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Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

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ANorthernGuard

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ASLEF & the RMT have made it clear NO extension to DOO and the aim is to rid DOO where it already is. So for the first time in a long time both of the main Rail Unions are in total agreement and are willing to stand TOGETHER. Obviously guards like myself are fighting for our future and Drivers know that 2 Safety Critical members of staff on a train are always better than one. Before The Government and TOC management used the divide and rule tactics, This time that cannot work so very interesting times ahead.
 
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eusd

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It's not about 12 car DOO but about the withdrawal of the grade of Conductor and forcing people into a new role with diminished responsibilities

Ah. But if they aren't going to be operating the doors, then the role has already changed surely? So there'd be no sense in keeping a certain pay grade if the role doesn't exist in that capacity any more...
 
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That would require them to accept the proposition that those are safe.

presuming 50 passengers a car, thats 600 passengers to one safety trained person, and that safety trained person is the first to hit the wall/train/etc in the event of a collusion.

Do you think thats safe?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


You fight the battles you can win, not the ones you wish you could.

What happens if the Guard/Conductor is sitting in the rear cab of a 12-car unit that gets hit from behind? Given that 12-car 377 and 387 trains have been running for some time now on Thameslink, I certainly don't feel unduly worried that there isn't someone wearing a Thameslink uniform sitting in the rear cab doing a sudoku and occasionally pushing a button to close the doors.

Thameslink employ rapacious RPIs to check tickets, so no job for a conductor there and there are monitors in the cab so the driver can check the doors before closing them, so no job for a conductor there either. Sooner or later the unions are going to have to accept that the industry can't afford to carry around an extra passenger on every train "just in case ...".

As I've said, that doesn't mean that I don't believe in unions. They're paid by their members to protect their interests and if I were a Conductor on Southern I'd expect them to be protecting my interests. I mean, where else can you get paid to look out of a train at the track receding from your view?
 

ANorthernGuard

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What happens if the Guard/Conductor is sitting in the rear cab of a 12-car unit that gets hit from behind? Given that 12-car 377 and 387 trains have been running for some time now on Thameslink, I certainly don't feel unduly worried that there isn't someone wearing a Thameslink uniform sitting in the rear cab doing a sudoku and occasionally pushing a button to close the doors.

Thameslink employ rapacious RPIs to check tickets, so no job for a conductor there and there are monitors in the cab so the driver can check the doors before closing them, so no job for a conductor there either. Sooner or later the unions are going to have to accept that the industry can't afford to carry around an extra passenger on every train "just in case ...".

As I've said, that doesn't mean that I don't believe in unions. They're paid by their members to protect their interests and if I were a Conductor on Southern I'd expect them to be protecting my interests. I mean, where else can you get paid to look out of a train at the track receding from your view?

Couple of quick questions to you as we are just "passengers"

The Driver is injured or worse or there is a fire on the train.

You really do not have a clue.

Do you know where to go?

Do You know about the 25kv above your head or the 650-750dc next to the rail?

Do you know what direction the next train will be coming from?

Do You know the line speed?

There are so many questions that can be asked which a Guard knows and keeps passenegers SAFE.
 

highdyke

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The replacement of guards with retail grades is in my view a test case for wider modernisation and changes in transport in the next 20 years. This is just the start.

Changes in government policy and technology will always trump the unions. The realists among us recognise things change (not always for the better). The rail unions will probably go the same way as the mining unions in the end.
 

LBSCR Times

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Couple of quick questions to you as we are just "passengers"

The Driver is injured or worse or there is a fire on the train.

You really do not have a clue.

Do you know where to go?

Do You know about the 25kv above your head or the 650-750dc next to the rail?

Do you know what direction the next train will be coming from?

Do You know the line speed?

There are so many questions that can be asked which a Guard knows and keeps passenegers SAFE.

Remind me how long DOO has been in operation?
Especially on the Thameslink route too, with both OHLE and 3rd rail.
Safety is a red herring being used to justify the dispute, it's been perfectly safe for many years in the London area.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The 313s can't run doo can they?

I thought doo was banned from the swt network ie beyond havant but that might be untrue

313's on GTR will continue to have Conductors.
And DOO route clearance has nothing to do with SWT, it is up to NR Wessex to say whether the route is clear or not.
 

