Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[Robertj21a]

That's exactly what was telegraphed by the infamous Croydon speech by Peter Wilkinson! Perhaps we were a little reluctant to accept that the Conservative government was so willing to fight 30 year old IR wars all over again. For what it's worth, based on past experience with DOO introductions, I think the only way for staff to be able to mount any effective resistance is if ASLEF members are willing to "go nuclear" and stage an indefinite strike. With all the financial repercussions that go with it. Remember that the the change in ASLEF policy was in response to its members views. But that is not the same as following through with action. And ASLEF has yet to even complete its ballot, so we are some way from having a clearer idea how this will all turn out.

I would hope that any Trade Union policy, particularly ASLEF/RMT, would be '......in response to its members views'. All too often it comes over as if there is a formal structure of - Management - Trade Union - Staff.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

The RMT and ASLEF (if the ASLEF ballot is in favor of a strike) would probably have more of an affect by the drivers and guards being on strike separately so say the guards are on strike on a Monday and Tuesday, the drivers would then go on strike on the Wednesday and the Thursday

 

[HH]

Clearly what the drivers do is key in this dispute. Which is no doubt why GTR have been trying every legal trick in the book to keep them out of it.

 

[TheEdge]

Clearly what the drivers do is key in this dispute. Which is no doubt why GTR have been trying every legal trick in the book to keep them out of it.

They've somewhat shot themselves in the foot with the drivers. GTR must know that their actions with the guards and RMT will have left ASLEF and the drivers in no doubt of what treatment they can expect. I assume that will have strengthened the drivers resolve and the likelihood of a strike will be up.

They also know while a conductor strike is disruptive it will pale in comparison to the utter chaos a full driver strike will cause. So they need to stop it happening. And in true GTR style why solve with discussion when you can drag it into the courts and go nuclear on it...

 

[74A]

The ASLEF ballot is for :- "Trade dispute between ASLEF and GTR Southern/Gatwick Express concerning the extension of driver only operation(passenger) without the agreement of ASLEF and contrary to our established procedures and all other matters arising out of and in consequence of the dispute"

This is the question on the ASLEF ballot according to the previous poster. The problem I see with it is that it does not call for strike to stop the extension of DOO. It says such extension can only happen with the AGREEMENT of ASLEF.

If you read the previous injunction in full what it basically says is that the company does not need the agreement of ASLEF as DOO is something they do already so no further agreement is needed to bring in 12 cars. The same argument could well apply to bringing in DOO in new routes.

If that really is the question on the ballot then I can see the legal action being successful and ASLEF will have to re ballot with a more direct question of straight strike action without reference to agreement.

What is interesting is that we will see the ballot result on Monday anyway as the legal action does not take place until Tuesday.

 

[XDM]

GTR's legal action,if it succeeds,will only put off a rephrased ballot & probable, but not certain strike action. I am not sure that drivers' posting here are typical of most drivers. However I accept that most drivers' allegiance is to ASLEF & not management because ASLEF make all the running & not the managers. Currently it is better to alienate managers than ASLEF. But management & dft are trying to demonstrate the dynamic is changing. Time will tell. I know many LOROL drivers on the overground & know they are now amazed there was any fuss about diesel barking gospel oak & the electric Nll line going DOO. Finally southern guards have to consider this. A mother & child waiting on a freezing platform or being pelted with rain,or a pensioner travelling to a critical hospital appointment or a person going to a key job interview will not take kindly to a train being cancelled because the guard has not turned up( & all the spares are out on the road or allowed home early). Specially when they are told that many Southern trains have run safely without guards for many years,that the underground has been DOO for 20 years & that DOO is very very common all over the world.

 

[speedy_sticks]

DOO discriminates those who requite a ramp up get off and on a train and wishing to run their life spontaneously, staffed platforms not real issue, unstaffed stations and platforms are.

DOO would also be more dangerous for those groups you listed because their isn't any consistent presence of anybody of authority on board apart from the driver.

GTR's legal action,if it succeeds,will only put off a rephrased ballot & probable, but not certain strike action. I am not sure that drivers' posting here are typical of most drivers. However I accept that most drivers' allegiance is to ASLEF & not management because ASLEF make all the running & not the managers. Currently it is better to alienate managers than ASLEF. But management & dft are trying to demonstrate the dynamic is changing. Time will tell. I know many LOROL drivers on the overground & know they are now amazed there was any fuss about diesel barking gospel oak & the electric Nll line going DOO. Finally southern guards have to consider this. A mother & child waiting on a freezing platform or being pelted with rain,or a pensioner travelling to a critical hospital appointment or a person going to a key job interview will not take kindly to a train being cancelled because the guard has not turned up( & all the spares are out on the road or allowed home early). Specially when they are told that many Southern trains have run safely without guards for many years,that the underground has been DOO for 20 years & that DOO is very very common all over the world.

 

[43074]

Finally southern guards have to consider this. A mother & child waiting on a freezing platform or being pelted with rain,or a pensioner travelling to a critical hospital appointment or a person going to a key job interview will not take kindly to a train being cancelled because the guard has not turned up( & all the spares are out on the road or allowed home early). Specially when they are told that many Southern trains have run safely without guards for many years,that the underground has been DOO for 20 years & that DOO is very very common all over the world.

I think actually Southern guards are quite right to stand up for their jobs and livelihoods during the dispute, but your post misses a couple of important points - Firstly the majority of the public would appear to be fairly understanding in this dispute, and many can see through the spin and downright lies that every cancellation is due to a shortage of conductors which GTR are still peddling. Second, just because it is a common method of operation doesn't mean it should be expanded; in the UK many DOO(P) schemes were introduced when passenger numbers were declining back in the 80s and 90s to save money; surely it is unnecessary to expand it when passenger numbers are continuing to increase at the rate at which they are doing so.

