Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[Bletchleyite]

Apologies as this will be a quick reply as its a bit off topic for the thread but..

I rarely make a manual announcement any more. I tap 4 digits into the PIS and the machine does the rest. The latest advancement in that is TOC control can make direct announcements to passengers, totally circumventing the Driver.

Hamburg U-Bahn had the ability to do that by 1999. We're always behind on that kind of stuff...

 

[ComUtoR]

Of all examples to give..

Because it was the quickest and most easily understood example I thought of and I didn't want to digress from the thread.

 

[Carlisle]

theyve had nearly 40 years to install door operating panels in other parts of the train, but have failed.!

BR didn’t bother installing extra door operating panels on class 455s as it was always their long term intention they’d virtually all end up DOO, however SWT did install them after it scrapped its DOO plans in the late 1990s

 

[Bromley boy]

De-skiling has already hit us.

From what most people have said to me the biggest de-skilling of the driver role so far has been the traction course being thinned out. The current course at my TOC is a shadow of what it was a few years ago and instructors often say they are surprised how little is now taught.

This makes sense of course - there's very little requirement for drivers to fault find these days. On our older traction if you get a fault light you simply phone maintenance from the GSMR, they interrogate the unit and tell you what the fault is and where it's located. Modern traction equipped with TMS automatically tells you about the fault and where it's located.

Apart from that, I could have been driving the older traction I sign on the same routes with the same signalling any time in the last 25 years or so. I suspect the big sea change will come progressively when we see driver advisory systems and in cab signalling implemented, reducing the requirement for route knowledge, although this is still quite some way off for most.

 

[physics34]

BR didn’t bother installing extra door operating panels on class 455s as it was always their long term intention they’d virtually all end up DOO, however SWT did install them after it scrapped its DOO plans in the late 1990s

Ah ok.. thats news to me

 

[coppercapped]

Hamburg U-Bahn had the ability to do that by 1999. We're always behind on that kind of stuff...

Broadcasts could be made direct from Control offices to the passengers on DB InterCity trains at least 15 years before that. I remember being very impressed by such an announcement being made when I was on an InterCity between Ulm and Augsburg in the mid-1980s. The quality wasn't great - a lot of background noise - but it was understandable.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Broadcasts could be made direct from Control offices to the passengers on DB InterCity trains at least 15 years before that. I remember being very impressed by such an announcement being made when I was on an InterCity between Ulm and Augsburg in the mid-1980s. The quality wasn't great - a lot of background noise - but it was understandable.

beeeeep....Guten Tag, hier ist die Leitstelle der U-Bahn...

I actually think this should be mandatory long-term. In disruption it would be excellent for TOC control to be able to speak to everyone direct, be they be on a train or a station. It'd be a good addition on buses, too, I'm sort of surprised iBus didn't allow for it, though I suppose that's now old tech.

I notice on Southern that Control appear to be able to put scrolly messages on the on-board PIS which is quite good.

 

[Goldfish62]

beeeeep....Guten Tag, hier ist die Leitstelle der U-Bahn...

I actually think this should be mandatory long-term. In disruption it would be excellent for TOC control to be able to speak to everyone direct, be they be on a train or a station. It'd be a good addition on buses, too, I'm sort of surprised iBus didn't allow for it, though I suppose that's now old tech.

I notice on Southern that Control appear to be able to put scrolly messages on the on-board PIS which is quite good.

It is available on iBus, but not used much.

 

[Marklund]

Broadcasts could be made direct from Control offices to the passengers on DB InterCity trains at least 15 years before that. I remember being very impressed by such an announcement being made when I was on an InterCity between Ulm and Augsburg in the mid-1980s. The quality wasn't great - a lot of background noise - but it was understandable.

Meah, Burt Lancaster could do that in the Cassandra Crossing in 1976!

 

[tsr]

I notice on Southern that Control appear to be able to put scrolly messages on the on-board PIS which is quite good.

Indeed they can. Known as RT (Real Time) PIS. However, it isn’t used quite as much as it was a couple of months ago, as it turns out there is a bug which means that broadcasting text-based messages to trains can result in the affected services playing the preceding automatic PIS announcement on a repeated loop for several minutes - something which annoys the passengers and distracts the train crew.

This can also cause the system to freeze up completely, but that is rarer.

The RT-PIS system can accept ad-hoc messages but most messages are planned somewhat in advance, to be triggered by the train passing specific locations, usually near stations.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've seen that bug and it was indeed annoying! Didn't know that was the cause though.

 

[infobleep]

Hamburg U-Bahn had the ability to do that by 1999. We're always behind on that kind of stuff...

