Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[tony6499]

I have heard the new role will not mean a reduction in wages (I assume this includes no loss of commission). The company has said no 'compulsory' redundancies. (Does this mean that there will be some redundancies then?)

How many PTI accidents have occured involving DOO services compared to those with a conductor?

Is the overriding consensus of opinion that the OBS role will end up going the way of Gatwick Express hosts and the onboard catering staff?

If there is no loss of wages and terms which there is BTW what would be the point of removing Conductors ?

 

[highdyke]

They don't. Voyager operation for example is not DOO, yet the driver presses the actual buttons both to open and close. Same on Turbo stock in non DOO areas.

The question is who takes the liability (and subsequent prison sentence if it goes wrong) for dispatch of the train, not who presses the button.

Drivers are paid upward of 40k, they should take the responsibility.

 

[The Box Photter]

So that is the solution? Accept everything thrown at you or resign? What a pathetic country we have become if that's the mentality these days.

God praise the corporates and the Tories eh?

Well no-one is forcing anyone to stay in a job they don't like. I have good days and bad days in my job like everyone else, but its sounds like so many of the rail staff on here positively hate every aspect of their jobs, management, passengers, Government, cab seat designers, uniform designers etc. Really, if it's so bad, think about something else.

Or perhaps there are many reasons to stay, such as high salaries, guaranteed overtime, voluntary weekend working, militant unions to guard (pardon the pun) your backs and your gold-plated working conditions.

Remember how strong the unions were in fighting for their members' rights and conditions in the UK car industry in the 1970s and 80s. Look how those unions and their actions have resulted in the mighty powerhouse that is the current UK car industry and how the UK car industry is regarded as being the pinnacle of success by other nations, Oh ... hang on...

 

[Agent_c]

What happens if the Guard/Conductor is sitting in the rear cab of a 12-car unit that gets hit from behind?

Then lucky there's a guy on the other end of the train who's safety trained....

Thameslink employ rapacious RPIs to check tickets, so no job for a conductor

A non safety trained RPI who's presence is optional

there and there are monitors in the cab so the driver can check the doors before closing them, so no job for a conductor there either.

How many pairs of eyes do you have? 5? 6? It must be more than one pair if you're watching that many videos at one time with no impact on your ability to pay attention

 

[highdyke]

If there is no loss of wages and terms which there is BTW what would be the point of removing Conductors ?

Operational flexibility, serving customers and less dwell time.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Drivers are paid upward of 40k, they should take the responsibility.

Well that didnt take long lol

 

[absolutelymilk]

If there is no loss of wages and terms which there is BTW what would be the point of removing Conductors ?

The guard can concentrate on collecting revenue or assisting customers and not have to worry about the doors (or being at the doors when the train comes to a stop).

Once the current guards have moved on/retired, then they can hire staff who do not have to be trained to operate the doors and are therefore cheaper.

 

[Don King]

Drivers are paid upward of 40k, they should take the responsibility.

Which they get due to all their other responsibilities, and pay negotiations. And the highest paid drivers (Eurostar, Virgin, XC) have no responsibility.

Presumably we should pay drivers to self dispatch from Paddington, Euston, Reading, Crewe, Liverpool Lime Street, and other insanely busy stations if we pay them even more then, if it is just a question of money?

 

[highdyke]

Many are due to technology changes. You could perhaps make a valid case for this if technology was the reason - for example if all stations had platform doors with sensors for example. Bit different to dumping the same liability and process just onto one bloke (who has enough to deal with), rather than spread it more sensibly by two.

Surely drivers have gained through technology? Surely modern trains are less tricky than Steam locomotives? Better view, aircon, arguably less tricky to drive.

 

[Don King]

Operational flexibility, serving customers and less dwell time.

Until something goes wrong. Then it is far more dwell time (be it faults, idiots on the side of the train and so on)...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Well no-one is forcing anyone to stay in a job they don't like. I have good days and bad days in my job like everyone else, but its sounds like so many of the rail staff on here positively hate every aspect of their jobs, management, passengers, Government, cab seat designers, uniform designers etc. Really, if it's so bad, think about something else.

Or perhaps there are many reasons to stay, such as high salaries, guaranteed overtime, voluntary weekend working, militant unions to guard (pardon the pun) your backs and your gold-plated working conditions.

Remember how strong the unions were in fighting for their members' rights and conditions in the UK car industry in the 1970s and 80s. Look how those unions and their actions have resulted in the mighty powerhouse that is the current UK car industry and how the UK car industry is regarded as being the pinnacle of success by other nations, Oh ... hang on...

