Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[al78]

Indeed there are many many people on here who make posts on this forum about railway roles they have no clue about and have never done yet try to manipulate things to their ideology.

Welcome to human nature, where feeling and emotion over-ride logic and evidence.

 

[Dave1987]

Yes, sadly that does seem to be a current problem, but should be something a good union would help alleviate....

In general I was referring to the grand sweep rather than the specifics. There are obviously efficiencies which are simply exploiting workers harder, but it is the good ones, e.g. replacing 1000s of dockers with a couple of crane drivers, which really make differences.

Except when you have a Government that wants to eradicate unions or at least nullify them then the problem will only get worse. In the modern day world employees have to be able to disrupt the company in some way by strike action or other means for management to take any notice. Like I have said time and time again management have to sell change for change to be embraced, not rule with an iron fist. If you enforce change without winning hearts and minds of employees then you kill morale. A happy workforce will work hard for the manager they are under. It's very unfortunate that the OBS are unlikely to have any union representation which puts the whole grade at a massive disadvantage before the whole image of the grade is taken into account. But the RMT are under no obligation to represent them. Being one of the only non management grades not to have union representation could be a problem in the future for them.

 

[OxtedSignaller]

Except when you have a Government that wants to eradicate unions or at least nullify them then the problem will only get worse. In the modern day world employees have to be able to disrupt the company in some way by strike action or other means for management to take any notice. Like I have said time and time again management have to sell change for change to be embraced, not rule with an iron fist. If you enforce change without winning hearts and minds of employees then you kill morale. A happy workforce will work hard for the manager they are under. It's very unfortunate that the OBS are unlikely to have any union representation which puts the whole grade at a massive disadvantage before the whole image of the grade is taken into account. But the RMT are under no obligation to represent them. Being one of the only non management grades not to have union representation could be a problem in the future for them.

That is the crux of the problem. The RMT is happy to represent every other grade such as the equivalent role on Scotrail, Southeastern and every RPI in the country on DOO lines yet when it comes to Southern they are happy to sell out. I applaud the RMT for the effort they put into saving the guard, but unfortunately the government, company and even some of the general public were against it which meant it was not a battle that was going to be won. Now they don’t seem to be able to give in, and the RMT seems to be driven by no disrespect the old school who are supposedly against DOO even though they have agreed to it in past years and want a guard and driver on every single train whatever the consequences and won’t accept anything different! It’s not the members fault end of the day.

 

[pompeyfan]

I can completely understand the reluctance for the RMT to accept and recognise the role of the OBS.

As soon as they admit defeat on Southern, they have to back down on all the other TOCs.

When ASLEF agreed to 12 car operation of DOO on FCC, the document appeared out of nowhere to bully Southern drivers who didn’t want to drive 12 car 377s back into work. If RMT accept the role on Southern, they’ll be expected to accept the role on all other TOCs, people might dislike the whole RMT set up but they’re very much between a rock and a hard place.

 

[Carlisle]

I can completely understand the reluctance for the RMT to accept and recognise the role of the OBS.

As soon as they admit defeat on Southern, they have to back down on all the other TOCs.

When ASLEF agreed to 12 car operation of DOO on FCC, the document appeared out of nowhere to bully Southern drivers who didn’t want to drive 12 car 377s back into work. If RMT accept the role on Southern, they’ll be expected to accept the role on all other TOCs, people might dislike the whole RMT set up but they’re very much between a rock and a hard place.

Ok, so if the RMT soon agree a new role similar to the Strathclyde ticket examiners for Merseyrail guards which others on here are suggesting is the most likley scenario , how will that effect their other DOO disputes ?

 

[pompeyfan]

Ok, so if the RMT soon agree a new role similar to the Strathclyde ticket examiners for Merseyrail guards which others on here are suggesting is the most likley scenario , how will that effect their other DOO disputes ?

That is a good point, although I’d imagine the difference is that Merseyrail want true DOO, so any concession on that is a victory for the RMT.

 

[Robertj21a]

Except when you have a Government that wants to eradicate unions or at least nullify them then the problem will only get worse. In the modern day world employees have to be able to disrupt the company in some way by strike action or other means for management to take any notice. Like I have said time and time again management have to sell change for change to be embraced, not rule with an iron fist. If you enforce change without winning hearts and minds of employees then you kill morale. A happy workforce will work hard for the manager they are under. It's very unfortunate that the OBS are unlikely to have any union representation which puts the whole grade at a massive disadvantage before the whole image of the grade is taken into account. But the RMT are under no obligation to represent them. Being one of the only non management grades not to have union representation could be a problem in the future for them.