What about the rest of the German railways, which dwarfs the Hamburg railway in size. Do they all have the same ability or are they behind on that kind of stuff?

 

[Bald Rick]

It's been possible here since the 80s in areas with cab secure radio. I know of at least one location where the staff on shift would make announcements to the train they knew their relief was on, ordering fish and chips on the way in!

 

[Bromley boy]

It's been possible here since the 80s in areas with cab secure radio. I know of at least one location where the staff on shift would make announcements to the train they knew their relief was on, ordering fish and chips on the way in!

I was aware the signaller could address the entire train, via GSMR interlinking with the PA, in the event of driver incapacitation.

I certainly didn’t realise the TOC had the same ability.

 

[coppercapped]

What about the rest of the German railways, which dwarfs the Hamburg railway in size. Do they all have the same ability or are they behind on that kind of stuff?

I answered this over two hours before your post.

 

[greyman42]

So in a nut shell, what deal have the drivers accepted?

 

[pemma]

So in a nut shell, what deal have the drivers accepted?

Reportedly increase in pay from £38,000 to £51,000 and drivers will work DOO services provided there's a second person on board even if the second person isn't a guard. I'm not sure if any exceptional circumstances apply to the second person clause.

 

[physics34]

So in a nut shell, what deal have the drivers accepted?

28 5% payrise over 5 years
24 weeks notice to leave the job
Technlogy to be used for route learning
OBS on every train that previously had a guard (except on the Brighton main line), unless the OBS is delayed on another train or very short notice sickness (2hours);
and a couple of other bits snd pieces

 

[jon0844]

28 5% payrise over 5 years
24 weeks notice to leave the job
Technlogy to be used for route learning
OBS on every train that previously had a guard (except on the Brighton main line), unless the OBS is delayed on another train or very short notice sickness (2hours);
and a couple of other bits snd pieces

I believe it's over the next 4 years with one year backpay, from October 2016, payable in one lump sum next month?

Not a bad Christmas present, and it makes me wonder if this will have the knock on effect of drivers not rushing to do any rest day working that causes cancellations?

 

[tsr]

The supposedly exceptional circumstances of an OBS not being provided are in fact the main and overwhelming majority of the reasons they don’t make it to their trains.

The Brighton Mainline exclusion is very interesting because it will likely mean there are smaller stations where, at certain times of day, passengers will now never see any member of staff whilst travelling, whereas a significant number of services used to have conductors. Replacing these staff with OBSs will now no longer be the norm; instead, there will only be a driver unless “operationally convenient” for Southern to deploy someone.

The exact extent of this DOO operation means that OBSs may eventually not operate at all once trains have joined the mainline, which means remarkably short journeys for some of them.

Lastly, an OBS with PTS and evacuation training is actually unlikely to be able to use it, because so far as I know, they will not be briefed on routes they operate on. A large part of the point of track workers having briefings before starting work, and train crew having route knowledge, is that they can cope with the specifics of their route if something untoward happens, so they know the boundaries of what is reasonably safe.

Plenty of holes in the agreement!

 

[HowardGWR]

"Plenty of holes in the agreement!"

I suspect there will be no holes in the payment of wages increases.

Does the BML have ticket barriers at every station? If so, one presumes that is the reason for not needing an OBS on that stretch.

 

[Robertj21a]

28 5% payrise over 5 years
24 weeks notice to leave the job
Technlogy to be used for route learning
OBS on every train that previously had a guard (except on the Brighton main line), unless the OBS is delayed on another train or very short notice sickness (2hours);
and a couple of other bits snd pieces

That seems little different to what was rejected by a significant number last time !. Is the BML exception just a simple recognition that Thameslink work DOO on the same route ?

 

[bramling]

That seems little different to what was rejected by a significant number last time !. Is the BML exception just a simple recognition that Thameslink work DOO on the same route ?

Surely it's more to do with the fact that the Brighton line has had, in part, DOO for a couple of decades now, and once something's in it's hard to take it out.

 

[tsr]

Does the BML have ticket barriers at every station? If so, one presumes that is the reason for not needing an OBS on that stretch.

Nope, there are many stations with no staff or revenue presence. Gateline staff rarely have any say on operational matters anyway. In terms of different tools and motivation to help passengers, it seems the grade is not well-invested-in at Southern.

 

[physics34]

Surely it's more to do with the fact that the Brighton line has had, in part, DOO for a couple of decades now, and once something's in it's hard to take it out.

Yeh but basically a Vic to Eastbourne sevice can now run DOO to wivelsfield

 

[sarahj]

The supposedly exceptional circumstances of an OBS not being provided are in fact the main and overwhelming majority of the reasons they don’t make it to their trains.