I don't hate passengers, or my line managers. I actually enjoy DRIVING trains. I have utter contempt for government busybodies and corporates who haven't a clue what is safe and what isn't and are motivated by profit.

I do hate having to take on criminal liability for idiotic behaviour because some greedy people want to make more money. I do not see how that improves things for anyone other than fat cats.

 

[The Box Photter]

Well that didnt take long lol

It doesn't mean it isn't a valid point.

Perhaps an increase in driver's wages to cover the added responsibility might be in order, plus the opportunity for Guards/Conductors with the appropriate aptitude to re-train as drivers. There seems to be a constant shortage of drivers on Thameslink and Southern, but an excess of Conductors. The solution seems to present itself.

If you don't feel able to handle the responsibilities that go with driving a passenger train for £40k plus overtime, plus subsidised travel, the opportunity is there to become an off-grid spoon whittler, or perhaps something in Health & Safety, given your "Safety Critical" credentials.

 

[Don King]

Surely drivers have gained through technology? Surely modern trains are less tricky than Steam locomotives? Better view, aircon, arguably less tricky to drive.

We gain through technology where it is appropriately used. Not doing the work of other staff on top of our duties, which is nothing to do with technology and all to do with cost cutting.

 

[The Box Photter]

Edited to add: I take on potential criminal liability every time I drive my car, but it doesn't stop me driving.

 

[highdyke]

We gain through technology where it is appropriately used. Not doing the work of other staff on top of our duties, which is nothing to do with technology and all to do with cost cutting.

But we have the safest railway in Europe?

 

[Agent_c]

Surely drivers have gained through technology? Surely modern trains are less tricky than Steam locomotives? Better view, aircon, arguably less tricky to drive.

Faster....

 

[Don King]

But we have the safest railway in Europe?

What has that got to do with DOO? Plenty of European countries have DOO.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

It doesn't mean it isn't a valid point.

Perhaps an increase in driver's wages to cover the added responsibility might be in order, plus the opportunity for Guards/Conductors with the appropriate aptitude to re-train as drivers. There seems to be a constant shortage of drivers on Thameslink and Southern, but an excess of Conductors. The solution seems to present itself.

If you don't feel able to handle the responsibilities that go with driving a passenger train for £40k plus overtime, plus subsidised travel, the opportunity is there to become an off-grid spoon whittler, or perhaps something in Health & Safety, given your "Safety Critical" credentials.

How about as you know so much about the job. Apply, Train, Gain experience and knowledge of the job then come back to me. Somehow I just cannot see that happening.

 

[74A]

We gain through technology where it is appropriately used. Not doing the work of other staff on top of our duties, which is nothing to do with technology and all to do with cost cutting.

Well a lot of your colleagues have been doing this. Some for 30 years since DOO came in.

 

[Agent_c]

But we have the safest railway in Europe?

Lets keep it that way, rather than trying to find ways to undermine it for a quick buck.

 

[highdyke]

What has that got to do with DOO? Plenty of European countries have DOO.

Just saying most of the heavily trafficked lines in the UK are DOO. With the UK topping the league, surely it cannot be that unsafe. It seems drivers are more than capable of rising to the challenge.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Well a lot of your colleagues have been doing this. Some for 30 years since DOO came in.

And those same Colleagues now want Guards back. Hence why ASLEF have joined forces with the RMT.

 

[TheEdge]

This is probably a waste of breath and will just rile up my blood given my recent conductor duties...

I know that in most instances, the safest thing is to stay on the train.

With the incapacitated driver and with those in a position to do anything none the wiser to the incident?

I know if there is a fire, to move away from the big orange burny thing. I know not to step on ANY rail. I know what 25kv can do.

So in a jucntion you could be absolutely sure you were not to step on or near (it will can arc in the right conditions) any 3rd rail equipment, maybe even insulated wiring. And in a situation where you may be near damaged 25kV you know of the danger posed by (or even the location or existence of) the red bond, or the return conductor, even a damaged stanchion earthing the current? Bearing in mind its not unknown for staff to be caught and injured by OHL.

Who cares about the line speed? I'll be killed just as effectively by a 500 ton train doing 10 mph as by one doing 125 mph.

You will, because you have a chance of avoiding a 10mph train, not a 125mph one. Lets say you are on a 4+ track mainline. Do you know which are the fast lines with no chance of avoiding an oncoming train as to the slows? Remembering the order can change.