You're making a bit of an assumption that many OBS want to join the RMT, or indeed any union. Given that these are people who have often come from non-rail jobs they are quite likely to be far less interested in union membership. I would also doubt that employees in the Southern area are very pro-union in the first place ! Is there some clear evidence that they are desperate to join a union ?

 

[Bromley boy]

You're making a bit of an assumption that many OBS want to join the RMT, or indeed any union. Given that these are people who have often come from non-rail jobs they are quite likely to be far less interested in union membership. I would also doubt that employees in the Southern area are very pro-union in the first place ! Is there some clear evidence that they are desperate to join a union ?

You’ll find that nobody who knows what they’re talking about - ie anybody who has ever spent any time in an operational role on the railway - doubts the value of collective representation when working in that environment. That includes people joining from outside the industry, as I did myself.

It’s apparent that you’re very anti union, but you should keep in mind that unions have an essential role to perform in industries where there is little direct dialogue between managers and employees, in terms of agreeing rostering practices, enabling employees’ concerns to be aired to the company, and so forth.

Most crucially, albeit perhaps less relevant to non safety critical OBSs, they also provide representation (both from an employment and criminal law perspective) should something go wrong.

Union membership isn’t only about going on strike, despite the highly publicised recent disputes.

 

[Robertj21a]

You’ll find that nobody who knows what they’re talking about - ie anybody who has ever spent any time in an operational role on the railway - doubts the value of collective representation when working in that environment. That includes people joining from outside the industry, as I did myself.

It’s apparent that you’re very anti union, but you should keep in mind that unions have an essential role to perform in industries where there is little direct dialogue between managers and employees, in terms of agreeing rostering practices, enabling employees’ concerns to be aired to the company, and so forth.

Most crucially, albeit perhaps less relevant to non safety critical OBSs, they also provide representation (both from an employment and criminal law perspective) should something go wrong.

Union membership isn’t only about going on strike, despite the highly publicised recent disputes.

I'm well aware of what good unions can do, but thank you all the same. Are you in a position to answer the question I asked ?

 

[Bromley boy]

I'm well aware of what good unions can do, but thank you all the same.

Are you really? I somehow doubt you think trade unions can ever do any good at all.

I must admit I was hoping for a more constructive response but equally not surprised to receive a sarcastic answer.

Are you in a position to answer the question I asked ?

If you read my previous post in its entirety you’ll find it answers your question about the reasons why trade union membership on the railway is generally a good idea, even for new entrants to the industry.

 

[Robertj21a]

Are you really? I somehow doubt you think trade unions can ever do any good at all.

I must admit I was hoping for a more constructive response but equally not surprised to receive a sarcastic answer.



If you read my previous post in its entirety you’ll find it answers your question about the reasons why trade union membership on the railway is generally a good idea, even for new entrants to the industry.

If you read my post you would have seen that I asked 'Is there some clear evidence that they are desperate to join a union'. I fully understand that existing rail staff appreciate the genuine benefits that good unions [i.e ASLEF] can achieve - but these recruits aren't generally from a rail background and may wish to avoid joining, say, the RMT - or any union at all.

 

[Eccles1983]

If you read my post you would have seen that I asked 'Is there some clear evidence that they are desperate to join a union'. I fully understand that existing rail staff appreciate the genuine benefits that good unions [i.e ASLEF] can achieve - but these recruits aren't generally from a rail background and may wish to avoid joining, say, the RMT - or any union at all.

The amount of railway staff not in a union is very small. Particually in traincrew.

In fact, I know of one person not unionised in my depot. Of over 500.

No one is forcing them to join. And there is hundreds of off the street staff.

Simply put you are talking nonsense from a position of ignorance, tainted by a strange anti union stance.

 

[Bromley boy]

If you read my post you would have seen that I asked 'Is there some clear evidence that they are desperate to join a union'. I fully understand that existing rail staff appreciate the genuine benefits that good unions [i.e ASLEF] can achieve - but these recruits aren't generally from a rail background and may wish to avoid joining, say, the RMT - or any union at all.

Yes and as I’ve said the reasons why operational staff would wish to join a union* are obvious and are clearly laid out in my previous posting. I joined the industry myself from a white collar professional background (where I don’t think I encountered a single trade union member). The reasons for joining were soon perfectly obvious to me. By the same token, in my current employment, I’ve yet to encounter a traincrew member who isn’t in a union.

