Southern car park ticket fine

[WesternLancer]

I'd welcome any thoughts anyone may have on the following.

Just found out about from my father, incident was about 5 weeks ago.

so - synopsis:

My father is 80 ish and is carer for my mum who has dementia. So he has his hands full as anyone who knows people with dementia will understand I'm sure. Note: mental incapacity disabilities like dementia do not yet qualify you for blue badge parking permits. She has a Disabled Railcard (eligibility via her Attendance Allowance due to dementia)

• They took trip to London. My father bought train and car parking tickets from ticket office counter the day before.

• Correct car park ticket bought, with details of car registration number on ticket.

Basically I assume he then forgot (probably due to focus on getting mum out of the car, her confusion on surroundings, and their impending train departure time etc) to place ticket in windscreen.

Clearly no intention to avoid payment, but clearly did not 'display' the part of 'pay and display'. I think he later on realised this error but thought that because he'd given his car reg number it would be on the parking attendants database anyway and they would know he had paid. (I would never assume this of course but the world of tech is not always obvious to people 80+ years old, given some unimaginable joined up tech exists in other parts of our lives these days...he may not even have realised the enforcement was not done by the station staff 'who know me').

• Car ticketed during the day.
• He appealed on basis of having a ticket (image of ticket sent with appeal)

• They refused appeal (basis: ticket not displayed in car) of course they are correct on that - it wasn't.

• He paid £60 fine (as reply he got intimated if you took the appeal to next level you would then lose the prompt payment discount associated with the fine)

Having heard the story yesterday and looked at all the paperwork it's clear (to me) that the ticket should have been displayed in the car window, which my dad failed to do.

Anyone got any thoughts on whether any value in asking Southern's parking contractor to re-consider this (in the context of the disability or as good will gesture, not to say they were wrong to refuse Appeal I suspect)?

Juts wondered if any experience on here of this sort of issue or would I be wasting my time?

Thanks in advance.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I'd welcome any thoughts anyone may have on the following.

Just found out about from my father, incident was about 5 weeks ago.

so - synopsis:

My father is 80 ish and is carer for my mum who has dementia. So he has his hands full as anyone who knows people with dementia will understand I'm sure. Note: mental incapacity disabilities like dementia do not yet qualify you for blue badge parking permits. She has a Disabled Railcard (eligibility via her Attendance Allowance due to dementia)

• They took trip to London. My father bought train and car parking tickets from ticket office counter the day before.

• Correct car park ticket bought, with details of car registration number on ticket.

Basically I assume he then forgot (probably due to focus on getting mum out of the car, her confusion on surroundings, and their impending train departure time etc) to place ticket in windscreen.

Clearly no intention to avoid payment, but clearly did not 'display' the part of 'pay and display'. I think he later on realised this error but thought that because he'd given his car reg number it would be on the parking attendants database anyway and they would know he had paid. (I would never assume this of course but the world of tech is not always obvious to people 80+ years old, given some unimaginable joined up tech exists in other parts of our lives these days...he may not even have realised the enforcement was not done by the station staff 'who know me').

• Car ticketed during the day.
• He appealed on basis of having a ticket (image of ticket sent with appeal)

• They refused appeal (basis: ticket not displayed in car) of course they are correct on that - it wasn't.

• He paid £60 fine (as reply he got intimated if you took the appeal to next level you would then lose the prompt payment discount associated with the fine)

Having heard the story yesterday and looked at all the paperwork it's clear (to me) that the ticket should have been displayed in the car window, which my dad failed to do.

Anyone got any thoughts on whether any value in asking Southern's parking contractor to re-consider this (in the context of the disability or as good will gesture, not to say they were wrong to refuse Appeal I suspect)?

Juts wondered if any experience on here of this sort of issue or would I be wasting my time?

Thanks in advance.

There's no harm in asking but I suspect they will simply give you a fob-off response. It's a tricky situation when unknowledgeable or vulnerable relatives get into a pickle like this. If you knew how to fight it it would certainly be possible in the circumstances you've described. But with payment already made I suspect you're going to have to consider it a write-off.