Assuming I'm not (a) on fire, (b) dead, (c) missing vital limbs, (d) any combination of the former, I'm as trained in first aid as any Conductor and I have access to information via my smartphone that will give me a pretty good idea where the next train will be coming from (although in the event of a wrong side derailment that is likely to be from both directions).

The smartphone that indicates bi-directional lines? Or the one with access to freight and Q class trains? Is that the same phone on Railnet able to call the +81 numbers? Phoning 999 in most (especially rural) incidents won't help as it can be very hard to pinpoint a train. In absolute block areas it is nigh on impossible. Could you tell if you were protected by your own train or not? For your ill passenger do you know where the next suitable station is? Do you know "exactly" where you are? Do you call an ambulance to the immediate next station or the next major one? Can you tell where you are by glancing out of the window?

If the only person able to deal with an emergency situation is the Conductor, why do they put passenger safety notices on all trains, including those conveying a Conductor? Perhaps on those trains, there is no need for emergency door release handles or for passenger emergency pulls, since the diligent Safety Critical Conductor will be constantly patrolling the train.

Because in the event of a serious incident it makes life far easier if people have a vague idea what to do.

"Safety Critical" is the mantra that's always wailed by those with a vested interest. If the only reason there is a need for a Conductor is to deal with emergency situations, then GTR might as well use volunteers from the St John's Ambulance. Need I remind you of the case where the Merseyrail Conductor allowed his train to depart whilst a passenger was still trying to board the train? We all know the outcome and it goes to show that even with a Conductor present, you can't eliminate all risk.

I simply cannot be bothered to (for the second time this week) start trawling the RAIB and NR OIR reports where passengers have been dragged by DOO trains and they've not been spotted. Railway emergencies, especially safety of line can get out of hand very quickly if not properly dealt with. People being dragged by conductor operated trains are far rarer, infact I'm fairly sure the incident you refer to is the last serious incident of that type. Meanwhile in DOO land they keep happening but by nothing more than dumb luck no-one has died, so the safety stats look OK. Eliminating the conductor is not eliminating risk, its introducing it.

Let me finish the same way I did in a post in the earlier thread. I hope it isn't you or someone you love who is the incident that proves DOO isn't as safe as some want to believe.

 

[Don King]

Well a lot of your colleagues have been doing this. Some for 30 years since DOO came in.

And a hell of a lot of them hate it, think it is ridiculous, regularly complain to the unions about it - hence ASLEF's positions, and transfer to non DOO depots and companies when they get the chance.

Many of the DOO depots are effectively driver training schools, they do their 2 or 3 years and head off elsewhere.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

This is probably a waste of breath and will just rile up my blood given my recent conductor duties...



With the incapacitated driver and with those in a position to do anything none the wiser to the incident?



So in a jucntion you could be absolutely sure you were not to step on or near (it will can arc in the right conditions) any 3rd rail equipment, maybe even insulated wiring. And in a situation where you may be near damaged 25kV you know of the danger posed by (or even the location or existence of) the red bond, or the return conductor, even a damaged stanchion earthing the current? Bearing in mind its not unknown for staff to be caught and injured by OHL.



You will, because you have a chance of avoiding a 10mph train, not a 125mph one. Lets say you are on a 4+ track mainline. Do you know which are the fast lines with no chance of avoiding an oncoming train as to the slows? Remembering the order can change.



The smartphone that indicates bi-directional lines? Or the one with access to freight and Q class trains? Is that the same phone on Railnet able to call the +81 numbers? Phoning 999 in most (especially rural) incidents won't help as it can be very hard to pinpoint a train. In absolute block areas it is nigh on impossible. Could you tell if you were protected by your own train or not? For your ill passenger do you know where the next suitable station is? Do you know "exactly" where you are? Do you call an ambulance to the immediate next station or the next major one? Can you tell where you are by glancing out of the window?



Because in the event of a serious incident it makes life far easier if people have a vague idea what to do.



I simply cannot be bothered to (for the second time this week) start trawling the RAIB and NR OIR reports where passengers have been dragged by DOO trains and they've not been spotted. Railway emergencies, especially safety of line can get out of hand very quickly if not properly dealt with. People being dragged by conductor operated trains are far rarer, infact I'm fairly sure the incident you refer to is the last serious incident of that type. Meanwhile in DOO land they keep happening but by nothing more than dumb luck no-one has died, so the safety stats look OK. Eliminating the conductor is not eliminating risk, its introducing it.

Let me finish the same way I did in a post in the earlier thread. I hope it isn't you or someone you love who is the incident that proves DOO isn't as safe as some want to believe.

Thankyou good sir.

