Southern brand to disappear?

[tsr]

They may well have been floating around for a while in web forums, but there's absolutely no evidence in the relevant franchise specs or RUSs...

No, there isn't - you are quite right (to my knowledge, at least). I am just saying that they have been mentioned before, so it might be interesting for them to have serious consideration here and by those drawing up the specs, as they may be good ideas for TOCs to implement. Whether or not they will actually be considered officially is a different matter!

 

[Class377/5]

That could work well - it would be very similar to how SWT have three main versions of their livery - even though it won't be until the 458/460 conversion completes that they'll be properly in the blue outer suburban colour.

Seems a very natural fit colour wise.

As for names of the new franchise, well offical the franchise will be known as Thameslink. If you have south name don't forget how far north it goes. Best simple name would be the Thameslink Network.

 

[tbtc]

Seems a very natural fit colour wise.

As for names of the new franchise, well offical the franchise will be known as Thameslink. If you have south name don't forget how far north it goes. Best simple name would be the Thameslink Network.

If you have a Thameslink name, don't forget how many of the services don't cross the river...

 

[Class377/5]

If you have a Thameslink name, don't forget how many of the services don't cross the river...

True but seeing as its the Thameslink franchise it would make sense to have the name in somewhere. However doesn't meant you can't keep the brands under a general title.

 

[Bald Rick]

The Franchise is known as the Thameslink franchise, in the same way that Virgin is officially known as the Intercity West Coast franchise. What it is actually known as to punters is entirely up to the winner.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The Franchise is known as the Thameslink franchise.

Of course, this is to show the importance of London to this franchise...:roll:

Everyone knows how subserviant peripheral areas are viewed when London is seen as the "real area" in the equation.

 

[HSTEd]

What makes you say that? There's been nothing concrete stating that in fact until the DfT states otherwise, these services are staying with Greater Thameslink.

I meant "Thameslink" as actually going through Thameslink, not operated by Thameslink.

Sorry for not making that clear.

 

[Bald Rick]

Of course, this is to show the importance of London to this franchise...:roll:

Everyone knows how subserviant peripheral areas are viewed when London is seen as the "real area" in the equation.

Well to be fair it will be a £1bn+ farebox franchise, and I guess 75%+ of that is going to/from London

 

[tbtc]

True but seeing as its the Thameslink franchise it would make sense to have the name in somewhere. However doesn't meant you can't keep the brands under a general title.

If it were up to me (which it clearly isn't!) then I'd try to keep "Thameslink" specifically for the core set of services through Farringdon.

Using "Thameslink" to describe the Moorgate services/ West Coastway etc will just confuse the brand.

And whilst Luton etc is north of London, it's still pretty "Southern" in UK terms

 

[DownSouth]

If it were up to me (which it clearly isn't!) then I'd try to keep "Thameslink" specifically for the core set of services through Farringdon.

Using "Thameslink" to describe the Moorgate services/ West Coastway etc will just confuse the brand.

And whilst Luton etc is north of London, it's still pretty "Southern" in UK terms

If you're going to play that game, you'll need to remember that the latitude of even Brighton is 50.8° North, it's very much a northern area in real terms. If SNCF, RENFE or MTR won the contract it would be quite a long way north of their headquarters as well.


Having a single operating company name with 3-4 different sub-brands with variations on a common livery for the different groups of routes could be good, as long as it is regulated and treated as a single company for ticketing purposes.

I wonder if there is merit in transferring the East Coastway routes to Southeastern (or their successors) and the West Coastway to SWT (or their successors) as routes which don't really fit the character of the Southern/Thameslink franchise and don't need dual-voltage units. It would also allow a bit of competition on the areas up to Portsmouth in the west and Eastbourne in the east where services to/from London Victoria overlap with Coastway services.

 

[Zoe]

Having a single operating company name with 3-4 different sub-brands with variations on a common livery for the different groups of routes could be good

National Express did this originally with the Greater Anglia franchise in 2004. The brands were one Anglia, one Great Eastern, one Stansted Express and one West Anglia. This didn't last long though as only the Stansted Express retained branding with the others changed to simply be known as "one".

First Great Western also originally planned to brand the former Wessex Trains services as First Great Western Local, the Intercity services as First Great Western Express with the Thames Valley services retaining the First Great Western Link brand. In the end though it was decided to go for just a single First Great Western brand.

 

[tbtc]

If you're going to play that game, you'll need to remember that the latitude of even Brighton is 50.8° North, it's very much a northern area in real terms. If SNCF, RENFE or MTR won the contract it would be quite a long way north of their headquarters as well..