74A

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I thought doo was banned from the swt network ie beyond havant but that might be untrue

This is an urban myth Im afraid. DOO-P can run anywhere. Just because SWT don't do it it doesn't mean no one else can
 

ANorthernGuard

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The replacement of guards with retail grades is in my view a test case for wider modernisation and changes in transport in the next 20 years. This is just the start.

Changes in government policy and technology will always trump the unions. The realists among us recognise things change (not always for the better). The rail unions will probably go the same way as the mining unions in the end.

The Mines died because Coal was cheaper elsewhere Until someone somewhere comes up with a method of working that is as safe if not safer than 2 man operation with incidents not swept under the carpet (like what happens very regularly in doo land), which will not happen. With the extra responsibilities attempted to be forced onto drivers with longer and longer trains and PTI incidents in there plenty ASLEF are doing what their members want just like the RMT. You diminish the role you diminish safety and remember the only people who will benefit are the Shareholders. The passengers certainly won't.
 

ANorthernGuard

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Remind me how long DOO has been in operation?
Especially on the Thameslink route too, with both OHLE and 3rd rail.
Safety is a red herring being used to justify the dispute, it's been perfectly safe for many years in the London area.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


313's on GTR will continue to have Conductors.
And DOO route clearance has nothing to do with SWT, it is up to NR Wessex to say whether the route is clear or not.

Why don't you have a look at all the raib reports in DOO land and see how many would have been avoided if a Guard was on board. You ask DOO drivers about the incidents that happen and why they want Guards back on their trains. Remember ASLEF do what their members want. If DOO was so safe why do DOO drivers want Guards back?
 

absolutelymilk

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Couple of quick questions to you as we are just "passengers"

The Driver is injured or worse or there is a fire on the train.

You really do not have a clue.

Do you know where to go?

Do You know about the 25kv above your head or the 650-750dc next to the rail?

Do you know what direction the next train will be coming from?

Do You know the line speed?

There are so many questions that can be asked which a Guard knows and keeps passengers SAFE.

The question is whether paying for guards to sit in the train on the very rare chance that an accident occurs is worth it.

If fares were lower and there was more money for investment, then more people would travel by rail and so deaths due to road accidents and pollution would decrease, likely by more than could be saved by a guard on the one in a million case that a driver is incapacitated by an accident.
 

ANorthernGuard

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The question is whether paying for guards to sit in the train on the very rare chance that an accident occurs is worth it.

If fares were lower and there was more money for investment, then more people would travel by rail and so deaths due to road accidents and pollution would decrease, likely by more than could be saved by a guard on the one in a million case that a driver is incapacitated by an accident.

I wish I spent my day sat down for a 10 hour shift. In my time as a Guard I have helped 2 passengers with Cardiac arrests, Stopped muggers, fights. Had Drug users arrested dealt with the aftermath of 2 suicides and an attempted. Dealt with upset, Young, Foreign, old, Confused Passengers and taken probably well over a million Pounds in Revenue (Avg 100k a year) and in that time yeas I have sat down on occasion.
 

74A

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In my time as a Guard I have helped 2 passengers with Cardiac arrests, Stopped muggers, fights. Had Drug users arrested dealt with the aftermath of 2 suicides and an attempted. Dealt with upset, Young, Foreign, old, Confused Passengers and taken probably well over a million Pounds in Revenue (Avg 100k a year) and in that time yeas I have sat down on occasion.


But none of these require you to be a guard.
 

highdyke

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The Mines died because Coal was cheaper elsewhere Until someone somewhere comes up with a method of working that is as safe if not safer than 2 man operation with incidents not swept under the carpet (like what happens very regularly in doo land), which will not happen. With the extra responsibilities attempted to be forced onto drivers with longer and longer trains and PTI incidents in there plenty ASLEF are doing what their members want just like the RMT. You diminish the role you diminish safety and remember the only people who will benefit are the Shareholders. The passengers certainly won't.

Well the mines closed because of changes in energy policy and technology associated with gas and renewables.

It seems that the current policy is to switch staff to serving customers needs leaving the drive in sole charge of the train. I can understand why staff do not like this as it means a cut in pay for new entrants and a loss in status.

Shareholders is a diversion. BR tried to implement DOO in the 1980s with varied success because it needed to cut costs, partly because government policy was against rail and mostly because rail wasn't providing cost effectiveness against other modes.