The “clear evidence” is that it’s therefore hardly a great leap to see that OBS new joiners would also wish to avail themselves of those benefits. Sadly there isn’t a union for them to join at this stage because the RMT refuses to recognise them (and there are only really two unions worth joining on the railway, one of which only represents drivers).

I’m not sure how I can explain the point I’m making (and which @Dave1987 was making) any more clearly.

*the RMT have a long and successful history, so by that definition are “good” by most measures: albeit there are issues with their current approach as many of us have acknowledged on this thread.

 

[pompeyfan]

I know ATCU are seen as Micky mouse, but I genuinely think they’d be a good fit for OBS’ while the RMT aren’t interested. They may well not have collective bargaining yet, but get enough members behind them and they could easily compete in my opinion.

 

[The Ham]

I know ATCU are seen as Micky mouse, but I genuinely think they’d be a good fit for OBS’ while the RMT aren’t interested. They may well not have collective bargaining yet, but get enough members behind them and they could easily compete in my opinion.

I would suggest that the reason why there's only two good unions is that once a union becomes dominant in an area they tend to rise to the top with very few joining the others. As such, given a clear gap in the market and a limited geographic spread (i.e. RMT won't represent them and they are mostly limited to one TOC) I would be included to agree that ATUC could be a good fit for the OBS'. Even if only 10% of them join that's probably enough for the TOC to take them seriously (even if it doesn't have the same impact if they threaten to strike) and give their members many of the benefits (such as assistance on HR matters) that would benefit them.

It could also, if there were reasonable numbers, mean that those who didn't want to join the RMT could be more inclined to join then they are at present.

 

[Robertj21a]

Yes and as I’ve said the reasons why operational staff would wish to join a union* are obvious and are clearly laid out in my previous posting. I joined the industry myself from a white collar professional background (where I don’t think I encountered a single trade union member). The reasons for joining were soon perfectly obvious to me. By the same token, in my current employment, I’ve yet to encounter a traincrew member who isn’t in a union.

The “clear evidence” is that it’s therefore hardly a great leap to see that OBS new joiners would also wish to avail themselves of those benefits. Sadly there isn’t a union for them to join at this stage because the RMT refuses to recognise them (and there are only really two unions worth joining on the railway, one of which only represents drivers).

I’m not sure how I can explain the point I’m making (and which @Dave1987 was making) any more clearly.

*the RMT have a long and successful history, so by that definition are “good” by most measures: albeit there are issues with their current approach as many of us have acknowledged on this thread.

I've always understood the points that you, and Dave1987, have been making. You've both explained your views clearly and, despite what you appear to think, I can see the benefits of being a member of a good union when you're in a heavily unionised organisation. To me, at present (post-Bob C), the RMT has rather lost the plot and is a rather unprofessional organisation, ripe for fresh blood to take over the key roles [but that issue as been done to death already].
My point on OBS simply related to whether there was clear evidence of any great desire from them to join any union.

 

[whhistle]

...even some of the general public were against it.

That's because of the way it was marketed by the Unions though.

I've heard some people suggesting that there would literally be just the driver on board. Maybe I'm wrong, but I understood the guard would become an On Board Service member of staff, who would concentrate on customers rather than open/close the doors, which would then become the drivers responsibiilty.

And thus, this whole "driver only" name is considerably mis-leading.

As I say, maybe I haven't understood what's happening here.

 

[infobleep]

Firstly, would that be legal if OBSs are not in dispute?

Secondly, why would OBSs strike in support of their ultimate dismissal?

Surely an OBS would become a guard unless your saying all OBSs are not good enough to become a guard via training?

 

[infobleep]

I am not convinced that is true. What is now happening is that in many workplaces there is an expectation that you will do more hours than you are contracted for with out additional pay, making production more efficient in many cases actually involves cutting corners and hoping that nothing goes wrong.

As regards Souterh I assume at some point the RMT will call another strike but they have no impact these days.

They most certainly do have an impact. Naming on any trains that use guards. The trains to Guildford don't run for example.

 

[infobleep]

in all fairness Im not really suprised. The union cant really take this particular fight any further. Grayling got his way and has starved the staff out of their HP cars (as he so well put it) and with nothing to lose Go merely plodded on with their contractual obligations and did what the DfT told them to do.

