In the parts of LM I use it's unusual not to see the Guard during a journey.
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Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal
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In the parts of LM I use it's unusual not to see the Guard during a journey.
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Bromley boy
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What existing guards (and ticket office staff*) need to be doing is not only doing their jobs but also being seen to be doing them. Thus emphasising to the travelling public the "friendly face on the train", customer service and security benefits of having a second person on board.
*sadly I recently had yet another very poor encounter with a ticket office seller at my own TOC. At a busy time of day I had to bang on the window to get someone to appear. The staff member was visibly irritated that I had asked for assistance and then proceeded to deliver true "service with a snarl". This is the kind of job that will be increasingly under threat in the near future and they are not helping themselves.
99% of the time. But when something goes wrong that second safety-trained staff member can be vital.
The unfortunate reality is that commuters couldn't care less and the non-commuters want someone with the soft skills - they probably see door opening, if they think about it all, as a "demarcation dispute". RMT are never going to persuade them that it's all about safety, simply because our railways are seen as extremely safe, regardless of the method of dispatch.
Nor is safety a simple argument, in any case, despite what some would like. And yes there is a price on life - the country couldn't function if everything had to be 100% safe.
The real situation is that all jobs these days are under constant review to see if they add sufficient value to justify the cost. I can understand why guards and RMT don't want to give up the safety critical element, and it's not about safety, it's about IR leverage. Of course they don't want to admit this, just like management won't be candid about why they want changes. It makes for an odd situation whereby all the press releases from both sides skip around the real issues and instead argue about safety.
Nor is safety a simple argument, in any case, despite what some would like. And yes there is a price on life - the country couldn't function if everything had to be 100% safe.
The real situation is that all jobs these days are under constant review to see if they add sufficient value to justify the cost. I can understand why guards and RMT don't want to give up the safety critical element, and it's not about safety, it's about IR leverage. Of course they don't want to admit this, just like management won't be candid about why they want changes. It makes for an odd situation whereby all the press releases from both sides skip around the real issues and instead argue about safety.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Are they required to carry a machine and sell tickets as part of their role? If so, why are they not being disciplined for failing to do so?
It always amazes me how many commercial guards don't do a key part of their role.
(Mind you as SN is near enough all PF maybe this particular piece of rebellion is a good thing)
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I guess you're in the Brum area? I think there is rather a cultural difference between ex-NSE and ex-Regional Railways, with a general view in the former that revenue is not important/will be done by barrier staff but in the latter that it is a key part of the role which is always done unless there is a really key reason not to.
And yet going northbound from euston in a morning about 1/2 times a week i always see them and have my ticket checked
Red Dragon
Member
Much to my surprise, having travelled from Yorkshire I find the trains running normally from Vauxhall to Richmond.
I have used this service over the past 10 years and this is the first time I have ever seen the guard walk through the train - he announced he was doing this too, instead of sitting in the cab at the centre.
That’s much better.
I have used this service over the past 10 years and this is the first time I have ever seen the guard walk through the train - he announced he was doing this too, instead of sitting in the cab at the centre.
That’s much better.
correct me if im wrong, they have 2 types of guards on SWR..... the revenue ones with a ticket machine and the old school ones who just stay in the middle or rear cab.
If it was a 455/456 then guards have to stay in the cab for most of the time to operate the doors.
Red Dragon
Member
Thanks I didn’t appreciate that. This was the Waterloo to Windsor and Eaton Riverside which I often use, but have never seen a guard or revenue person before.
He was very friendly too.
He was very friendly too.
theyve had nearly 40 years to install door operating panels in other parts of the train, but have failed.!
tsr
Established Member
They have on SWR (formerly SWT) units - quite some time ago. This is unlike Southern 455s, which conductors can only work from the cab vestibule panels. However, unfortunately some guards (equally with other traction and TOCs) see no need to walk through, which ruins job prospects, customer service and passenger safety alike.
Oh indeed. We always pay.
I think the mumbling within the company is that drivers get whatever they want, and other staff (ticket office, platform, gateline/revenue) have little to no protection and may in fact suffer as a consequence of this deal.
TL and GN drivers will be seen as 'guilty by association' by some. That's not right, but I can see why it might be the case.
Malcolmffc
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The harsh truth is that the drivers do a much more important (and, for now, irreplaceable) job.
This. Probably get shot for saying it but it’s the truth.
Of course, and I don't think anyone can or would dispute that. But you can see why other staff feel they're always going to suffer if all the wage bill is directed to the drivers.
It's also why I am sure the wheels are being set in motion to design out drivers one day, and starting gradually by allowing technology to simplify their work - which will then simplify training - which in turn make them more expendable. Not an overnight task, obviously, and possibly not something I'll see in my lifetime - but I am sure that while many will want a driver up front, it doesn't mean that in 20-30 years from now they'll be on £100k+!
Happening in a lot of other roles, all part of the massive de-skilling process that's currently afoot, so only a matter of time before it hits the driving grades.
De-skiling has already hit us.
Fortunately it's not going to happen as quick as many other industries.. so any driver today (or even those going through training) are likely to be safe.
But I do fear for the future.
That's a bit cryptic for we on the outside. Could you expand please?
Not as much as other roles.
It's difficult to comment on other roles as I'm not familiar with all of them but I'm hesitant to agree here. Some roles are de skilled easier than others and some roles are already so basic that you couldn't de skill, as the next step is basically removing them all together.
I think we have more skills to remove than some other roles so the process is taking longer. The ultimate goal of automated trains is very much far in the future so I would agree that we are protected for the immediate future.
Apologies as this will be a quick reply as its a bit off topic for the thread but..
I rarely make a manual announcement any more. I tap 4 digits into the PIS and the machine does the rest. The latest advancement in that is TOC control can make direct announcements to passengers, totally circumventing the Driver.
hooverboy
On Moderation
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and where are the risk assessments done?. is it really necessary to have two operatives(driver and guard) on a parry people mover for instance?.I would wager that on most branch lines, the average train is maybe 25-50 people,and in the event of an emergency the driver should be quite capable of coping by themselves.a random inspector/revenue enforcemet officer on the line is sufficient,not one per train.
for high capacity commuter trains,and more risky environments(ie live third rail) then an extra marshall I think is warranted.
granted the scenarios are likely to be different...in rural places it will mostly be stray sheep/cows/deer on the line,and in cities it will be drunken revellers in the main.
Absolutely.
Without wanting to de-rail (pun intended) the thread, I'll leave it at that.
Mintona
Established Member
The Aslef Facebook page is quite a place at the moment 
Of all examples to give..
How about the slow but evident 'watering down' of the rule book by simply having each section slowly read 'Refer to TOC instructions' meaning the need for rule book knowledge is being made 'redundant' instead, we're calling someone with a PDF in control which reads 'Remains in service until end of journies' anyway regardless of the fault. The rulebook is written in blood and slowly erased for profit - just look at the rules surrounding GSM-R and how trains can run without one at all. All because of its terrible reliability and responsibility for high cancellations. Lessons learned in history are being forgotten.
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