The Brighton Mainline exclusion is very interesting because it will likely mean there are smaller stations where, at certain times of day, passengers will now never see any member of staff whilst travelling, whereas a significant number of services used to have conductors. Replacing these staff with OBSs will now no longer be the norm; instead, there will only be a driver unless “operationally convenient” for Southern to deploy someone.

The exact extent of this DOO operation means that OBSs may eventually not operate at all once trains have joined the mainline, which means remarkably short journeys for some of them.

Lastly, an OBS with PTS and evacuation training is actually unlikely to be able to use it, because so far as I know, they will not be briefed on routes they operate on. A large part of the point of track workers having briefings before starting work, and train crew having route knowledge, is that they can cope with the specifics of their route if something untoward happens, so they know the boundaries of what is reasonably safe.

Plenty of holes in the agreement!

So many holes. I thought that there might be at least wait 1-2 mins for a late OBS, but nope, just go.
Other notes. 24 weeks notice to leave. Must accept use of new tech. You could be sly with that one. Get drivers to use a ramp, mmmmm. Oh right, put some LED's on it, it's new tech, HA!!!!
The OBS role is getting even more confusing. At the start, it was, nothing to do with the doors, then it was, be at the doors, but stand on the other side. Then it was key on, look for disabled folks, key off. Nothing to do with dispatch. However, after the East Croydon incident where someone fell between the train and the platform and only the OBS (an ex conductor) spotted them , not the p staff and not the driver, and Southern said words to the effect that 'our fully trained OBS's are of course on the look out for these issues'. mmmmm.
And a new one where a person in the wheelchair, going to a disability access meeting, was unable to board a train at Seaford due to no OBS or station staff. they had to wait half an hour for the nexdt one, a 313 with a guard. Live tweeted the whole thing. Response: Well we do provide booked assistance (haha), oh and if we had need a have a guard for the first service, then due to not having one, it would have been cancelled. forgetting of course, that for the wheelchair punter, it was in effect cancelled, as they were not able to board.
I'd also like to point out that in my 10 years on the railway I think I can count on one hand where a train was delayed as I was late to it, and about 80% I was also with the driver who was late as well.
Fun times.

 

[Robertj21a]

Thanks, Sarah, I always like to hear what actually happens in the various real-life situations.

 

[XDM]

ASLEF executive & Southern deserve a terrific pat on the back for the painstaking months they have spent negotiating. It must have been a very hard time for all of them. Well done. It is a deal which has satisfied most drivers & will satisfy almost all when the rewards roll in & the few 'worriers' realise the driving world is not much different.
It is a great day for the passengers, not only on Southern but throughout the railway eventually, because trains will run when otherwise they would have been cancelled for lack of a 'guard', & travellers, including hospital appointees & the old & young will no longer be left on cold windswept platforms.
The disabled will benefit too as most of their trips are to & from from staffed stations so if no guard/OBS turns up their train will still run.
Even former guards will gain because, if they like people, they will spend their time face to face with the public & not stepping down onto cold platforms in the rain & snow.
If they hate people, & some of the frequent anti DOO posters clearly despise passengers from their postings, they should be in a non person job like maintenance or cleaning.
Southern drivers & their reps have proved they are a wise & helpful lot. Well done to them & do not feel the tiniest bit guilty. You are not.

 

[BestWestern]

Hardly the 'victory' the government bullies were hoping for. Throughout this pointless attack on the railway, those who work on it and those who travel on it, it has become increasingly apparent that the DfT's intention of mass culls and a staffless railway was completely at odds with what is needed in today's accessible society, indeed at odds with the very legislation that supports that society, and was little more than a few thugs in suits p***ing into the wind, increasingly desperate as victory slid further away from them. Having been thwarted again and again by the continual strength of a workforce determined not to give in to the abhorent bullying and intimidation being thrown at them, let's hope the thick skulls and fat wallets of those behind this circus haven't prevented a cautionary lesson being learned. It should never be lost that the enormous compromise they have ended up with is a world away from what they were intending - and so arrogantly assumed they would swiftly obtain. The brothers and sisters of the frontline grades at Southern deserve the utmost respect of workers up and down the land for reminding those in the corridors of power that respect for the nation's workforce remains an obligation.

Perhaps the rest of the industry can at least hope that the sick joke that is Southern and their farcical OBS pantomime might put an end to any serious consideration to start the whole ridiculous show again in any future franchises. Hopefully SWR will get the idea rather more quickly than Charlie the Clown and the DfT's rabble of witless morons.

 

[Robertj21a]

From what others have been saying I rather thought that it was Southern that had largely achieved what they set out to do originally. Isn't the deal now accepted little different to what was turned down so definitively last time ?