In a similar analogy look what happened when buses went DOO, putting all the bus conductors out of work. The initial arguements of safety, lost revenue and extended journey times soon faded as the general public put up with the extended journey times, safety wasnt compromised on a daily basis however fares didnt go down with the apparent cost savings and no doubt southern, Gat Ex and Thameslink fares haven't gone down either. If anything the combined cost of the admittedly now dispensable OBS and massively paid off driver is now higher, however I wouldnt be suprised to see natural wastage kick in here and the OBS dwindle in numbers. Only then will Grayling get his cost savings he so desperately seeks.

best plan now for the union is to regroup, and take the war into a mutually beficial direction. Time look at the whole situation and come up with a plan that secures the best for not only its members, but for everyone in the conductor/train manager/OBS role. DOO is coming, its only a matter of time. The likes of the southern franchise will only serve to prove it works to the people that want it to work. Works of course doesnt mean its the correct way but when MPs are looking for political favour then what works to gain votes is all that matters plus government knows the union will cave in eventually and that by then the offer will be substantially less than what was originally tabled - and besides, there are other ways a company can be brought to its knees than by striking. The battle may be lost, but the war is far from over

A colleague at work told me that when the buses for rise of conductors, the level of vandalism went up. This then necessitates CCTV cameras being installed.

Perhaps people pwfw money to be spent on machines than humans.

 

[Astradyne]

A colleague at work told me that when the buses for rise of conductors, the level of vandalism went up. This then necessitates CCTV cameras being installed.

Perhaps people pwfw money to be spent on machines than humans.

But trains already have CCTV ... so assuming on that basis you are supporting one-person operation!

 

[Robertj21a]

A colleague at work told me that when the buses for rise of conductors, the level of vandalism went up. This then necessitates CCTV cameras being installed.

Perhaps people pwfw money to be spent on machines than humans.

Cctv on buses is of particular use in the event of accidents or passenger disputes. Graffiti wasn't the primary reason for installation.

 

[John R]

They probably prefer driver only operated buses if the alternative is higher fares to cover the presence of a conductor.

 

[SamYeager]

A colleague at work told me that when the buses for rise of conductors, the level of vandalism went up. This then necessitates CCTV cameras being installed.

Perhaps people pwfw money to be spent on machines than humans.

CCTV doesn't require a pension nor indeed employer NI so it's still a significant financial saving even after accounting for the installation and maintenance costs of CCTV. Anyway, since there will still be staff on the train apart from the driver the issue of vandalism is a red herring.

 

[kw12]

Surely an OBS would become a guard unless your saying all OBSs are not good enough to become a guard via training?

Many of the OBS are former guards and are working from depots that no longer have any jobs for guards. An OBS at one of these locations who wishes to become (or return to being) a guard would need to do that elsewhere.

 

[kw12]

They most certainly do have an impact. Naming on any trains that use guards. The trains to Guildford don't run for example.

Most trains that use guards have continued to run on strike days. For example there has generally been a full service on the Uckfield line, even though all the trains on this line use guards.

 

[furnessvale]

Surely an OBS would become a guard unless your saying all OBSs are not good enough to become a guard via training?

Many of the OBS are former guards and are working from depots that no longer have any jobs for guards. An OBS at one of these locations who wishes to become (or return to being) a guard would need to do that elsewhere.

I am making no comment as to the abilities of OBSs.

It is possible that OBSs would become guards but that would be at the discretion of the TOC. If I were an OBS I would not be putting my faith in the RMT to look after my rights in the matter!

 

[HLE]

To be honest one of the things I saw the other day doesn’t help the DOO fight at all - this was on a TOC who’s staff are bracing themselves for the inevitable fight.

Guard pressed close door button while people were still boarding and 2 people were last in the queue on the platform by the door waiting to get on. Cue the second person ending up having the door shut on them. In broad daylight on a dogbox.

Doesn’t help the fight when one (newish) guard doesn’t follow correct procedure.

 

[InOban]

I'm sure there are experts here who can keep me right, but I thought that if the RMT doesn't actually call for industrial action over a certain period, then they would have to hold another ballot?

 

[alastair]

I'm sure there are experts here who can keep me right, but I thought that if the RMT doesn't actually call for industrial action over a certain period, then they would have to hold another ballot?

This seems to be the answer:



The 2016 Act extends the period of notice that trade unions must give prior to industrial action from the previous 7 days to 14 days, unless the employer agrees to seven days’ notice.

The legislation also sets a six-month expiry date on ballot mandates, which can be extended to nine months with the agreement of the employer; after this period industrial action will require a fresh ballot.