Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

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hornbyfan99

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Mod edit: The forum team are aware that the extension of Driver-Only Operation (DOO) is a highly passionate topic. As such, in this thread only, we are now trialling allowing free debate on the subject.

Please be advised that, due to the anticipated pace of discussion and the understandable passion on both sides of the debate, this thread will be reactively moderated only, with the exception of bad language and direct personal insults.

Also, until legal proceedings are completed or dropped, discussion of the driver dispute with GTR on their Gatwick Express route is not permitted, however discussion on the guard dispute, and more general debate on DOO is expressly permitted in this thread only.

The forum team, at their sole discretion, may also move posts from other threads into this one if they are on the subject of DOO.


I see from the RMT website http://www.rmt.org.uk/news/role-of-the-guard-and-extension-of-doo310316/ that there is to be a ballot with regard to the role of Conductors on the Southern part of GTR.

Looks like battle lines are drawn following recent comments from ASLEF/RMT on extensions of DOO, and Peter Wilkinson's comments at the now infamous meeting in Croydon (further detail on page 13 of the latest 'Modern Railways').

Will be interested to see how this plays out, and whether it turns into a long drawn out dispute.

Just read in The Railway magazine that Southern may loose most of their 400 guard/conductor jobs and be replaced by DOO/OPO.

I was talking to a Southern guard on the WLL and they told me that they would be kept on that route as well as on the Uckfield line. I just want to know if this is correct? and what services will keep guards.

Also, do we know when the stages of implementation will take place for the whole network?

Many of the Southern stations do not have ticket barriers so where would you buy tickets if the machines were broken for example?

Aren't some of the Marshlink stations request stops and therefore, DOO is not permitted?

Finally do you think the Driver Control Operation could be done?
 
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aformeruser

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Peter Wilkinson's comments at the now infamous meeting in Croydon (further detail on page 13 of the latest 'Modern Railways').

It should be noted that Mr Wilkinson once did an anti-ticket gate rant saying about them being useless dumb robots (or similar) and that staff providing more ticket checks would be better value for money. At the time that was liked by unions but it seems DfT were unwilling to make his idea DfT policy and he himself has since been involved in including requirements for ticket gates in franchise specs.
 
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Stow

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Just read in The Railway magazine that Southern may loose most of their 400 guard/conductor jobs and be replaced by DOO/OPO.

I was talking to a Southern guard on the WLL and they told me that they would be kept on that route as well as on the Uckfield line. I just want to know if this is correct? and what services will keep guards.

Also, do we know when the stages of implementation will take place for the whole network?

Many of the Southern stations do not have ticket barriers so where would you buy tickets if the machines were broken for example?

Aren't some of the Marshlink stations request stops and therefore, DOO is not permitted?

Finally do you think the Driver Control Operation could be done?

I started this thread thread on the same topic the other day; http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=128776

I haven't seen all the details but sounds like a big change
 

cjmillsnun

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-36082600
Conductors on Southern railway have voted to go on strike in a dispute over proposed changes to their role and the introduction of driver-only trains.
Members of the RMT union were 306 in favour of walkouts and 14 against. A total of 320 votes to one backed other forms of industrial action.
The union is against plans for a new grade of on-board supervisor and proposals for drivers to operate doors.
Operator Govia Thameslink said the changes would make staff more visible.
The union said it was fighting to keep the conductor grade and the changes were "nothing short of bullying and harassment".
'Eyes and ears'
RMT general secretary Mick Cash said the "reward" for the "loyal and professional service" of members was having their "role and responsibility reduced and their hard-earned terms and conditions attacked".
"These trains are desperately over-crowded and the conductors are the eyes and ears preventing a major tragedy on the platforms and carriages," he said.
He added the company had already axed catering services, "threatened" ticket offices and delivered "appalling levels of customer service in their drive to milk these routes for every penny they can".
Southern operates in Sussex, Surrey and parts of Kent and Hampshire.

All I can say is I wish the conductors the best of luck.

EDIT: with the GatEx dispute having pending court action can we keep this away from the GatEx dispute and concentrate on the Southern Conductors please
 
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Agent_c

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-36082600


All I can say is I wish the conductors the best of luck.

EDIT: with the GatEx dispute having pending court action can we keep this away from the GatEx dispute and concentrate on the Southern Conductors please

Is this actually a different dispute, or is it the same one? Southern had GatEx in its franchise then GoVia got Southern in its... The DOO question looks like its the same, although the other dispute seemed ASLEF lead rather than RMT.
 

Agent_c

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Surely the thread title is premature? I thought a ballot had yet to take place.