 

[WesternLancer]

There's no harm in asking but I suspect they will simply give you a fob-off response. It's a tricky situation when unknowledgeable or vulnerable relatives get into a pickle like this. If you knew how to fight it it would certainly be possible in the circumstances you've described. But with payment already made I suspect you're going to have to consider it a write-off.

Thanks - I think that's the issue, not worth trying to challenge it through some sort of official channel now (and clearly not an option for my dad who has his hands full and at least tried the Appeal), but maybe I should just try and see what they reply with.

Interesting the categories of basis for Appeal included 'I had a ticket' which he did so he ticked that, but of course this just was rejected with a 'yes but you did not display it' response.

Would have really stuck in the throat for my mum who was for 30 years a BR(SR)/ NSE commuter from the same station, if she could any longer properly understand what happened.

 

[oz220]

I'd welcome any thoughts anyone may have on the following.

Just found out about from my father, incident was about 5 weeks ago.

so - synopsis:

My father is 80 ish and is carer for my mum who has dementia. So he has his hands full as anyone who knows people with dementia will understand I'm sure. Note: mental incapacity disabilities like dementia do not yet qualify you for blue badge parking permits. She has a Disabled Railcard (eligibility via her Attendance Allowance due to dementia)

• They took trip to London. My father bought train and car parking tickets from ticket office counter the day before.

• Correct car park ticket bought, with details of car registration number on ticket.

Basically I assume he then forgot (probably due to focus on getting mum out of the car, her confusion on surroundings, and their impending train departure time etc) to place ticket in windscreen.

Clearly no intention to avoid payment, but clearly did not 'display' the part of 'pay and display'. I think he later on realised this error but thought that because he'd given his car reg number it would be on the parking attendants database anyway and they would know he had paid. (I would never assume this of course but the world of tech is not always obvious to people 80+ years old, given some unimaginable joined up tech exists in other parts of our lives these days...he may not even have realised the enforcement was not done by the station staff 'who know me').

• Car ticketed during the day.
• He appealed on basis of having a ticket (image of ticket sent with appeal)

• They refused appeal (basis: ticket not displayed in car) of course they are correct on that - it wasn't.

• He paid £60 fine (as reply he got intimated if you took the appeal to next level you would then lose the prompt payment discount associated with the fine)

Having heard the story yesterday and looked at all the paperwork it's clear (to me) that the ticket should have been displayed in the car window, which my dad failed to do.

Anyone got any thoughts on whether any value in asking Southern's parking contractor to re-consider this (in the context of the disability or as good will gesture, not to say they were wrong to refuse Appeal I suspect)?

Juts wondered if any experience on here of this sort of issue or would I be wasting my time?

Thanks in advance.

Firstly I'm no expert in this area although have researched it somewhat due to my own previous parking fines.

Firstly, if it's a private contractor and not a local council that's issued the ticket then there is little they can do to enforce payment apart from taking him to court, which in my opinion is rarely done. They will however send threatening letters, saying it will go to court, and I'd say that getting these can be more stressful than just paying the fine. However if you do not pay their option is really only to take you to court and for both sides to set out their case. This will not stop them from sending threatening letters saying they will take court action every month or so.

Is there any way you can prove the ticket was purchased prior to parking as the obvious counter arguement could be the ticket was purchased after receiving a ticket?

I'd always request photographic evidence and be wary what you admit to in these incidents.

I always thought that it was illegal to increase the charge if you decided to appeal the ticket and subsequently failed in doing so. But maybe someone can confirm this?
From my knowledge the 14 day discounted rate is frozen until completion of appeal.

For me, depending on the photographic evidence they have and whether you can prove the ticket was purchased prior to the fine being issued I'd consider taking this to the adjudicator or going to court if it were to get that far.

Unfortunately, I do understand that this process is usually, for most, too stressful and it's easier to pay and count it as a costly mistake.

Over the years I've been so incensed by unfair fines that I've now decided to persue them further when I'm totally convinced they are unjust and believe I have a defence against the issued fine.

