Southeastern stock options for next operator

Discussion in 'Traction & Rolling Stock' started by D365, 23 May 2018.

  1. D365

    D365 Established Member

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    I was under the impression that the plan was to move to a tweve car metro fleet. This would imply wholescale replacement of the Class 465/466 and 376 fleets.
     
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  3. Bromley boy

    Bromley boy Established Member

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    An all 12 car fleet seems highly unlikely as many metro platforms are 8 car, and would be OTT off peak. Some kind of 700 style option with 8/12 car variants is surely more likely, along with the 376s retained.
     
  4. 59CosG95

    59CosG95 Established Member

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    A 12-car metro fleet is certainly Govia's plan in the incumbent franchise; I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if Stagecoach/Alstom's bid doesn't include 458/5s replacing the 465/9s on the "long-distance Networker" diagrams, with (I assume) 1st Class being reinstated.
    34 4-car units being replaced by 36 5-car units would give a net increase of 44 vehicles to SE's outer-suburban fleet.

    Meanwhile, the 707s have also been touted for SE; assuming they replace the 465/2s (16 4-car units) along with 8 466s (2-car units), 16/30 of the 707s can be drafted in, like-for-like. (N.B. the 707s could be used for Southern to replace the 455/8s, but that's for another thread.) If of course SE do go for 707s, I wouldn't be surprised if Siemens builds 30 more individual coaches (not sure if they'd be powered or not) to make the 707s all 6-car.
     
  5. robert7111a

    robert7111a Established Member

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    Why not build more 707s which would work well for the 10-car scheme on the SE metro as a wholesale replacement for the Networkers and 376's?
     
  6. Roast Veg

    Roast Veg Member

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    The 458s seem almost guaranteed for SE, I can't see them not being offered at a highly competitive leasing cost. Many outer suburban 465 services are run with a 466 already to bring them up to 10 car, such as the Tunbridge Wells terminators.
     
  7. Mollman

    Mollman Member

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    So it seems that the 376s will become yet another mid-life electric fleet to have no future.
     
  8. Agent_Squash

    Agent_Squash Member

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    Send them to Northern for commuter services, I'm sure they'd be welcomed :D
     
  9. rebmcr

    rebmcr Established Member

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    When was the last franchise spec that didn't require brand-new rolling stock?

    The DfT seem deathly afraid of anything that could give the press an excuse to use the phrase "cast-offs".
     
  10. Class465fan

    Class465fan Member

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    Seriously? More new trains? Why? The current trains we have works perfectly alright, just need a clean up in the interior (especially the networkers).
     
  11. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    SWR’s ITT didn’t explicitly ask for new stock. Yes, there were hints about certain stock’s poor dwell times, but nothing approaching ‘you must do this’...
     
  12. Domh245

    Domh245 Established Member

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    The ITTs generally aren't requiring new stock, but the TOCs appear to have cottoned on to the fact that the DfT scores new trains very highly when it comes to assigning the "quality" of the bid, and so bidding on that basis makes it more likely that they'll win.
     
  13. LunchSociety

    LunchSociety Member

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    I would assume that the Electrostars will remain and the Metro fleet will be replaced, probably with Aventras for some commonality with the rest of the fleet. That being said, it wouldn't be outside of the realms of possibility for a Hitachi product to be selected - there would be some commonality with the 395s and you would think the price may be competitive in the wake of the ongoing 385 debacle.
     
  14. hwl

    hwl Established Member

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    The ITT thinks otherwise...
     
  15. 59CosG95

    59CosG95 Established Member

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    Someone I know used to work for NSE when they were first being introduced - headaches throughout the Fleet Department for Kent, especially the Brush-motored varieties. He said that they certainly earned their "Notworker" moniker!
     
  16. DVD

    DVD Member

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    Southeastern's Networkers have been consistently near the bottom of the EMU reliability tables ever since their introduction twenty five years sgo. Cancellations due to train faults are common. Half the stock has no air conditioning. The seats sre very comfortable but 2 + 3 seating is not suitable for peak operation. The doors are too narrow and standing capacity is poor compared to more modern stock. I have a soft spot for them but they have to go.
     
  17. hwl

    hwl Established Member

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    Completely agree, I'd add lack of SDO too - where is the "like" button on the forum!

    Some of the other second hand stock being proposed above also has issues and isn't tender requirement compliant.
     
  18. robert7111a

    robert7111a Established Member

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    Disband the (awful) 376's) and use the non-driving carriages to augment the 378's to 8-car for the NLL (platform lengths permitting...)
     
