who put their ticket in.

I used to work on the ticket barriers. I know what goes on. To suggest that they stop people getting through without a ticket is extremely naive. They might deter the casual or amateur fare evader but the professionals don't even break stride.

 

[Antman]

Missed a train tonight from Victoria by a couple of minutes so remembering this post I took up the challenge and observed platforms 3/4 gates for about 15 minutes.

Seven double gaters, all boarding stopper to Bromley South / Orpington.

Doesn't surprise me at all, only two of the 12 stations that train serves have ticket gates and they're often left open.

 

[Antman]

1. They make it easier to detect some types of fraud (eg. child tickets used by adults)
2. They are one of many types of deterrent for opportunistic fare evaders and criminals
3. They’re useful (although not foolproof) for crowd control

Where there is a culture of fare evasion, they do NOT prevent everything, although most people will purchase some sort of ticket. (Dishonest passengers can usually find some way to get a £2 single-stop ticket which lets them through, sadly.)

However, even at stations with multiple gateline staff and regular police attendance, people do often vault or push through barriers. Funnily enough, London Bridge (one of the busiest commuter stations and served copiously by Southeastern) is one of the worst major stations in the area for this type of misuse.

People pushing through barriers aren't necessarily fare dodgers, I've seen people with legitimate tickets get the dreaded seek assistance and just push their way through. In fairness it can be very frustrating if you're rushing for a train.

 

[ScotGG]

Missed a train tonight from Victoria by a couple of minutes so remembering this post I took up the challenge and observed platforms 3/4 gates for about 15 minutes.

Seven double gaters, all boarding stopper to Bromley South / Orpington.

And those are the "hardcore". If Victoria has no barriers it'd be far higher.

For local journeys away from London terminals with no barriers at 80% of stations it's easy to imagine how high levels must be. Again, when barriers have gone in at outlying stations numbers counted have shot up. That seems good evidence to me it's worthwhile but as DynamicSpirit stated, it's not in SE's interest to do much with continual short term extensions.

TfL see the lines as a goldmine to be tapped - and they're in all liklihood correct over the mid to long term after initial investment.

 

[Antman]

And those are the "hardcore". If Victoria has no barriers it'd be far higher.

For local journeys away from London terminals with no barriers at 80% of stations it's easy to imagine how high levels must be. Again, when barriers have gone in at outlying stations numbers counted have shot up. That seems good evidence to me it's worthwhile but as DynamicSpirit stated, it's not in SE's interest to do much with continual short term extensions.

TfL see the lines as a goldmine to be tapped - and they're in all liklihood correct over the mid to long term after initial investment.

If you're suggesting TfL would increase the level of service between Victoria and Orpington I can't see how that can be done without hampering the progress of fast trains and it would be difficult if not impossible to install ticket gates at many of the stations without a considerable amount of rebuilding.

 

[Kite159]

And those are the "hardcore". If Victoria has no barriers it'd be far higher.

For local journeys away from London terminals with no barriers at 80% of stations it's easy to imagine how high levels must be. Again, when barriers have gone in at outlying stations numbers counted have shot up. That seems good evidence to me it's worthwhile but as DynamicSpirit stated, it's not in SE's interest to do much with continual short term extensions.

TfL see the lines as a goldmine to be tapped - and they're in all liklihood correct over the mid to long term after initial investment.

And that probably doesn't include those with tickets to say Brixton

 

[ScotGG]

If you're suggesting TfL would increase the level of service between Victoria and Orpington I can't see how that can be done without hampering the progress of fast trains and it would be difficult if not impossible to install ticket gates at many of the stations without a considerable amount of rebuilding.

Nope nothing to do with service levels as no more trains can run but staffing stations to obtain more revenue. It's not impossible to rebuild many stations with gates. Obtaining cash from new developments in the vicinity of stations can assist with rebuilds. See large housing projects all around Brixton station for one example - and at numerous other sites. That requires a push from the operator in many cases to obtain said funds alongside NR. SE have little interest in that and NR aren't great.

 

[bionic]

As discussed elsewhere on this forum, a rebuild of Brixton (preferably joining the SE and LU stations with additional platforms for LO) would be a massive improvement. It wouldn't be easy to do though and the cost would be very prohibitive.

 

[ScotGG]

Not a complete rebuild of tracks and joining LO and SE but just the station entrances. As said before a big development is going through planning located between both lines as we speak for hundreds of homes, shops etc. The subway is also being upgraded and Atlantic Road pedestrianised allowing for a possible new ground floor building with gates. It takes working together by various parties and the uncertainties of the franchise is not helping.

 

[Kite159]

I noticed at New Eltham earlier the gateline was in use on the London bound platform...