Whether this is unjust or chalked up as an expensive mistake is a choice for you and your dad to decide.

From my experience most parking fine appeals are rejected purely because people generally pay them after this first appeal.

In fact once my local council ended up contacting me after rejecting my appeal, asking why it wasn't paid, when explained I'd be going to adjudicator they reply "on this occasion we will accept your appeal". I have been to court and had cases thrown out by the judge.

Like the previous poster has said, you can ask for sympathy. You can explain your very understandable mistake. However they are only after your £££ and will no doubt come back with the usual "it's your responsibility".

How you go with this is a choice only for you and your dad. I hope it works out well for you. Good luck.

 

[WesternLancer]

Firstly I'm no expert in this area although have researched it somewhat due to my own previous parking fines.

Firstly, if it's a private contractor and not a local council that's issued the ticket then there is little they can do to enforce payment apart from taking him to court, which in my opinion is rarely done. They will however send threatening letters, saying it will go to court, and I'd say that getting these can be more stressful than just paying the fine. However if you do not pay their option is really only to take you to court and for both sides to set out their case. This will not stop them from sending threatening letters saying they will take court action every month or so.

Is there any way you can prove the ticket was purchased prior to parking as the obvious counter arguement could be the ticket was purchased after receiving a ticket?

I'd always request photographic evidence and be wary what you admit to in these incidents.

I always thought that it was illegal to increase the charge if you decided to appeal the ticket and subsequently failed in doing so. But maybe someone can confirm this?
From my knowledge the 14 day discounted rate is frozen until completion of appeal.

For me, depending on the photographic evidence they have and whether you can prove the ticket was purchased prior to the fine being issued I'd consider taking this to the adjudicator or going to court if it were to get that far.

Unfortunately, I do understand that this process is usually, for most, too stressful and it's easier to pay and count it as a costly mistake.

Over the years I've been so incensed by unfair fines that I've now decided to persue them further when I'm totally convinced they are unjust and believe I have a defence against the issued fine.

Whether this is unjust or chalked up as an expensive mistake is a choice for you and your dad to decide.

From my experience most parking fine appeals are rejected purely because people generally pay them after this first appeal.

In fact once my local council ended up contacting me after rejecting my appeal, asking why it wasn't paid, when explained I'd be going to adjudicator they reply "on this occasion we will accept your appeal". I have been to court and had cases thrown out by the judge.

Like the previous poster has said, you can ask for sympathy. You can explain your very understandable mistake. However they are only after your £££ and will no doubt come back with the usual "it's your responsibility".

How you go with this is a choice only for you and your dad. I hope it works out well for you. Good luck.

Thanks for such a thorough reply - appreciated, and nice to read about your own efforts in this area! I have answered the key points you make in a separate post, plus copied the notice rejecting my dad's original appeal.

 

[WesternLancer]

Sorry - unsure how to quote extracts and answer them so hope this is clear in italics:

Firstly, if it's a private contractor and not a local council that's issued the ticket then there is little they can do to enforce payment apart from taking him to court, which in my opinion is rarely done. They will however send threatening letters, saying it will go to court, and I'd say that getting these can be more stressful than just paying the fine. However if you do not pay their option is really only to take you to court and for both sides to set out their case. This will not stop them from sending threatening letters saying they will take court action every month or so.

Good point, I'd forgotten that - it's Southern's contractor (Saba Parking Services UK ltd) on southern's private land. Maybe you could juts refuse to engage even tho some aspects of railway regs (eg travel tickets) are more 'enforceable' - however, my dad has already paid the £60 - so I guess their intimidating letter worked.

Is there any way you can prove the ticket was purchased prior to parking as the obvious counter arguement could be the ticket was purchased after receiving a ticket?

Yes, it came from ticket office (Aptis machine) looks juts like a train ticket so has the date / time it was printed on - now I check it 4 days before date of validity to park, so clear proof of no intent not to pay to park.

I'd always request photographic evidence and be wary what you admit to in these incidents.

That came with the letter demanding the fine. All done by them as you would expect.

