Southeastern revenue staff making an appearance

[paul1609]

For someone who doesn't understand this, could you explain what is going on here. Is it that the user has failed to check in and could you explain what they are hoping to achieve before the inspector caught them. Is there no gate at Staplehurst -or what is it?

The Kent Main line services are with a few off peak exceptions fast from London Bridge to Sevenoaks so London Bridge is the last station where Oyster/ Contactless/ Freedom passes are valid. An announcement is made to this effect before London bridge and is displayed on the internal scrolling PIS.
Its normal for the outbound ticket check to occur after leaving London Bridge and the conductors do catch out a load of people who profess to be travelling on Oyster etc. whether this is a genuine mistake or not I couldn't say. Often overhearing the conversations it seems that Staplehurst is the most popular destination for these people. I can't say whether Staplehurst has barriers or not its not a station I'd ever alight at.
The people never seem too upset when caught. Id have thought though that if they were regular travellers they'd have known that the on board checks are pretty thorough.

 

[Trackman]

The passageway leading to platforms 4 to 6 is probably too narrow for gates.

I don't think it is, set them forward a bit.
There is a flaw in my idea though; The booking office and ticket machines would be behind the gates!
It's been going on for years rebuilding Hither Green for accessibility, local MP has been involved. Not holding my breath.

 

[DVD]

I don't think it is, set them forward a bit.
There is a flaw in my idea though; The booking office and ticket machines would be behind the gates!
It's been going on for years rebuilding Hither Green for accessibility, local MP has been involved. Not holding my breath.

Hither Green was in the list of stations announced by D(a)FT last April for accessibility works, but it was a lengthy list. And it was one of number which had been deferred from previous years as you say. If the problem was only providing step free access, then there might be scope and room for ramps to give access to platforms 3 and 6 rather than lifts, although lifts plus new staircases are the obvious solution. But to do this you would probably need a completely new structure to enable the existing stairs connecting platforms 3 to 6 to remain in use. There is the added complication that the area in between platforms 4 and 5 ibeyond the platform buildings is (or at least used to be) a nature reserve. I suspect that providing a fully gated station on top of this would be a step too far.

 

[Bensonby]

Back to topic: They were on the bridge again this evening between platforms 1/2 and 3/4 at Dartford today, along with several BTP officers on the bridge and also on the gate line. Always good to see.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

The Kent Main line services are with a few off peak exceptions fast from London Bridge to Sevenoaks so London Bridge is the last station where Oyster/ Contactless/ Freedom passes are valid. An announcement is made to this effect before London bridge and is displayed on the internal scrolling PIS.

This reminds of the time back in the days before the London Bridge rebuild, when a small number of peak hour trains didn't stop at London Bridge. I discovered this the hard way, by arriving at Waterloo East Platform C at the last minute and frantically rushing onto the train at the platform, on the assumption that 'everything stopped at London Bridge'. I'm extremely glad that no ticket checks were done between Waterloo and Sevenoaks on that train, or on the train back to London Bridge that I hopped onto at Sevenoaks.

 

[Kite159]

This reminds of the time back in the days before the London Bridge rebuild, when a small number of peak hour trains didn't stop at London Bridge. I discovered this the hard way, by arriving at Waterloo East Platform C at the last minute and frantically rushing onto the train at the platform, on the assumption that 'everything stopped at London Bridge'. I'm extremely glad that no ticket checks were done between Waterloo and Sevenoaks on that train, or on the train back to London Bridge that I hopped onto at Sevenoaks.

At least it was Sevenoaks and not High Brooms

 

[DynamicSpirit]

At least it was Sevenoaks and not High Brooms

Yes that would've been bad. Especially with relatively few trains back from High Brooms (IIRC half hourly in those days). Were there actually trains then that ran non-stop to High Brooms?

 

[Antman]

Yes that would've been bad. Especially with relatively few trains back from High Brooms (IIRC half hourly in those days). Were there actually trains then that ran non-stop to High Brooms?

There are still peak hour Hastings trains that run non stop between London Bridge and High Brooms.