True!

Having a single operating company name with 3-4 different sub-brands with variations on a common livery for the different groups of routes could be good, as long as it is regulated and treated as a single company for ticketing purposes.

I like the Stagecoach idea of different liveries that separate the brand, but still show a common theme for passengers.

Maybe something like the Nottingham buses livery, where the trains all have a common livery but a different colour at the end, so that you can identify your train when it arrives at the platform?

I wonder if there is merit in transferring the East Coastway routes to Southeastern (or their successors) and the West Coastway to SWT (or their successors) as routes which don't really fit the character of the Southern/Thameslink franchise and don't need dual-voltage units. It would also allow a bit of competition on the areas up to Portsmouth in the west and Eastbourne in the east where services to/from London Victoria overlap with Coastway services.

I think that may work on the west coastway, but the problem on the eastern side is the diesel section of the Marshlink line to Ashford - that'd leave a pretty small diesel fleet for Southeastern to run (unless it were wired, which I'd fully support).

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Maybe something like the Nottingham buses livery, where the trains all have a common livery but a different colour at the end, so that you can identify your train when it arrives at the platform?

Now then, that colour scheme idea indeed is something to consider, as many passengers automatically identify with a livery scheme when awaiting the arrival of their service, especially on stations where a number of different liveried services are there, such as Leeds or Manchester Piccadilly.

 

[ert47]

Now then, that colour scheme idea indeed is something to consider, as many passengers automatically identify with a livery scheme when awaiting the arrival of their service, especially on stations where a number of different liveried services are there, such as Leeds or Manchester Piccadilly.

Which would you prefer? Southern Green or First Blue/Purple/Pink?

I just hope that if Govia gets the franchise, they dont bring back their final Thameslink livery (silver/blue)

 

[Nym]

GoVia recently have been using nice simple and cheap liveries, unlike First's insane vinyl that is incredibly wasteful compared to tins of green and grey gloss...

 

[HSTEd]

I like the Southeastern HS livery a great deal more than the FCC or Southern livery....

Its a pity we can't have lots more Cl395s.

 

[Class377/5]

Now then, that colour scheme idea indeed is something to consider, as many passengers automatically identify with a livery scheme when awaiting the arrival of their service, especially on stations where a number of different liveried services are there, such as Leeds or Manchester Piccadilly.

Which would you prefer? Southern Green or First Blue/Purple/Pink?

I just hope that if Govia gets the franchise, they dont bring back their final Thameslink livery (silver/blue)

Southern should stay green. It's a long standing association. Thameslink and blue go well (well water is linked to blue). As for the GN, purple would be a good mix of colour, especially alongside the Thameslink trains.

GoVia recently have been using nice simple and cheap liveries, unlike First's insane vinyl that is incredibly wasteful compared to tins of green and grey gloss...

Think who ever wins will use vinyl. After all with such a short franchise is there even time to reprint the fleet? Let's be honest who ever wins should be too busy managing the rebuild of London Bridge, introducing a brand new fleet while trying to merge two separate companies into one to actually worry about what livery is on the fleet.

 

[Nym]

Vinyl badges over a base coat or whoever's livery was on it yes, but all over vinyl is just too much IMO.

(Kind of what Greater Anglia have done for temporary branding)

Long term I'd favour simple block colouring, no-one cares what their train looks like in the most part, I do like Chiltern's new look for the Mk.3s as a nice simple livery.

 

[Electrostar]

Whatever the eventual outcome I'd like to see the Thameslink name reinstated for any service which uses the core. The trains can have the same livery as the rest of the franchisee's fleet and the same logo but the Thameslink name should be incorporated on to route maps and announcements. I reason that with Crossrail and the success of the London Overground people in London may see the journey through the core as a real alternative to the tube. At Brighton for example you might be offered a choice of Southern services including Coastway, Thameslink and the (untitled) service to Victoria. Theres a uniformity between the brand, colours, staff but the acknowledgment of the route.

 

[Bald Rick]

There's a pretty good chance that the individual routes that go via the core will have some sort of route designation / branding for passenger info reasons to help keep station dwell times to 45 sec. Possibly route numbers, or possibly something like the S-Bahn. E.g. T1 for Bedford - Brighton, T4 for Luton - Sevenoaks etc

 

[Electrostar]

Wow! I hadn't heard of that. I assumed we'd see the usual destination displays and calling points. That would certainly be interesting considering London Overground and the DLR have resisted that method, and Tramlink now limits routes numbers to the cab-front destination display having dropped route numbers from maps. Obviously I'm aware those modes are all TfL controlled rather than National Rail.