I always thought that it was illegal to increase the charge if you decided to appeal the ticket and subsequently failed in doing so. But maybe someone can confirm this?
From my knowledge the 14 day discounted rate is frozen until completion of appeal.

It was, they stop the clock during the appeal but after that stage they say:

"You have now reached the end of our internal appeals procedure. Should you
remain dissatisfied with this decision, you may further your appeal to the
Independent Appeals Service (Using the AS Verification Code provided above)
within 28 days of this notice of rejection, details of which are available at
www.asparking.co.uk. Please note you will lose the opportunity to pay at the
reduced amount if you progress your appeal. While your appeal is in progress, the
amount payable will be put on hold until an outcome is provided for your appeal.
Please note that should your appeal be unsuccessful, Saba Park Solutions UK
Limited reserves the right to pursue the full amount outstanding as stated on the
Penalty Notice, plus any additional associated costs in accordance with our Terms
and Conditions of parking if the penalty notice remains unpaid."

Which my dad took to mean if he took it further and lost he'd have to pay more

For me, depending on the photographic evidence they have and whether you can prove the ticket was purchased prior to the fine being issued I'd consider taking this to the adjudicator or going to court if it were to get that far.

Can prove it was purchased before as above, but not 'displayed' which seems to be the basis of their rejection of the appeal.

Unfortunately, I do understand that this process is usually, for most, too stressful and it's easier to pay and count it as a costly mistake.

Yes, my dad's view when he has so much on as a carer, really.

Over the years I've been so incensed by unfair fines that I've now decided to persue them further when I'm totally convinced they are unjust and believe I have a defence against the issued fine.

Well done!

 

[oz220]

Thanks for such a thorough reply - appreciated, and nice to read about your own efforts in this area!

You're welcome. Come to think of it, the one where I was issued a PCN from my local council and appealed which was subsequently rejected was for failing to display a valid permit. Even though I actually had one. In the end they decided to accept my appeal when I stated my intention to go to the next appeal stage.

 

[MotCO]

I once received a parking (fine) ticket, but argued that I had displayed the parking fee ticket in the side window rather than the windscreen. If there was a photo, it was only of the front windscren, so they could not disprove I had not displayed the ticket, so they let me off. (I honestly can't remember if I had displayed it in the side window or whether it had fallen down but that is what I said. I did have a ticket, but they could not disprove it. )

 

[WesternLancer]

Here is a cut and paste of the appeal response :

STARTS

Thank you for your correspondence in relation to the above Penalty Notice.
Saba Park Solutions UK Limited operates as an AOS approved operator, in
accordance with the British Parking Association Code of Practice. When parking
on Railway land, the onus rests with the motorist to accept and to comply with
the Railway Byelaws.

On the date above, the driver parked the vehicle in breach of the Railway Byelaws
which are displayed at the car park.

Failing to display a valid ticket or voucher

Having reviewed the photographic evidence which you will find attached, the
vehicle has been parked within the grounds without displaying a valid ticket and
upon searching their PDA, the Parking Attendant has also been unable to locate a
valid e-ticket and therefore this notice was issued.

There is signage providing the tariffs. There are numerous ways to pay for
parking which are advertised on signage. There is also contact numbers for Indigo
where a member of staff would be able to advise of payment options available
By entering and parking within the grounds, the driver is agreeing to park in
accordance with the Terms of the Railway Byelaws and it is the customer's
responsibility to ensure they observe the Terms of the Railway Byelaws before
leaving their vehicle. It is clearly stated within the Terms of the Railway Byelaws
that a Penalty Notice will be issued if observed not parked in accordance of the
terms.

Although I have noted the points in your appeal, your appeal has been rejected due
to not displaying a valid purchase at the correct time of parking. As it is the
customer s responsibility to ensure the ticket is clearly displayed in windscreen as
clearly stated on the terms and conditions signage, Pay and display car park, for
the parking attendant to be able read.

Having reviewed the circumstances surrounding the issuing of the above Penalty
Notice, and having considered your reasons for appeal, our decision is to uphold
the Penalty Notice.