... Although any fare dodgers would simply use the exit from the Dartford bound platform onto the road so the barriers seem a bit pointless

 

[frediculous]

Anybody got any information onboard ticket checks for longer journeys? I used to use the Chatham Main Line frequently, and was always checked each way between Longfield and Bromley South. Is this typical?

I do this route and I would say we get checked twice a week (I only travel 4 days). It's been more in recent months though and it will be the second check of the trip (train from Sheerness in my case). Sometimes they do another check after Longfield, but then it is a 6-car 466+465 so less to check than a 12-car 375.

Coming back we rarely ever get checked, although some people did move into the next carriage the other day when some revenue staff got on at St Mary Cray but they were only going back to Swanley for a rest!

 

[Antman]

Nope nothing to do with service levels as no more trains can run but staffing stations to obtain more revenue. It's not impossible to rebuild many stations with gates. Obtaining cash from new developments in the vicinity of stations can assist with rebuilds. See large housing projects all around Brixton station for one example - and at numerous other sites. That requires a push from the operator in many cases to obtain said funds alongside NR. SE have little interest in that and NR aren't great.

Rebuilding Brixton would be a massive job, whether it ever happens remains to be seen. I suspect it would be prohibitvley expensive to rebuild many Southeastern stations in order to accommodate ticket gates.

 

[lancastria]

Considering there are 3 sets of entry gates at Victoria for SE, 4 if you include platform 8 (platform 8 are left open more frequently than the others and are routinely used by fare dodgers who can access 1-7 by walking along 8 and back down 7). Now consider that this is also happening with impunity at Charing Cross, Waterloo East, London Bridge, Blackfriars and Cannon Street. You will find that there are a significant number of people who are not deterred by ticket gates.

Some double-gaters are so adept at their art that the casual observer won't notice they've done it - wide aisle gates can take 3 or 4 more people than just the one who put their ticket in.

I used to work on the ticket barriers. I know what goes on. To suggest that they stop people getting through without a ticket is extremely naive. They might deter the casual or amateur fare evader but the professionals don't even break stride.

This is really interesting! I've been followed through a gate once in many years, and I would not think of doing it myself; so I don't see what goes on.
A determined fare dodger is going to exploit whatever weaknesses he or she can find, and double-gating seems to be one of them.
This changes my perspective. There is a problem with fare dodgers, and it's the gate-evaders and double-gaters who are the prime cause. I can see how a commuter from Kent or South London might think it worth the risk of getting caught out in order to save perhaps a £1000 or £2000 season ticket. It's a lot of effort though, with none of the benefits of a season ticket.

Still, I guess SE could scoop up some of these people with more random onboard train checks during the rush-hour. Are those a thing now?

 

[DVD]

I noticed at New Eltham earlier the gateline was in use on the London bound platform...

... Although any fare dodgers would simply use the exit from the Dartford bound platform onto the road so the barriers seem a bit pointless

I use New Eltham frequently and this illustrates one of the problems of revenue enforcement and gating stations, namely that many stations have multiple entrances and exits. New Eltham has three : via the ticket hall (gated, although rarely all day), a side entrance to the up platform (ungated but with Oyster reader), and the down platform stairs (undated but with two Oyster readers). The up side entrance is needed as the ticket hall is closed and locked up at times, the down exit/entrance would be very difficult to gate without major construction work. Even ticket checks can be difficult there as the platform and stairs are not particularly wide.

Hither Green is another ungated station with three separate entrances / exits, one of which is several hundred yards away from the other two. The passageway leading to platforms 4 to 6 is probably too narrow for gates. Major reconstruction work would be needed to make the station fully gated, not to mention the expense of staffing three gate lines.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Hither Green is another ungated station with three separate entrances / exits, one of which is several hundred yards away from the other two. The passageway leading to platforms 4 to 6 is probably too narrow for gates. Major reconstruction work would be needed to make the station fully gated, not to mention the expense of staffing three gate lines.

Three entrances???? I'm familiar with the ramp up from the subway, and I'm aware of the entrance from Platform 1, though I've never used it. Where's the 3rd entrance?

(For what it's worth, very expensive though it would be, I do tend to think Hither Green could in principle do with some re-building anyway, since it's a relatively important station without step-free access to some of the platforms, and the current layout is pretty inconvenient for passengers: A very long walk along the subway and up the ramp to the ticket office, and then you very often have to separately cross a footbridge. I have no idea what you'd realistically do with it to make it more suitable though.

 

[ScotGG]

New Eltham is another very busy station which if a tube station or under many other franchises would have seen another entrance gated years ago. It's not easy but doable. NR own the embankment along the side with enough space for a modest new entrance beside the alley near where new bridge/lift went in or near the existing exit. It'd cost a few quid but ultimately the bullet would be bitten in many areas. It's not a hugely difficult civil engineering job (though if NR do it you can triple costs...). The exit is always congested on the stairs as it is so a wider entrance/exit would be a plus.