Staff tend to be sympathetic to those who have genuinely got on a wrong train and don't normally charge them for a journey they didn't intend to make.

 

[bionic]

Always good to see

Not if you haven't got a ticket!

 

[ag51ruk]

Yes that would've been bad. Especially with relatively few trains back from High Brooms (IIRC half hourly in those days). Were there actually trains then that ran non-stop to High Brooms?

Go back to NSE days and there was an hourly train fast from Waterloo East to Ashford!

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Go back to NSE days and there was an hourly train fast from Waterloo East to Ashford!

Wow, yes that would be bad for anyone mistakenly hopping on at Waterloo to get to London Bridge!

Out of interest, I know it's a tad off-topic, but what would've been the point not stopping at London Bridge? I would assume that in NSE days, there wouldn't have been all the congestion that more recently motivated not stopping some peak hour trains there.

 

[matt_world2004]

For example, no Canary Wharf worker is going to go to work each day in the expectation of avoiding paying his or her fare

Incorrect several bankers have been prosecuted for fare evasion and some have been fired from their jobs for it. From experiance working on buses fare evasion is highest in the very wealthy areas and very poor areas.

 

[Antman]

Wow, yes that would be bad for anyone mistakenly hopping on at Waterloo to get to London Bridge!

Out of interest, I know it's a tad off-topic, but what would've been the point not stopping at London Bridge? I would assume that in NSE days, there wouldn't have been all the congestion that more recently motivated not stopping some peak hour trains there.

London Bridge couldn't accommodate 12 car trains.

 

[paul1609]

London Bridge couldn't accommodate 12 car trains.

Nor can Charing Cross, there was insufficient platform capacity at London Bridge for all trains to call and there was in the Up direction a relief line which didn't have a platform.

 

[lancastria]

Incorrect several bankers have been prosecuted for fare evasion and some have been fired from their jobs for it. From experiance working on buses fare evasion is highest in the very wealthy areas and very poor areas.

I phrased it as the expectation of dodging a fare, and from the evidence given here by other forum users it seems there are people daft enough to attempt chronic fare dodging. You can't underestimate the stupidity of some!

 

[Antman]

I phrased it as the expectation of dodging a fare, and from the evidence given here by other forum users it seems there are people daft enough to attempt chronic fare dodging. You can't underestimate the stupidity of some!

Well it's not stupid if they get away with it and I suspect that many do.

 

[ScotGG]

123 people found without a ticket at Plumstead station tonight apparently. No idea how that compares to other areas? If all paid the £20 fine (which is not the case as some going to court and will pay greater sums perhaps - or do a runner!) that's a tidy income for one nights work. https://www.fromthemurkydepths.co.uk/2019/10/02/police-launch-operation-at-plumstead-station/

 

[DynamicSpirit]

123 people found without a ticket at Plumstead station tonight apparently. No idea how that compares to other areas? If all paid the £20 fine (which is not the case as some going to court and will pay greater sums perhaps - or do a runner!) that's a tidy income for one nights work. https://www.fromthemurkydepths.co.uk/2019/10/02/police-launch-operation-at-plumstead-station/

Wow, that's quite a lot. Doesn't really surprise me though.

Out of interest, when these checks happen, is there anything to stop someone who hasn't paid from simply presenting a debit card, as if they've paid on Contactless? They would then presumably be charged the maximum fare when the later on the fare-calculating algorithm works from the touch out with no corresponding touch in, but I don't think it'd be possible for the equipment to tell at the point of reading the card whether a debit card has been touched in, and therefore they couldn't be charged a penalty fare? Or am I missing something?

 

[ScotGG]

Apparently there were so many people without correct ticket they couldn't process them all so many let go. And the comedic site of people panicking and jumping back on the train upon seeing police on footbridge and stairs. So many at a time they couldn't do much about it. Presumably then onto Belvedere then bus to Plumstead. Saves a £20 fine!

Seems 123 was far from the actual figure. Backs up claims that fare evasion numbers are very high.

