Southeastern revenue staff making an appearance

[Antman]

It's approximately 100 metres, past a block of shops. I guess it maybe doesn't hold up to the bucolic beauty of central Woolwich, but I'd confidently expect that it's no issue whatsoever to an overwhelming majority of people.

Does anybody other than you and lancastria really care?

 

[lancastria]

I think you're rather over-reacting. It's pretty well established that there is a link between poverty and crime levels. For example



You can argue about which way the causation goes and what the reasons are (though, preferably, in a different thread) but I don't think you can dispute that poorer areas tend to see more crime in general - from which you can surmise that implies likely greater incidence of fare evasion. None of that implies that poor people (the vast majority of whom are likely to be honest) have any lesser right to be on a train.

The original poster claimed

People from poorer backgrounds who need to travel are likely to evade a fare, especially if they know they can get away with it from an ungated station. As stated upthread, the most poor and the most rich are most likely to dodge their fares - obviously for differing reasons

I don't see any evidence from him linking fare evasion to poverty.

the link you provides is very interesting and sparked a lot of thought for me. Thank you.
First, the LM press release is about violent crime, and the issue here is not violent crime but fare evasion (it would, I think be similar to the difference between theft and robbery).
Second, you need to prove there is a link between fare evasion and poverty and then also to prove that Thamesmead is an area of poverty.
My prejudice tells me you are right, there is a link between fare evasion and poverty. But it's just my opinion, and I think your opinion and mine would have much more weight if there was evidence to support them.
I have to go out now, sorry not to be able to write down all my thoughts on this. I'll return later.

 

[Horizon22]

This argument about geography is getting a bit tiresome. A map tells you all you need to know - nobody I know bypasses a closer station with regularity unless it:
a) has a faster service (no real difference for Plumstead / Woolwich Arsenal) or
b) is cheaper (they're both in Zone 4 - plus you're more likely to have a closed gate to encounter on your longer journey).

On another note I am aware Southeastern issues "over a thousand" penalty fares weekly, so there's clearly lots of activity across the routes

 

[lancastria]

Does anybody other than you and lancastria really care?

Now that the map issue has been resolved, we can get back to the business of the thread.
I'm very sceptical about qualitative experience as a way of understanding the fare dodging problem, but this thread has taught me a thing or two about the issue and the problems SE faces, and the choices it has made, in tackling this kind of crime.
I was talking with a long-time commuter who uses Cannon St, and she confirmed one of my experiences; fare dodgers using the gate line at rush hour who don't rush through the gates, but wait for the person behind to swipe their oyster card thus letting the dodger through without paying.
Is this a thing? Anybody else know anything about this?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Now that the map issue has been resolved, we can get back to the business of the thread.
I'm very sceptical about qualitative experience as a way of understanding the fare dodging problem, but this thread has taught me a thing or two about the issue and the problems SE faces, and the choices it has made, in tackling this kind of crime.
I was talking with a long-time commuter who uses Cannon St, and she confirmed one of my experiences; fare dodgers using the gate line at rush hour who don't rush through the gates, but wait for the person behind to swipe their oyster card thus letting the dodger through without paying.
Is this a thing? Anybody else know anything about this?

"Double Gating" - yes - happens all over. Had a "suit" follow me through at Blackfriars one morning - he got an absolute rocket in exchange and I told him that I was going to get the CCTV downloaded and to follow it up. I did not of course , being non GTR staff at that time - but he hopefully worried a bit. He was not exactly a poor looking commuter.

Always go through fairly slowly to avoid this.

 

[Horizon22]

Now that the map issue has been resolved, we can get back to the business of the thread.
I'm very sceptical about qualitative experience as a way of understanding the fare dodging problem, but this thread has taught me a thing or two about the issue and the problems SE faces, and the choices it has made, in tackling this kind of crime.
I was talking with a long-time commuter who uses Cannon St, and she confirmed one of my experiences; fare dodgers using the gate line at rush hour who don't rush through the gates, but wait for the person behind to swipe their oyster card thus letting the dodger through without paying.
Is this a thing? Anybody else know anything about this?

Yep "doubling up" is what most station staff would call it. I wouldn't say its rife, but its certainly not irregular either. Nor is it restricted to just a particular type of commuter and nor is it unique to SE.

 

[hwl]

"Double Gating" - yes - happens all over. Had a "suit" follow me through at Blackfriars one morning - he got an absolute rocket in exchange and I told him that I was going to get the CCTV downloaded and to follow it up. I did not of course , being non GTR staff at that time - but he hopefully worried a bit. He was not exactly a poor looking commuter.

Always go through fairly slowly to avoid this.

A short pause when you are clear of the moving bits so they close on the follower is a useful tactic

 

[Bensonby]

I was speaking to some police officers that do gateline ops semi-regularly (looking for police officers abusing their subsidised travel as it happens) and they often work in consultation with the TOCs. They told me that the gateline staff regularly see people “double gating” but are not empowered to challenge them.