 

[The Box Photter]

We gain through technology where it is appropriately used. Not doing the work of other staff on top of our duties, which is nothing to do with technology and all to do with cost cutting.

To follow your argument, your pay has increased because the railway no longer needs to spend money on having another person on the footplate shoveling coal into the firebox, or having hundreds of staff involved in cleaning & preparing the engines. You don't seem to mind NOT taking on the responsibility of putting the fuel in the locomotive, but you feel unable to take on the responsibility of checking passenger's tickets or finishing the Conductor's crossword.

Do you really think that if DOO was as unsafe as your unions make out, that it would be allowed to operate on such a complex and intensively-used franchise as Thameslink? I use it every day and I haven't caught fire or been killed because there's only a driver up front pushing the door close button.

 

[Class 170101]

For those asking about Class 313s and DOO

They do operate in DOO mode with GTR between Kings Cross / Moorgate and Letchworth Garden City via both Hertford North and Welwyn Garden City Routes.

 

[Don King]

You don't seem to mind NOT taking on the responsibility of putting the fuel in the locomotive, but you feel unable to take on the responsibility of checking passenger's tickets or finishing the Conductor's crossword..

I'm not even going to reply sensibly to this comment, as it just shows nothing but either utter ignorance or childish contempt (you choose) for my guard colleagues. And I would love to know how a driver is supposed to check the tickets too...

Come back and debate when you have grown up a little.

 

[highdyke]

This is probably a waste of breath and will just rile up my blood given my recent conductor duties...



With the incapacitated driver and with those in a position to do anything none the wiser to the incident?



So in a jucntion you could be absolutely sure you were not to step on or near (it will can arc in the right conditions) any 3rd rail equipment, maybe even insulated wiring. And in a situation where you may be near damaged 25kV you know of the danger posed by (or even the location or existence of) the red bond, or the return conductor, even a damaged stanchion earthing the current? Bearing in mind its not unknown for staff to be caught and injured by OHL.



You will, because you have a chance of avoiding a 10mph train, not a 125mph one. Lets say you are on a 4+ track mainline. Do you know which are the fast lines with no chance of avoiding an oncoming train as to the slows? Remembering the order can change.



The smartphone that indicates bi-directional lines? Or the one with access to freight and Q class trains? Is that the same phone on Railnet able to call the +81 numbers? Phoning 999 in most (especially rural) incidents won't help as it can be very hard to pinpoint a train. In absolute block areas it is nigh on impossible. Could you tell if you were protected by your own train or not? For your ill passenger do you know where the next suitable station is? Do you know "exactly" where you are? Do you call an ambulance to the immediate next station or the next major one? Can you tell where you are by glancing out of the window?



Because in the event of a serious incident it makes life far easier if people have a vague idea what to do.



I simply cannot be bothered to (for the second time this week) start trawling the RAIB and NR OIR reports where passengers have been dragged by DOO trains and they've not been spotted. Railway emergencies, especially safety of line can get out of hand very quickly if not properly dealt with. People being dragged by conductor operated trains are far rarer, infact I'm fairly sure the incident you refer to is the last serious incident of that type. Meanwhile in DOO land they keep happening but by nothing more than dumb luck no-one has died, so the safety stats look OK. Eliminating the conductor is not eliminating risk, its introducing it.

Let me finish the same way I did in a post in the earlier thread. I hope it isn't you or someone you love who is the incident that proves DOO isn't as safe as some want to believe.

So why can't a passenger just pull an emergency chord and connect to a control centre, or fit technology that detects when a train has derailed and which vehicle? Or the retail staff use their GSM-R phone?

If the driver is incapacitated, and emergency alarm already sounds in the controlling box.

 

[The Box Photter]

How about as you know so much about the job. Apply, Train, Gain experience and knowledge of the job then come back to me. Somehow I just cannot see that happening.

No thanks, I like my current job. In fact I changed jobs 12 years ago because I didn't like the one I was doing, took a pay cut initially, but now I'm earning much more than I was, with a lot less stress and more job satisfaction.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

So why can't a passenger just pull an emergency chord and connect to a control centre, or fit technology that detects when a train has derailed and which vehicle?

If the driver is incapacitated, and emergency alarm already sounds in the controlling box.

Thats if the GSM-R is working which at least up here tends to be pretty glitchy.
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No thanks, I like my current job. In fact I changed jobs 12 years ago because I didn't like the one I was doing, took a pay cut initially, but now I'm earning much more than I was, with a lot less stress and more job satisfaction.

Good then stop trying to make an argument about something that you have absolutely no clue about (apart from what you have read in the Daily mail)