Payment at the reduced rate of £60.00 for the Penalty Notice will be accepted if
received within 14 days of the date of this letter. Payment can be made using the
following options:
• Online at www.payments.sabaparking.co.uk
• address above (please be sure to include your PN number on the rear)
• Over the telephone with one of our team on 03301235247

If you choose to pay the charge, you will not be able to appeal to the Independent
Appeals Service.

You have now reached the end of our internal appeals procedure. Should you
remain dissatisfied with this decision, you may further your appeal to the
Independent Appeals Service (Using the AS Verification Code provided above)
within 28 days of this notice of rejection, details of which are available at
www.asparking.co.uk. Please note you will lose the opportunity to pay at the
reduced amount if you progress your appeal. While your appeal is in progress, the
amount payable will be put on hold until an outcome is provided for your appeal.
Please note that should your appeal be unsuccessful, Saba Park Solutions UK
Limited reserves the right to pursue the full amount outstanding as stated on the
Penalty Notice, plus any additional associated costs in accordance with our Terms
and Conditions of parking if the penalty notice remains unpaid.

By law we are also required to inform you that Ombudsman Services
(www.ombudsman-services.org/) provides an alternative dispute resolution
service that would be competent to deal with your appeal. However, we have not
chosen to participate in their alternative dispute resolution service. As such should
you wish to appeal then you must do so to the appeals service, as explained
above.

Yours sincerely,
The Appeals Team
Customer Service Advisor

ENDS

I must say I find the last 3 sections (that I have put in red text) hard to follow/interpret (and the 28 days expires today I realise...)

 

[oz220]

Sorry - unsure how to quote extracts and answer them so hope this is clear in italics:

Firstly, if it's a private contractor and not a local council that's issued the ticket then there is little they can do to enforce payment apart from taking him to court, which in my opinion is rarely done. They will however send threatening letters, saying it will go to court, and I'd say that getting these can be more stressful than just paying the fine. However if you do not pay their option is really only to take you to court and for both sides to set out their case. This will not stop them from sending threatening letters saying they will take court action every month or so.

Good point, I'd forgotten that - it's Southern's contractor (Saba Parking Services UK ltd) on southern's private land. Maybe you could juts refuse to engage even tho some aspects of railway regs (eg travel tickets) are more 'enforceable' - however, my dad has already paid the £60 - so I guess their intimidating letter worked.

Is there any way you can prove the ticket was purchased prior to parking as the obvious counter arguement could be the ticket was purchased after receiving a ticket?

Yes, it came from ticket office (Aptis machine) looks juts like a train ticket so has the date / time it was printed on - now I check it 4 days before date of validity to park, so clear proof of no intent not to pay to park.

I'd always request photographic evidence and be wary what you admit to in these incidents.

That came with the letter demanding the fine. All done by them as you would expect.

I always thought that it was illegal to increase the charge if you decided to appeal the ticket and subsequently failed in doing so. But maybe someone can confirm this?
From my knowledge the 14 day discounted rate is frozen until completion of appeal.

It was, they stop the clock during the appeal but after that stage they say:

"You have now reached the end of our internal appeals procedure. Should you
remain dissatisfied with this decision, you may further your appeal to the
Independent Appeals Service (Using the AS Verification Code provided above)
within 28 days of this notice of rejection, details of which are available at
www.asparking.co.uk. Please note you will lose the opportunity to pay at the
reduced amount if you progress your appeal. While your appeal is in progress, the
amount payable will be put on hold until an outcome is provided for your appeal.
Please note that should your appeal be unsuccessful, Saba Park Solutions UK
Limited reserves the right to pursue the full amount outstanding as stated on the
Penalty Notice, plus any additional associated costs in accordance with our Terms
and Conditions of parking if the penalty notice remains unpaid."

Which my dad took to mean if he took it further and lost he'd have to pay more

For me, depending on the photographic evidence they have and whether you can prove the ticket was purchased prior to the fine being issued I'd consider taking this to the adjudicator or going to court if it were to get that far.