  19. Mikey C

    Mikey C Established Member

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    None of them have air conditioning! Of more regret is that the 376s don't have air conditioning, the only Electrostars and indeed the only post privatisation stock without it (other than the PPMs)

    If the 458s and 707s were considered sub-optimal for SWR, I don't see why they would be any better for SE, especially when it doesn't operate any Siemens or Alstom stock. What gets tricky is that the SE has a mixture of platform lengths, 8, 10 and 12. That makes buying a fixed length train rather inflexible, ditto multiples of 4, 5 and 6.
     
  20. hwl

    hwl Established Member

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    The SE ITT is even more strongly worded than the SW as regards things that make the 458s and 707s un-biddable without a rebuild.

    There are some interesting hints in the ITT about running some of the 8 car (i.e. ex LCDR heritage routes) as 10 car with SDO (many non-Catford Loop 8 car platforms are already actually 9cars long and some could easily be extended.

    By 10 car to you mean Woolwich Dockyard? which is actually 11 cars long so could easily be sorted with a working SDO system for 12 car trains. In which case the via LBG train could all be 12 car with SDO preferably with walk thorough carriages to help solve the CHX platform issues too.
     
  21. Andy25

    Andy25 Member

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    Why would Alstom risk investment in the franchise if it wasn't to sell new trains.

    A few spares sales on 458/5 isn't worth it and if not used on SE somewhere else would likely take them anyway to require spares.
     
  22. Kite159

    Kite159 Veteran Member

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    Wasn't the 334s delivered without Air conditioning at first (only for it to be currently getting fitted to the fleet)?

    -----

    See if AC & SDO can be fitted to the 376s to make them more flexible for the inner suburban work.

    458/5s for the outer suburban work currently undertaken by 465/9s.

    Build an extra motor coach with toilet for the 707s to turn then into 6-coach units, then they will be more useful for the 12-coach network. Maybe some fixed formation 8-coach 707/1s for the Victoria - Orpington stoppers

    Although in real life, it will probably be yet more Aventras :(
     
  23. Roast Veg

    Roast Veg Member

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    Which of the Networkers are not yet PRM-TSI ready?
     
  24. urpert

    urpert Member

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    Lots. They seem to have paused the installation of accessible bogs even on the ones that have had the other mods done.

    Incidentally it is very much a ‘bare minimum for compliance’ job suggesting the ROSCOS don’t see much future for them either. Here’s hoping!
     
  25. whhistle

    whhistle On Moderation

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    Like new cars and new phones, the life cycle of things is becoming very short.
    If it's not brand new, it's no good.

    Isn't it next to no cost for the operator too?
    As in, they don't buy the trains and while leasing costs may be higher, I'd be interested to know how that works/what the difference is. Surely newer vehicles score better in reliability and economy? Thinking how recent cars are free/very little tax because emissions and all that.
     
    Last edited: 28 May 2018
  26. southern442

    southern442 Established Member

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    I hate to moan, but it seems absolutely ridiculous that on this forum we are seriously suggesting replacing trains that aren't even 15 years old whereas on some parts of the network trains of 40+ years of age are doing absolutely fine, and in other places electrification projects are being cancelled meaning they are stuck with dirty old DMU's. This mentality of ordering new stock every time a new franchisee takes over is utterly ridiculous (some European countries still run stock from the 60's with no problem) , not to mention an absolute waste of decent trains and rather harmful to the railway in terms of spending. I'm sure many people who come from areas where infrastructure upgrades are badly needed would love to hear why money isn't being spent on them, but instead on replacing still-fairly-young trains!
     
  27. Taylor Perry

    Taylor Perry Member

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    I agree with southern442, we shouldn't have to replace things that young
     
  28. NSE

    NSE Established Member

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    I do see both sides of the argument. But I agree too. I use 455/707/458/456's daily and I have my preferences, but only as a rail enthusiast. As a commuter, I couldn't care less, providing it turns up on time. After a day at work I flop down on to a 455 just as happily as a 707. I don't see why the Networkers should go.
     
  29. D365

    D365 Established Member

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    There’s a lot more to a train than what exists above the solebar.
     
  30. urpert

    urpert Member

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    Networkers are neither decent nor fairly young, though.
     
  31. Class465fan

    Class465fan Member

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    More decent and quicker than the 3rd rail mk3 EMUs (Excluding the 442s).
     

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