No, the article says the ballot was nearly unanimous.
Members of the RMT union were 306 in favour of walkouts and 14 against. A total of 320 votes to one backed other forms of industrial action.
 

HarleyDavidson

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Spoke to a driver from SN last night and he said that they're up to no good, there's more to this than meets the eye and morale is very poor.

All I can say is good luck to them, don't let GTR grind you down. The sooner they're gone the better, preferably as soon as Connex.
 

HLE

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Good luck to all southern conductors.
Just goes to show the value of the unions.
 

LBSCR Times

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Considering a large part of GTR is already DOO, then the effect might not be so great as expected.
Travelled on six GTR (Southern) services last weekend, including the WLL, and only once did the Conductor actually walk through the train, so they don't help their case at times.
 

tony6499

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I would imagine managers etc are being rushed through basic guards training to try and run a service on the strike days, whether drivers will now accept a poorly trained manager doing a guards job is another matter
 

387star

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Do South West Trains ban DOO on the Portsmouth and Southampton routes? Thought they did?

Did the 313s run doo under lorol?
 
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Flamingo

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Good luck everybody on here from Southern. It's the fight of everybody who works for the railway, or knows what's best for the railway and passengers.
 

bramling

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Considering a large part of GTR is already DOO, then the effect might not be so great as expected.
Travelled on six GTR (Southern) services last weekend, including the WLL, and only once did the Conductor actually walk through the train, so they don't help their case at times.

To be fair, that's not generally been my experience over the years.

People will never work to their best when morale is bad, which is undoubtedly is at present.
 

HLE

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Good luck everybody on here from Southern. It's the fight of everybody who works for the railway, or knows what's best for the railway and passengers.

In one.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Good luck. Southern's guards are usually excellent and hard-working. It's a disappointment to see the grade treated so poorly by the higher ups.

All about cost.
 

Surreytraveller

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I would imagine managers etc are being rushed through basic guards training to try and run a service on the strike days, whether drivers will now accept a poorly trained manager doing a guards job is another matter

Not rushed through. They've been trained for ages. This has all been in the pipeline for years.
 

YoungJohnson

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Good luck to the guards. DOO is a joke. Drivers should not be risking jail time for dealing with drunks and idiotic wasters on platforms jumping on the side of trains, whilst trying to deal with other duties.

Guards are much better placed to deal with anti social behaviour / drunkeness or other medical issues which may warrant intervention in behaviour on platforms.

Perhaps if the management want DOO so badly they can ensure that all drivers are immune from prosecution once they get the interlock light, and the passengers are responsible for their own actions.
 

LBSCR Times

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It's one fight the management cannot afford to lose.
And it's a political dispute by the higher echelons of ASLEF and the RMT, both of whom are opposed to privatisation of the rail industry.
 

eusd

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Genuine question :

How do conductors today think they have a case against the 12 car DOO trains, when there are already operational 12-car 377s on Thameslink services ?
 
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Genuine question :

How do conductors today think they have a case against the 12 car DOO trains, when there are already operational 12-car 377s on Thameslink services ?

And already 12-car 387/1 and 387/2 (i.e. exactly the same trains as GatEx) running on exactly the same tracks, between most of the same stations.

I fully support trades unions doing the best they can for their members, but how can the unions justify a DOO dispute when they've already acquiesced for DOO on identical stock over the same routes. It just plays right into the management and Government's hands by allowing them to classify the action as an example of union intransigence.
 

tony6499

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Genuine question :

How do conductors today think they have a case against the 12 car DOO trains, when there are already operational 12-car 377s on Thameslink services ?

It's not about 12 car DOO but about the withdrawal of the grade of Conductor and forcing people into a new role with diminished responsibilities
 

387star

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The 313s can't run doo can they?

I thought doo was banned from the swt network ie beyond havant but that might be untrue
 

Agent_c

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Genuine question :

How do conductors today think they have a case against the 12 car DOO trains, when there are already operational 12-car 377s on Thameslink services ?

That would require them to accept the proposition that those are safe.

presuming 50 passengers a car, thats 600 passengers to one safety trained person, and that safety trained person is the first to hit the wall/train/etc in the event of a collusion.

Do you think thats safe?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
And already 12-car 387/1 and 387/2 (i.e. exactly the same trains as GatEx) running on exactly the same tracks, between most of the same stations.

I fully support trades unions doing the best they can for their members, but how can the unions justify a DOO dispute when they've already acquiesced for DOO on identical stock over the same routes. It just plays right into the management and Government's hands by allowing them to classify the action as an example of union intransigence.

You fight the battles you can win, not the ones you wish you could.
 
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