It therefore seems a bit pointless having them manning the gates to be honest. I’m not having a pop at them: they are limited by their training, insurance, equipment, and instructions. Obviously the TOCs don’t think the risk/investment v revenue loss is worth it. I suppose the presence of gates discourage large numbers of potential “casual” fare evaders.

 

[lancastria]

I was speaking to some police officers that do gateline ops semi-regularly (looking for police officers abusing their subsidised travel as it happens) and they often work in consultation with the TOCs. They told me that the gateline staff regularly see people “double gating” but are not empowered to challenge them.

It therefore seems a bit pointless having them manning the gates to be honest. I’m not having a pop at them: they are limited by their training, insurance, equipment, and instructions. Obviously the TOCs don’t think the risk/investment v revenue loss is worth it. I suppose the presence of gates discourage large numbers of potential “casual” fare evaders.

Not empowered to tackle double-gaters - that's damning, isn't it? I can see how they would want to avoid gateline staff getting into physical trouble. So those staff seem to be there to cover SE for claims that travellers were injured in the gates or could not exit the station, even though they had a ticket, and to underline the fact that you need a valid ticket.

 

[Geogregor]

Not empowered to tackle double-gaters - that's damning, isn't it?

Vast majority of railways staff, not only at the SE, is not allowed to get physical with anyone. The exception are the REOs. It isn't going to change unless you provide railway employees with training (and powers) similar with police. There is no appetite for it. Not among the employees themselves nor among anyone else.

I can see how they would want to avoid gateline staff getting into physical trouble. So those staff seem to be there to cover SE for claims that travellers were injured in the gates or could not exit the station, even though they had a ticket, and to underline the fact that you need a valid ticket.

Staff is manning the gates in case someone gets into difficulty with the gates, for example gets stuck etc.

On the wider issue of the fare evasion. One has to keep it in the perspective. What share of the journeys (or revenue) are we talking about? 1%, 3%, 5%, 10%, 20%, 50% ? Does anyone know?

Only once we know we can talk about sensible and proportionate action. In some countries there are no gates on public transport (Copenhagen metro comes to mind) and systems function relying on random checks and penalties (probably higher than the silly £20 here). I know Scandinavian societies are different than British one but seriously, are we that much more dishonest?

 

[lancastria]

On the wider issue of the fare evasion. One has to keep it in the perspective. What share of the journeys (or revenue) are we talking about? 1%, 3%, 5%, 10%, 20%, 50% ? Does anyone know?

Only once we know we can talk about sensible and proportionate action. In some countries there are no gates on public transport (Copenhagen metro comes to mind) and systems function relying on random checks and penalties (probably higher than the silly £20 here). I know Scandinavian societies are different than British one but seriously, are we that much more dishonest?

It was mentioned earlier in the string that Southeastern had a target of 2.5% unpaid fares. But there was no source or date for this target.
And by it's nature, fare dodging is impossible to accurately measure.

I'm making a big assumption when I say I believe SE does know the extent of fare dodging, and finds it unnecessary to chase the revenue, for whatever reason.
This could be a variety of things; SE franchise has a short time to run; it would cost more to chase the revenue than it would bring in; it's impossible to have a totally secure network.
And if any of those are the case, then SE's response would be what it is at the moment, concentrate on raking in the vast majority of fares from its commuter services.

 

[ComUtoR]

It was mentioned earlier in the string that Southeastern had a target of 2.5% unpaid fares. But there was no source or date for this target.

If your talking about my post; I took it directly from the franchise agreement. I also know that SE (current franchise) were specifically directed to reduce fare evasion. They were instructed to take specific steps to reduce fare evasion and at one point their were almost in breach.

And by it's nature, fare dodging is impossible to accurately measure.

I can't remember how its estimated but there is a formula and methodology out there; I just can't remember where :/ I did look at other TOCs and they had figures and estimates for fare evasion as part of their franchise agreements was to post that information publicly but I couldn't find anything specific to SE.

Ticketing is evolving and I have certainly heard and witnessed more and more people tapping out than ever before. However, I still see many many people who have seasons who never tap out and never stick their ticket through the barriers. I can't remember the last time I put a ticket through the gate. I'm sure there are people who think I don't have a ticket, especially as I tend to cruise through the gates or just walk through the push through gate.

I'm making a big assumption when I say I believe SE does know the extent of fare dodging

There is no assumption. They know.

 

[Horizon22]

I can't remember how its estimated but there is a formula and methodology out there; I just can't remember where :/ I did look at other TOCs and they had figures and estimates for fare evasion as part of their franchise agreements was to post that information publicly but I couldn't find anything specific to SE.

The DfT ticketless travel surveys? Where they literally hop on trains and coach by coach go through to check how many have tickets and if there is an on-board revenue staff prevent them from undertaking those duties for a short time whilst they undertake the survey.