With large subsidies and high fares this is partly true today.
 

ANorthernGuard

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But none of these require you to be a guard.

Suicides yes as I am safety critical the point is that we multitask and do so many different jobs. We DON'T just sit in the back like has been mentioned.

I am not going to comment any more as this is going the same way as all the over DOO threads and all it does is alienate the Rail staff who use the forum.
 
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Couple of quick questions to you as we are just "passengers"

The Driver is injured or worse or there is a fire on the train.

You really do not have a clue.

Do you know where to go?

Do You know about the 25kv above your head or the 650-750dc next to the rail?

Do you know what direction the next train will be coming from?

Do You know the line speed?

There are so many questions that can be asked which a Guard knows and keeps passenegers SAFE.

Actually, I have a very good "clue" as you put it. I know that in most instances, the safest thing is to stay on the train. I know if there is a fire, to move away from the big orange burny thing. I know not to step on ANY rail. I know what 25kv can do. Who cares about the line speed? I'll be killed just as effectively by a 500 ton train doing 10 mph as by one doing 125 mph. Assuming I'm not (a) on fire, (b) dead, (c) missing vital limbs, (d) any combination of the former, I'm as trained in first aid as any Conductor and I have access to information via my smartphone that will give me a pretty good idea where the next train will be coming from (although in the event of a wrong side derailment that is likely to be from both directions). If the only person able to deal with an emergency situation is the Conductor, why do they put passenger safety notices on all trains, including those conveying a Conductor? Perhaps on those trains, there is no need for emergency door release handles or for passenger emergency pulls, since the diligent Safety Critical Conductor will be constantly patrolling the train.

"Safety Critical" is the mantra that's always wailed by those with a vested interest. If the only reason there is a need for a Conductor is to deal with emergency situations, then GTR might as well use volunteers from the St John's Ambulance. Need I remind you of the case where the Merseyrail Conductor allowed his train to depart whilst a passenger was still trying to board the train? We all know the outcome and it goes to show that even with a Conductor present, you can't eliminate all risk.
 

Don King

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Good luck to the guards.

No one has ever been able to answer my question about what a driver is supposed to do when a muppet is leaning against the rearmost vehicle and I am trapped up the front relying on pathetic CCTV.

DOO is an insult and I do not want to serve porridge because I am busy concentrating on the line ahead whilst some dingbat decides to hi five the side of the train and gets chopped in two, or starts punching and spitting at the cab as I am just pulling out, because he missed the train.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I wish I spent my day sat down for a 10 hour shift. In my time as a Guard I have helped 2 passengers with Cardiac arrests, Stopped muggers, fights. Had Drug users arrested dealt with the aftermath of 2 suicides and an attempted. Dealt with upset, Young, Foreign, old, Confused Passengers and taken probably well over a million Pounds in Revenue (Avg 100k a year) and in that time yeas I have sat down on occasion.

Don't worry we drivers can do all that and drive the train apparently. And it is far better to deal with passengers dangerously close to the side being locked away at the front than being positioned on the platform at the most appropriate location. Rail Minister Claire Perry says so and she worked as a banker so obviously knows more than we do...
 

sarahj

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The question is whether paying for guards to sit in the train on the very rare chance that an accident occurs is worth it.

If fares were lower and there was more money for investment, then more people would travel by rail and so deaths due to road accidents and pollution would decrease, likely by more than could be saved by a guard on the one in a million case that a driver is incapacitated by an accident.

Do you think the money saved on removing guards will go to lower fares.:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

And this is not just about the main line, this is also removing guards from all services formed by a 377 and its others. Thats Sussex coast (Ore to Southampton and branches), Arun Valley, All BML services.
While the new role sounds, 'oh so great', once its in, there is no guarantee for them to be on any train.
And then for how long will the role last. The Gatex ones lasted oh so long.

And thats all I'm going to say on the matter. You know my feelings.
 
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74A

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No one has ever been able to answer my question about what a driver is supposed to do when a muppet is leaning against the rearmost vehicle and I am trapped up the front relying on pathetic CCTV.

You wait until they have moved away
 
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Good luck to the guards.

No one has ever been able to answer my question about what a driver is supposed to do when a muppet is leaning against the rearmost vehicle and I am trapped up the front relying on pathetic CCTV.