Can prove it was purchased before as above, but not 'displayed' which seems to be the basis of their rejection of the appeal.

Unfortunately, I do understand that this process is usually, for most, too stressful and it's easier to pay and count it as a costly mistake.

Yes, my dad's view when he has so much on as a carer, really.

Over the years I've been so incensed by unfair fines that I've now decided to persue them further when I'm totally convinced they are unjust and believe I have a defence against the issued fine.

Well done!

If the fine has been paid then I'd guess your only option is to write to the landowner I.e south eastern and explain the situation. Also I'd make a complaint directly to south eastern as they are the land owners and you're likely to have more success with them than the private company. Explain the situation. They are more likely to show compassion.

Never ignore correspondence from a private parking co. Always open dialog even if you wish to contest the fine and they reject it. Never ignore them.

As you have said the threatening letter has worked and the fine has been paid. Like I'd guess happens 99% of the time. Due to this you are limited in your appeal.

 

[WesternLancer]

If the fine has been paid then I'd guess your only option is to write to the landowner I.e south eastern and explain the situation. Also I'd make a complaint directly to south eastern as they are the land owners and you're likely to have more success with them than the private company. Explain the situation. They are more likely to show compassion.

Never ignore correspondence from a private parking co. Always open dialog even if you wish to contest the fine and they reject it. Never ignore them.

As you have said the threatening letter has worked and the fine has been paid. Like I'd guess happens 99% of the time. Due to this you are limited in your appeal.

Thanks - still can't work out if you use their next stage appeal process you could end up owing the remainder of the 'undiscounted' fine, but I just tried to use it using the online system and it won't accept the 'Verification Code' for appeals - so i can't find out anyway - almost certainly because I now see the 28 days my dad was given expired midnight last night (the appeal agency says in that case you have to ask the operator that issues the fine on behalf of the TOC (Southern) if they will extend your ability to appeal.

 

[thejuggler]

Private parking invoices are like navigating a minefield. Private parking invoices in a railway car park can be like navigating a minefield while blindfolded.

They mention Byelaws, but also Independent Appeals Service (also known as a Kangaroo Court). They can't do both as IAS can't consider byelaw cases, that's for Magistartes Court.

Basically the whole way they are operating is a complete sham. However as you have paid your only options are to try and take it up with Southern and see if they will play ball, or prepare papers and sue the operator and Southern for the money back, but you would need to know the private parking invoicing regime inside out to show them up for what they are and convince a Judge you know better than the expensive legal advisors they may well make use of.

 

[WesternLancer]

Firstly I'm no expert in this area although have researched it somewhat due to my own previous parking fines.

Firstly, if it's a private contractor and not a local council that's issued the ticket then there is little they can do to enforce payment apart from taking him to court, which in my opinion is rarely done. They will however send threatening letters, saying it will go to court, and I'd say that getting these can be more stressful than just paying the fine. However if you do not pay their option is really only to take you to court and for both sides to set out their case. This will not stop them from sending threatening letters saying they will take court action every month or so.
.

Appeal site quotes powers as Railway Byelaws. I have no idea if these make it more enforceable on private land that the "unenforceable" ticketing you mention on other land - eg in their FAQs:

"The Byelaws 14(4) state that it is the owner of a vehicle that may be liable for a Penalty. The Appeals Service position is that the owner will be presumed to be the registered keeper, unless it is proven otherwise and/or legal precedent is established that amends our position. If the owner was not the driver, the owner may still be liable for the Penalty"
https://www.asparking.co.uk/Faq

 

[Brissle Girl]

Thanks - I think that's the issue, not worth trying to challenge it through some sort of official channel now (and clearly not an option for my dad who has his hands full and at least tried the Appeal), but maybe I should just try and see what they reply with.

Interesting the categories of basis for Appeal included 'I had a ticket' which he did so he ticked that, but of course this just was rejected with a 'yes but you did not display it' response.

Would have really stuck in the throat for my mum who was for 30 years a BR(SR)/ NSE commuter from the same station, if she could any longer properly understand what happened.

