Southeastern to OLR: what could happen next?

[KashmireHawker]

Press Release by Government, takes effect 17th October

Government takes over running of LSER services in response to over £25 million breach of franchise agreement

Decision will have no impact on passengers or the frontline staff of LSER.

www.gov.uk

In that case, the Government had no other alternative and good on Mr Shapps for acting as bluntly.

BUT, I am sure everyone will be asking HOW did it reach this point in the first place?

Could all of this also mean the handover of Metro services to TFL as long mooted for?

This will be interesting to see how this plays out.

 

[Class800]

It may be better to have one Operator of Last Resort rather than separate ones for each franchise (in England) - this would have enabled the move to be done much faster. But I agree it's better than waiting longer than 3 weeks. Regarding transfer of Metro to TFL, I doubt this will facilitate it, given the known political stand-off between the Conservative-run Department for Transport and the Labour-run Mayor's Office and TFL

 

[Robertj21a]

In that case, the Government had no other alternative and good on Mr Shapps for acting as bluntly.

BUT, I am sure everyone will be asking HOW did it reach this point in the first place?

Could all of this also mean the handover of Metro services to TFL as long mooted for?

This will be interesting to see how this plays out.

Why, what have the Metro services been up to?

 

[Class800]

TFL has for a long time wanted to take over Metro rail services in London. But TFL has said no

 

[43102EMR]

TFL has for a long time wanted to take over Metro rail services in London. But TFL has said no

You mean the DfT said no…

 

[Class800]

Yes sorry DFT said no to TFL plans - clearly a political stand off

 

[JonathanH]

Yes sorry DFT said no to TFL plans - clearly a political stand off

...and a practical one. Trying to run terminals as tight as Cannon Street and Charing Cross with competing priorities of two operators is completely against recent policy. TfL would be very limited in what it could improve with the need for the residual mainline railway to continue to operate longer distance services.

 

[Starmill]

That is a bit of a surprise!

Government to take over Southeastern after ‘serious’ breach of franchise

Department for Transport finds rail operator did not declare more than £25m of historic taxpayer funding

Government to take over Southeastern after ‘serious’ breach of franchise

Department for Transport finds rail operator did not declare more than £25m of historical taxpayer funding

www.theguardian.com

 

[Snow1964]

It seems Go Ahead Group have postponed their Annual Results which were due to be published on Thursday

Go Ahead Group also saying that Elodie Brian, the Chief Financial Officer has left the Company.

It appears Investigations into historical transactions are ongoing, so not a good day for integrity of the Parent, and I wonder if this means looking into other GoAhead Franchises for similar irregularities

 

[brad465]

What are the chances a Metro fleet overhaul will follow now? There was certainly no chance of that happening with the numerous short term contract extensions, and I wouldn't call the 707 move a "major overhaul".

 

[skyhigh]

It may be better to have one Operator of Last Resort rather than separate ones for each franchise (in England) - this would have enabled the move to be done much faster.

Would it? 3 weeks to get all the contracts etc changed over is already a big task - I'd be surprised if it could be done faster.

 

[Kite159]

What are the chances a Metro fleet overhaul will follow now? There was certainly no chance of that happening with the numerous short term contract extensions, and I wouldn't call the 707 move a "major overhaul".

Less than 1% most likely.

Probably more single units out on the metro to 'save money' from the new operator

 

[urpert]

Less than 1% most likely.

Probably more single units out on the metro to 'save money' from the new operator

We might get another set of stickers though.
They could call it something like "Network SouthEast".

 

[Turtle]

We might get another set of stickers though.
They could call it something like "Network SouthEast".

 

[stratford]

Class 707s facing another rebranding whilst they are being introduced. Cursed to always be in the wrong colours.

 

[Kite159]

We might get another set of stickers though.
They could call it something like "Network SouthEast".

Nah, it will be rebranded as "SOUTHEASTERN" with new stickers everywhere

 

[Class 466]

I really hope “investing in passenger improvements on the existing fleet of trains” actually means something tangible.

 

[Kite159]

I really hope “investing in passenger improvements on the existing fleet of trains” actually means something tangible.

Probably will rehash the press release of the improvements to the 375s (USB sockets etc) as being the improvements being made to the existing fleet.

 

[backontrack]

The phrase 'south eastern' has been used continuously by operators on the franchise since privatisation. Even Connex ran as Connex South Eastern, then it was the OLR running as South Eastern Trains, then Govia's Southeastern...

The way we've seen the Integrated Kent franchise being referred to as LSER - and this government's penchant for nostalgic renaming of rail services among these tawdry lines - I think we might end up seeing 'southeastern' disappear into the middle of that acronym, with the phrase dropping out of conventional usage.

 

[Mikey C]

On the basis of recent history, not very much

The phrase 'south eastern' has been used continuously by operators on the franchise since privatisation. Even Connex ran as Connex South Eastern, then it was the OLR running as South Eastern Trains, then Govia's Southeastern...