I know this will be told is ludicrous etc but a tube station as busy as New Eltham would have seen it happen years ago.

 

[Antman]

Something else I've noticed recently on Southeastern is a seemingly ever increasing number of ticket offices closed due to staffing issues at times when they should be open which isn't going to do much for revenue.

 

[bionic]

Something else I've noticed recently on Southeastern is a seemingly ever increasing number of ticket offices closed due to staffing issues at times when they should be open which isn't going to do much for revenue.

They like a handwritten notice in the window for random closures. Shortlands seems to regularly have this.

 

[paul1609]

This is really interesting! I've been followed through a gate once in many years, and I would not think of doing it myself; so I don't see what goes on.
A determined fare dodger is going to exploit whatever weaknesses he or she can find, and double-gating seems to be one of them.
This changes my perspective. There is a problem with fare dodgers, and it's the gate-evaders and double-gaters who are the prime cause. I can see how a commuter from Kent or South London might think it worth the risk of getting caught out in order to save perhaps a £1000 or £2000 season ticket. It's a lot of effort though, with none of the benefits of a season ticket.

Still, I guess SE could scoop up some of these people with more random onboard train checks during the rush-hour. Are those a thing now?

To be honest i don't think its much of a problem for services in from Kent revenue protection by the Conductors on main line services is very good - probably in the high 90%s for peak in to London and off peak out in my experience through commuting Headcorn to Charing Cross for 2 years. On outbound services there will always be at least 2 Oyster users in my carriage being chinged usually travelling to Staplehurst for some strange reason.

 

[DVD]

Three entrances???? I'm familiar with the ramp up from the subway, and I'm aware of the entrance from Platform 1, though I've never used it. Where's the 3rd entrance?

(For what it's worth, very expensive though it would be, I do tend to think Hither Green could in principle do with some re-building anyway, since it's a relatively important station without step-free access to some of the platforms, and the current layout is pretty inconvenient for passengers: A very long walk along the subway and up the ramp to the ticket office, and then you very often have to separately cross a footbridge. I have no idea what you'd realistically do with it to make it more suitable though.

The subway which runs under tracks and leads to the ramp at Hither Green has one entrance leading to Staplehurst Road plus another entrance / exit on the other side of the viaduct leading to the road Mayflower Cottages, in addition to the entrance at the end of platform 1. (Technically there are four if you include the gate and passageway to the TMD from platform 4 although this is not of course accessible to the public).

Plans have been mooted to give Hither Green step free access. It's been on the wishlist for several years as only platforms 4 and 5 have step free access (and only from the ramp entrances). To reach platforms 3 and 6 both require climbing steep stairs. I think I read recently that Hither Green has been selected for the next tranche of step free works. It's quite doable of course but will require major construction work.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

The subway which runs under tracks and leads to the ramp at Hither Green has one entrance leading to Staplehurst Road plus another entrance / exit on the other side of the viaduct leading to the road Mayflower Cottages, in addition to the entrance at the end of platform 1. (Technically there are four if you include the gate and passageway to the TMD from platform 4 although this is not of course accessible to the public).

Ah, that makes sense. I was thinking of the subway as outside the station, and the entrance being the ramp. Since the subway forms the public route between the two sides of the station, you couldn't gate it anyway - any gates would have to go at the top of the ramp, which would imply serious rebuliding of the ticket office

Personally I think the best solution would be to open up under the present booking hall, building a new ticket office there, with access to both Fernbrook Road and Springbank Road, and stairs and lifts up to the platforms. That would solve the problem of how to gate the station, as well as making it fully accessible and much more pleasant and convenient for passengers into the bargain. Unfortunately, the cost would be huge, and I'm sure someone will be along to say there are other possible projects that would give much better returns

 

[Meerkat]

Bit of space around Hither Green to build some flats around a new station?

 

[HowardGWR]

On outbound services there will always be at least 2 Oyster users in my carriage being chinged usually travelling to Staplehurst for some strange reason.

For someone who doesn't understand this, could you explain what is going on here. Is it that the user has failed to check in and could you explain what they are hoping to achieve before the inspector caught them. Is there no gate at Staplehurst -or what is it?

 

[Antman]

For someone who doesn't understand this, could you explain what is going on here. Is it that the user has failed to check in and could you explain what they are hoping to achieve before the inspector caught them. Is there no gate at Staplehurst -or what is it?

I assume the poster means people intending to travel outside of the Oyster card zone? Guards often make an announcement to that effect at Swanley. Probably a genuine mistake rather than an attempt to underpay and no there are no ticket gates at Staplehurst.