I guess one question to ask would be "Given that one of the grounds for appeal is "I had a ticket", on what grounds would that appeal ever be accepted if it has been rejected in this instance." Noting that the only situation they seem to accept if it you had a ticket and it was on display, in which case it would never have been an issue. But I suspect it isn't worth the effort, and best accept it.

 

[jon0844]

The railway can clamp vehicles for repeated non payments, which seems to be outlawed just about everywhere else.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

The Appeals Service position is that the owner will be presumed to be the registered keeper, unless it is proven otherwise and/or legal precedent is established that amends our position.

Such nonsense as this is but one example of why railway parking charges are often unenforceable. They have got it completely the wrong way around - if they are saying that Mr X is the owner of the vehicle because he is listed as the registered keeper, then it is for them, as the claimant, to prove that this is the case in Court. There is no legal precedent that the two can be assumed to be the same, and indeed I would go so far as to say that for a significant majority of the vehicles on the road today, the two will not be the same - from company cars, to lease vehicles, to hire vehicles and so on.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

The railway can clamp vehicles for repeated non payments, which seems to be outlawed just about everywhere else.

Except that, as discussed in this blog post, the Byelaws do not have the requisite backing to act as "lawful authority" for the purposes of the general ban, as the enabling Transport Act does not anywhere allude to delegating that authority.

Anyone who does have their vehicle clamped would be well-advised to consider legal action against the clamper for trespass and breach of the clamping ban. Fortunately, it does not seem to happen too often.

 

[thejuggler]

Appeal site quotes powers as Railway Byelaws. I have no idea if these make it more enforceable on private land that the "unenforceable" ticketing you mention on other land - eg in their FAQs:

"The Byelaws 14(4) state that it is the owner of a vehicle that may be liable for a Penalty. The Appeals Service position is that the owner will be presumed to be the registered keeper, unless it is proven otherwise and/or legal precedent is established that amends our position. If the owner was not the driver, the owner may still be liable for the Penalty"
https://www.asparking.co.uk/Faq

You have too much faith in them knowing what they are talking about. The fact they are IAS registered shows they a bottom feeders of the private parking company world.

Needless to say thats complete BS and is simply what I expect from scammers. They say anything to get cash from you. Ignore whatever they say in their FAQs.

They mix Byelaws with Protection of Freedom Act to ensure they can have the cake, eat it and take possession of the shop.

In reality it has to be one or the other.

 

[WesternLancer]

I guess one question to ask would be "Given that one of the grounds for appeal is "I had a ticket", on what grounds would that appeal ever be accepted if it has been rejected in this instance." Noting that the only situation they seem to accept if it you had a ticket and it was on display, in which case it would never have been an issue. But I suspect it isn't worth the effort, and best accept it.

Thanks - good point. Presumably 'I had a ticket, left it in the car but you didn't see it' or some such, but yes, prooving you actually had a ticket is not good enough for them. They supplied pics of all the car windows without the ticket in them....

 

[oz220]

Most importantly, the first line of appeal is made directly to the company who issued the fine and they will benefit only if this fine is paid. It costs them money and time to respond, let alone take court action for any fine issued.

Unfortunately, in this case the fine has been paid and subsequently you have forfeited your further appeal options. Which is what they hoped and expected.

You had the option to pay and forget. Or take the risk in them taking further action and going to the next stage of appeal. Most people, understandably take the earlier, and so called easier option. Once you take this option you are limited to what you can do next.

Write to southern and hope they will empathise with your situation and take it up with the private company directly. After all, they are the "boss / landowner" in this situation.

Don't expect anything from the private company once the fine has been paid expect fob stories and defences from them as they have their preferred outcome already

 

[WesternLancer]

Most importantly, the first line of appeal is made directly to the company who issued the fine and they will benefit only if this fine is paid. It costs them money and time to respond, let alone take court action for any fine issued.

Unfortunately, in this case the fine has been paid and subsequently you have forfeited your further appeal options. Which is what they hoped and expected.