The way we've seen the Integrated Kent franchise being referred to as LSER - and this government's penchant for nostalgic renaming of rail services among these tawdry lines - I think we might end up seeing 'southeastern' disappear into the middle of that acronym, with the phrase dropping out of conventional usage.

But then the 2 main companies in Kent were the South Eastern Railway, and the London, Chatham and Dover Railway, and the "merged" branding was South Eastern and Chatham Railways, so Southeastern/South Eastern still works historically.

 

[swt_passenger]

The phrase 'south eastern' has been used continuously by operators on the franchise since privatisation. Even Connex ran as Connex South Eastern, then it was the OLR running as South Eastern Trains, then Govia's Southeastern...

The way we've seen the Integrated Kent franchise being referred to as LSER - and this government's penchant for nostalgic renaming of rail services among these tawdry lines - I think we might end up seeing 'southeastern' disappear into the middle of that acronym, with the phrase dropping out of conventional usage.

Not at all unusual, this is 3 separate things.
Integrated Kent Franchise is simply the DfT’s name for the franchise area, used in invitations to tender, franchise specs etc.
London and Southeastern Railway Ltd (LSER) is the registered or legal name of the current franchisee. It is not the government renaming anything at all.
Southeastern is the public facing or trading name of the franchisee.

 

[mmh]

The way we've seen the Integrated Kent franchise being referred to as LSER - and this government's penchant for nostalgic renaming of rail services among these tawdry lines - I think we might end up seeing 'southeastern' disappear into the middle of that acronym, with the phrase dropping out of conventional usage.

Hyperbole, I'm afraid. It's the legal name and has been for a long time. The only "nostalgic name" the Government has introduced is LNER. London and Continental anyone? Hardly constitutes a "penchant."

 

[Class 466]

Not at all unusual, this is 3 separate things.
Integrated Kent Franchise is simply the DfT’s name for the franchise area, used in invitations to tender, franchise specs etc.
London and Southeastern Railway Ltd (LSER) is the registered or legal name of the current franchisee. It is not the government renaming anything at all.
Southeastern is the public facing or trading name of the franchisee.

As of 2017, they wanted to rename the franchise back to the “South Eastern Franchise” rather than “Integrated Kent Franchise”. However as no winner was awarded, it has stayed as the IKF until now.

 

[swt_passenger]

As of 2017, they wanted to rename the franchise back to the “South Eastern Franchise” rather than “Integrated Kent Franchise”. However as no winner was awarded, it has stayed as the IKF until now.

Yes, I always thought the IKF stuff was a bit unnecessary in the long term, AIUI it was only invented to cover the addition of HS2 domestic services, and that’s taken for granted as part of the franchise area by now…

 

[SynthD]

Along with the DfT’s move to concessions, has there been any defrosting of their relationship with TfL?
Have DfT shown any interest in the max performance idea of detangling lines by changing which country end matches which London end?
I’m wondering if it would suit the governments new the-one-way-to-solve-problems mindset to give TfL one terminus, say Cannon Street, and send all the short distance trains there.

 

[Class800]

Maybe but DFT and TFL just don't seem to get on, probably it being a party political battle. Seen that over transferring Metro lines to TFL, over masks, etc etc.

 

[Mikey C]

The Southeastern and Southwestern franchise names though are quite "Southern Region centric" names really, seeing that the regions Southwest and Southeast are MUCH larger

Regions of England - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Before privatisation, when Network Southeast was split up in smaller areas, Kent services were labelled Kent Link for the inners, and Kent Coast

 

[30907]

On the basis of recent history, not very much

But then the 2 main companies in Kent were the South Eastern Railway, and the London, Chatham and Dover Railway, and the "merged" branding was South Eastern and Chatham Railways, so Southeastern/South Eastern still works historically.

More to the point, South Eastern was in pretty much constant use from 1960 under BR, and before that it was Eastern under the SR. So a very recognisable name.

 

[Trackman]

Nah, it will be rebranded as "SOUTHEASTERN" with new stickers everywhere

That's my thinking too, a bit like what happened to Northern.
I'll have to get a new 'sticker' too

What are the chances a Metro fleet overhaul will follow now? There was certainly no chance of that happening with the numerous short term contract extensions, and I wouldn't call the 707 move a "major overhaul".

Well I'd like to see it, but I'm not holding my breath. Let's see what happens.

 

[NorthKent1989]

I think any hopes of transferring the SE metro to TfL are still a long way off.

It’ll either happen under a Labour Mayor/Labour Government or a Tory Mayor/Tory Government, right now there doesn’t seem to be any chance of London going Tory or the rest of the country going Labour.

Also the SE Metro network is still complex, more complex than other metro routes, will all metro routes go to Cannon Street or will there be a split between Cannon Street and Charing Cross? And what about the Victoria to Gravesend route? That’s an oddity whether it’s routed via Woolwich, Bexleyheath or Sidcup and most metro routes appear to have Dartford as the end point, yet some metro services run beyond Dartford to Gravesend, the only thorn was the Gillingham service which was neither metro nor mainline but more like the Aylesbury via Harrow line, but that service is now a Thameslink service