 

[Barn]

This felt like an intense operation. Haven't seen anything like it before. Must have been 6 or 7 RPIs and 8 police / PCSOs. Knife arches and drug sniffer dogs too.

 

[Joe Paxton]

This felt like an intense operation. Haven't seen anything like it before. Must have been 6 or 7 RPIs and 8 police / PCSOs. Knife arches and drug sniffer dogs too.

I've seen similar a number of times in years past. Sometimes including Met plod as well as BTP, and occasionally even immigration officers.

 

[ScotGG]

Yep it happens on occasion. Havn't seen many the past 5 years. Maybe all this activity since this started to appear on this forum is a coincidence...

 

[Horizon22]

Nor can Charing Cross, there was insufficient platform capacity at London Bridge for all trains to call and there was in the Up direction a relief line which didn't have a platform.

Not quite true (unless you're referring to the London Bridge rebuild timetable) - you can't have 12 car 465s on Platforms 4-6 but the mainline stock have SDO so its fine for them.

 

[Horizon22]

Apparently there were so many people without correct ticket they couldn't process them all so many let go. And the comedic site of people panicking and jumping back on the train upon seeing police on footbridge and stairs. So many at a time they couldn't do much about it. Presumably then onto Belvedere then bus to Plumstead. Saves a £20 fine!

Seems 123 was far from the actual figure. Backs up claims that fare evasion numbers are very high.

Plumstead is probably one of the worst places for fare evasion on the entire SE metro network.

 

[ScotGG]

Would it be much different in terms of % of passengers at Erith, Belvedere, Woolwich Dockyard, Charlton, Deptford etc?

 

[tsr]

This felt like an intense operation. Haven't seen anything like it before. Must have been 6 or 7 RPIs and 8 police / PCSOs. Knife arches and drug sniffer dogs too.

Happens fairly often in south London and the south east. Usually follows multiple confirmed reports of passengers taking the proverbial. The stats are comparable to other similar areas of the south London rail network.

Would it be much different in terms of % of passengers at Erith, Belvedere, Woolwich Dockyard, Charlton, Deptford etc?

In my (occasional) experience, the passengers do seem particularly uncooperative at Plumstead, but that’s mainly down to my observations of antisocial behaviour, rather than fare evasion, per se.

 

[Horizon22]

Would it be much different in terms of % of passengers at Erith, Belvedere, Woolwich Dockyard, Charlton, Deptford etc?

As tsr says, it does seem very high, coupled with anti-social behaviour. These people aren't necessary likely to be fare-payers either.

 

[lancastria]

The figures from Plumstead, 123 dodgers caught with anecdotal evidence that there were more who were caught and released and more who chose to stay on the train despite not having a ticket, are shocking.
It seems clear to me that fare dodgers from this station have become accustomed to defrauding the railway, and that it is a well-known ruse.
You can imagine that this situation is played out at other stations similar to Plumstead, where there are no manned barriers.
It's conceivable that with this scale of fare dodging replicated across the network, it could be more than the 2.5% TOC target mentioned earlier in the string.
If this evidence acquired by SE at Plumstead does reflect the situation in other places, then SE would stand to make money by installing barriers and manning them at those stations where possible?
Although, from memory Plumstead is not a straightforward station for installation of barrier gates, having two entrances and a small concourse where barrier gates would create quite a crowd. In this respect, Plumstead is like Charlton.

 

[Antman]

Plumstead is probably one of the worst places for fare evasion on the entire SE metro network.

It's likely a lot of people from Thamesmead make their bus/rail connection at Plumstead rather than Woolwich Arsenal where there are ticket gates and it does seem an obvious place for ticket checks.

 

[lancastria]

It's likely a lot of people from Thamesmead make their bus/rail connection at Plumstead rather than Woolwich Arsenal where there are ticket gates and it does seem an obvious place for ticket checks.

Have you looked at a map?
The reason why Thamesmead people use Plumstead instead of Woolwich Arsenal has nothing to do with the barriers at Woolwich. It's because Plumstead is more than a mile closer to Thamesmead.