 

[lancastria]

If your talking about my post; I took it directly from the franchise agreement. I also know that SE (current franchise) were specifically directed to reduce fare evasion. They were instructed to take specific steps to reduce fare evasion and at one point their were almost in breach.



I can't remember how its estimated but there is a formula and methodology out there; I just can't remember where :/ I did look at other TOCs and they had figures and estimates for fare evasion as part of their franchise agreements was to post that information publicly but I couldn't find anything specific to SE.

Ticketing is evolving and I have certainly heard and witnessed more and more people tapping out than ever before. However, I still see many many people who have seasons who never tap out and never stick their ticket through the barriers. I can't remember the last time I put a ticket through the gate. I'm sure there are people who think I don't have a ticket, especially as I tend to cruise through the gates or just walk through the push through gate.



There is no assumption. They know.

This is all very interesting!
If fare dodging is at 2.5% (of passengers or revenue? But doesn't really matter) then it is a very small problem.
SE carried 183.2m passengers in 2018/19 FY, so 2.5% gives 4.5m fare-dodging journeys, which sounds a lot.
Make another big assumption of £6 lost for each of these journeys, and the lost income becomes £27 million. Worth chasing? SE doesn't think so!

 

[ComUtoR]

This thread startd out because there was a belief that SE don't care or don't check for fare evasion.

Yet, others clearly then stated that SE carry out regular blocks and onboard checks. They have both REOs and Revenue Officers that patrol services and they also have an agreement with GTR to patrol theirs too, along the North Kent. If you look in the disputes section you read about people getting caught and prosecuted. of that 27mil, how much is gained back in penalty fares and fines ? A £20 is three times a £6 evasion.

I really don't believe anyone can say that they don't care.

Fare evasion will happen, you just need to do what you can to tackle it and reduce it. It's a cost that is factored in to any buisness model.

Can they do better ? Of course and they should be incentivised to do so. Most likely why it was included in the franchise spec.

@Horizon. I know they take those surveys and I know SE do their own and also crunch the data from internal sources. I still couldnt find the official numbers

 

[hwl]

This is all very interesting!
If fare dodging is at 2.5% (of passengers or revenue? But doesn't really matter) then it is a very small problem.
SE carried 183.2m passengers in 2018/19 FY, so 2.5% gives 4.5m fare-dodging journeys, which sounds a lot.
Make another big assumption of £6 lost for each of these journeys, and the lost income becomes £27 million. Worth chasing? SE doesn't think so!

The core problem is that as part of the original franchise contract DfT would get the additional revenue but SE would pay for the additional enforcement, hence not much incentive...

 

[Horizon22]

@Horizon. I know they take those surveys and I know SE do their own and also crunch the data from internal sources. I still couldnt find the official numbers

Is it something even published and publicly available; I didn't believe it was.

 

[ComUtoR]

https://assets.publishing.service.g...swf-ticketless-travel-survey-final-report.pdf

Link is for Southwesterns Ticketless travel survey results for 2016

You can also access Scotrail, Northern, TSGN, Transpennine, South Central for various years (2008-2017)

 

[philthetube]

Much to my surprise there was an onboard ticket inspection on my Sidcup line train this afternoon (the 15.48 LCX to Dartford service). Perhaps Southeastern revenue protection bosses read this this thread ?

How many people were being found out?

I don't need to look at a map I know the area well enough and Woolwich Arsenal would generally be a more convenient for bus/train interchange for a number of reasons.

I look forward to your next fascinating post.

Really guys, part of this thread concerns antisocial behaviour and you talk to each other like that.

Viewing a map shows that Thamesmead people use, Is a much nicer way to put that and words rail me on " I look forward to your next fascinating post.

First comment not an unreasonable statement though could have been phrased better and second totally uncalled for.

I wish people could manage to speak to each other on a forum in the same way as they would face to face, I imagine you are both nice to meet in real life.

 

[transmanche]

If fare dodging is at 2.5% (of passengers or revenue?[...]

This FoI request to TfL from 2011 defines the 'evasion rate' as:

The evasion rate equates to the estimated % of passengers travelling without a valid ticket for their journey.

Interestingly, the figures in the document show that the evasion rate on London Overground in 2007 (when TfL took over control of the Silverlink Metro routes) was 9.6%, By 2009, LOROL had reduced this to 1.3%.

 

[Horizon22]

Passed through Rochester at the weekend and saw what appeared to be a fairly sizable collection of revenue & enforcement staff.

 

[superkopite]

In the last 3 or 4 weeks, I have seen loads of inspections at the Chatham gateline, always backed up by BTP. Sometimes even quite late into the night. I have seen them as late as 9pm. In the minute or so it takes me to get through the crowd/gateline, they always manage to nab a couple of people. Looks like the checks are working.

Makes me feel better, as a season ticket holder, that others are not riding for free.