You had the option to pay and forget. Or take the risk in them taking further action and going to the next stage of appeal. Most people, understandably take the earlier, and so called easier option. Once you take this option you are limited to what you can do next.

Write to southern and hope they will empathise with your situation and take it up with the private company directly. After all, they are the "boss / landowner" in this situation.

Don't expect anything from the private company once the fine has been paid expect fob stories and defences from them as they have their preferred outcome already

Thanks - I must say I'd not really thought about 'appealing' to Southern - just the car park operator, but i agree with your line of thinking - so I'll try a letter to them, esp as my dad's problem is now out of time of the 'process' set out by the car park enforcers Saba.
Thanks

 

[baz962]

The railway can clamp vehicles for repeated non payments, which seems to be outlawed just about everywhere else.

As can airports and seaports. Actually I meant towing.

 

[WesternLancer]

Not applicable to railway station parking issues. This is about council issued fines...

Yes, agree, although the general principle has some comparison - ie people who actually have tickets getting fined on relatively minor issues of process, as opposed to people who have ignored the requirement to buy a ticket to start with, and are far more deserving of a penalty.

I seem to recall hearing my local council ended up taking the car parking ticket warden service back in house because their contractor was too 'assiduous' in issuing tickets for this sort of thing - minor infringements, and Councillors got fed up with endless complaints from residents about being fined 'unfairly' plus I think the cost of dealing with the appeals etc, better to have it in house and have a more 'flexible' approach in the first place.

But hard to know if TOCs would take the same line. As we know, some seem to insist on treating their customers as potential fraudsters from the very start of any interaction with them. Sad really, and of course entirely what we would have been told that a customer focused privately run system would move away from...

 

[Puffing Devil]

There is a big difference between Council, Private and Railway Land.

Council land may be covered by bylaws and traffic orders.

Private land is purely civil.

Railway and airports benefit from bylaws and statute law.

All have different ways of enforcement.

 

[WesternLancer]

I have written to Southern to appeal to their better nature on this one, citing the circumstances in full. Will see what happens when they have a chance to consider it. Advice on here was helpful, so thanks to folk.

 

[philthetube]

Here is a cut and paste of the appeal response :

STARTS



If you choose to pay the charge, you will not be able to appeal to the Independent
Appeals Service.

You have now reached the end of our internal appeals procedure. Should you
remain dissatisfied with this decision, you may further your appeal to the
Independent Appeals Service (Using the AS Verification Code provided above)
within 28 days of this notice of rejection, details of which are available at
www.asparking.co.uk. Please note you will lose the opportunity to pay at the
reduced amount if you progress your appeal. While your appeal is in progress, the
amount payable will be put on hold until an outcome is provided for your appeal.
Please note that should your appeal be unsuccessful, Saba Park Solutions UK
Limited reserves the right to pursue the full amount outstanding as stated on the
Penalty Notice, plus any additional associated costs in accordance with our Terms
and Conditions of parking if the penalty notice remains unpaid.

By law we are also required to inform you that Ombudsman Services
(www.ombudsman-services.org/) provides an alternative dispute resolution
service that would be competent to deal with your appeal. However, we have not
chosen to participate in their alternative dispute resolution service. As such should
you wish to appeal then you must do so to the appeals service, as explained
above.

Yours sincerely,
The Appeals Team
Customer Service Advisor

ENDS

I must say I find the last 3 sections (that I have put in red text) hard to follow/interpret (and the 28 days expires today I realise...)

Can they legally make these statements, does anyone on here know for sure?

 

[thejuggler]

Can they legally make these statements, does anyone on here know for sure?

Their job is to get you to pay. They will say whatever they like in order to do so and it is legal until it gets to Court and is tested.

 

[philthetube]

I agree that they can say what they like but I was under the impression that there were laws concerning car parking which expressly forbade things like not stopping the clock while an appeal went forward, I am asking if that is correct.

 

[island]

Discounts for early settlement are offered as an incentive to pay promptly and not appeal. You either pay and get a discount or appeal and risk needing to pay the full whack.

 

[philthetube]

I understand this, but are they legally allowed to effectively penalise someone for appealing