DOO is an insult and I do not want to serve porridge because I am busy concentrating on the line ahead whilst some dingbat decides to hi five the side of the train and gets chopped in two, or starts punching and spitting at the cab as I am just pulling out, because he missed the train.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Don't worry we drivers can do all that and drive the train apparently. And it is far better to deal with passengers dangerously close to the side being locked away at the front than being positioned on the platform at the most appropriate location. Rail Minister Claire Perry says so and she worked as a banker so obviously knows more than we do...

Time to consider another career, or get a driving job that doesn't involve self-loading cargo then.
 

pemma

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But none of these require you to be a guard.

I think that's an underlying problem. The unions seem to class every proposal where the guard doesn't both open and close the doors as DOO.

As a passenger I don't want 1 member of staff on board or want the second member of staff to be agency staff who's had 5 minutes training in how to use a portable ticket machine. However, I don't think it's imperative the guard does the doors and I also think there should be a better way of alerting on board staff to an incident. The 185 toilets have an emergency intercom, why isn't something like that standard in different parts of all trains?
 

Don King

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Time to consider another career, or get a driving job that doesn't involve self-loading cargo then.

So that is the solution? Accept everything thrown at you or resign? What a pathetic country we have become if that's the mentality these days.

God praise the corporates and the Tories eh?
 

ANorthernGuard

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So that is the solution? Accept everything thrown at you or resign? What a pathetic country we have become if that's the mentality these days.

God praise the corporates and the Tories eh?

A lot here do (that's obvious)
 

highdyke

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So that is the solution? Accept everything thrown at you or resign? What a pathetic country we have become if that's the mentality these days.

God praise the corporates and the Tories eh?

That is the way of the world, jobs are created and destroyed. Just as the thousands of signalmen since the peak of signalboxes in 1900, Locomotive fireman, typists, manufacturers of photographic film, blacksmiths, factory workers, etc, etc. Northing to do with Tories, everything to do with changing technology.

I seem tor remember the Labour party promised to keep railways open in the 60s, quickly changing policy in favour of car makers and motorway builders.
 
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JamesTT

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I have heard the new role will not mean a reduction in wages (I assume this includes no loss of commission). The company has said no 'compulsory' redundancies. (Does this mean that there will be some redundancies then?)

How many PTI accidents have occured involving DOO services compared to those with a conductor?

Is the overriding consensus of opinion that the OBS role will end up going the way of Gatwick Express hosts and the onboard catering staff?
 

Don King

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I think that's an underlying problem. The unions seem to class every proposal where the guard doesn't both open and close the doors as DOO.

They don't. Voyager operation for example is not DOO, yet the driver presses the actual buttons both to open and close. Same on Turbo stock in non DOO areas.

The question is who takes the liability (and subsequent prison sentence if it goes wrong) for dispatch of the train, not who presses the button.
 

tony6499

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Do you think the money saved on removing guards will go to lower fares.:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

And this is not just about the main line, this is also removing guards from all services formed by a 377 and its others. Thats Sussex coast (Ore to Southampton and branches), Arun Valley, All BML services.
While the new role sounds, 'oh so great', once its in, there is no guarantee for them to be on any train.
And then for how long will the role last. The Gatex ones lasted oh so long.

And thats all I'm going to say on the matter. You know my feelings.

The On Board Hosts on the Brighton Expresses lasted even shorter, Senior Conductor , On Board Host which was a similar role to the proposed new one to nothing in rapid time
 

Don King

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That is the way of the world, jobs are created and destroyed. Just as the thousands of signalmen since the peak of signalboxes in 1990, Locomotive fireman, typists, manufacturers of photographic film blacksmiths, factory workers, etc, etc. Northing to do with Tories, everything to do with changing technology.

I seem tor remember the Labour party promised to keep railways open in the 60s, quickly changing policy in favour of car makers and motorway builders.

Many are due to technology changes. You could perhaps make a valid case for this if technology was the reason - for example if all stations had platform doors with sensors for example. Bit different to dumping the same liability and process just onto one bloke (who has enough to deal with), rather than spread it more sensibly by two.
 

absolutelymilk

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Do you think the money saved on removing guards will go to lower fares.

Probably a combination of lower subsidy, more investment, lower fares and higher profits in the short term for the franchisee until the franchise ends and a new franchise takes into account the higher profitability with DOO.
 
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