 

[infobleep]

I think actually Southern guards are quite right to stand up for their jobs and livelihoods during the dispute, but your post misses a couple of important points - Firstly the majority of the public would appear to be fairly understanding in this dispute, and many can see through the spin and downright lies that every cancellation is due to a shortage of conductors which GTR are still peddling. Second, just because it is a common method of operation doesn't mean it should be expanded; in the UK many DOO(P) schemes were introduced when passenger numbers were declining back in the 80s and 90s to save money; surely it is unnecessary to expand it when passenger numbers are continuing to increase at the rate at which they are doing so.

But it is due to a shortage of conductors. They simply haven't employed enough. Unless that's been disputed too.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[Flamingo]

GTR's legal action,if it succeeds,will only put off a rephrased ballot & probable, but not certain strike action. I am not sure that drivers' posting here are typical of most drivers. However I accept that most drivers' allegiance is to ASLEF & not management because ASLEF make all the running & not the managers. Currently it is better to alienate managers than ASLEF. But management & dft are trying to demonstrate the dynamic is changing. Time will tell. I know many LOROL drivers on the overground & know they are now amazed there was any fuss about diesel barking gospel oak & the electric Nll line going DOO. Finally southern guards have to consider this. A mother & child waiting on a freezing platform or being pelted with rain,or a pensioner travelling to a critical hospital appointment or a person going to a key job interview will not take kindly to a train being cancelled because the guard has not turned up( & all the spares are out on the road or allowed home early). Specially when they are told that many Southern trains have run safely without guards for many years,that the underground has been DOO for 20 years & that DOO is very very common all over the world.

Given that your post history (including the deleted ones) seems to indicate that you joined the forum just to cheerlead DOO and ignore the safety case against it, what is your background? Do you work for a TOC?

Your posts seem to come straight from a management Twitter feed, and I know I think it's a bit coincidental that the only aspect of the railway you seem interested in is DOO and how those horrible unions are preventing the nice managers giving good customer service...

 

[speedy_sticks]

But it is due to a shortage of conductors. They simply haven't employed enough. Unless that's been disputed too
.
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Since Southern have put a overtime ban on their guards, it's only now that they have realised how much that they rely on overtime.

 

[A-driver]

GTR's legal action,if it succeeds,will only put off a rephrased ballot & probable, but not certain strike action. I am not sure that drivers' posting here are typical of most drivers. However I accept that most drivers' allegiance is to ASLEF & not management because ASLEF make all the running & not the managers. Currently it is better to alienate managers than ASLEF. But management & dft are trying to demonstrate the dynamic is changing. Time will tell. I know many LOROL drivers on the overground & know they are now amazed there was any fuss about diesel barking gospel oak & the electric Nll line going DOO. Finally southern guards have to consider this. A mother & child waiting on a freezing platform or being pelted with rain,or a pensioner travelling to a critical hospital appointment or a person going to a key job interview will not take kindly to a train being cancelled because the guard has not turned up( & all the spares are out on the road or allowed home early). Specially when they are told that many Southern trains have run safely without guards for many years,that the underground has been DOO for 20 years & that DOO is very very common all over the world.

What rubbish. Someone waiting for a cancelled train, for any reason, which can't run because a conductor is not available can't blame the guards but the managment for allowing a system so reliant on overtime through chronic understaffing to save money and increase profits. As many trains are cancelled due to no driver as are due to no guard.

You are blaming the wrong people. Any cancellation due to no crew is simply a managment Failiure. There is always a chance of last minute sickness, family emergency, broken down car etc and any decent managment would have enough spare staff to cover such eventuality.

And, by the way, I'm yet to meet a single driver who prefers DOO. The drivers posting on here are in every way representative of the driving grade.

 

[Southern Dvr]

Since Southern have put a overtime ban on their guards, it's only now that they have realised how much that they rely on overtime.

Not quite true actually. They've known for a long time how reliant they are. If you recall December 2014, there were trains being cancelled all over the shop due to driver shortage. Prior to December 2014 they weren't as aware as they have been since. But, nearly 18 months later trains are again being cancelled due to no driver cover as well as no conductor cover.

Regarding the wider DOO debate, those drivers claiming they don't see an issue are the ones who do solely DOO work on a small number of routes and don't know any better. Those of us who sign more and work more conductor operated services can't help but see the fact that it's a better and safer method.

 

[Carlisle]

9in the UK many DOO(P) schemes were introduced when passenger numbers were declining back in the 80s and 90s to save money; .

Not entirely true, many DOO schemes were introduced as part of BRs total route modernisations, for example Ayr, Kent link networkers, London to Banbury/Peterborough or Kings Lynn as passanger numbers were starting to increase hence the reason for the investment in these routes the first place although I do agree growth levels weren't at the rates we've seen more recently

 

[bramling]

What rubbish. Someone waiting for a cancelled train, for any reason, which can't run because a conductor is not available can't blame the guards but the managment for allowing a system so reliant on overtime through chronic understaffing to save money and increase profits. As many trains are cancelled due to no driver as are due to no guard.

You are blaming the wrong people. Any cancellation due to no crew is simply a managment Failiure. There is always a chance of last minute sickness, family emergency, broken down car etc and any decent managment would have enough spare staff to cover such eventuality.

And, by the way, I'm yet to meet a single driver who prefers DOO. The drivers posting on here are in every way representative of the driving grade.

One wonders how much of a pay increase it would take before people start preferring DOO though. An extra £10k on the salary of every driver would still represent a saving over employing conductors, and whilst many may still prefer having the second person, I could see many happily taking the money.

 

[dgl]

One wonders how much of a pay increase it would take before people start preferring DOO though. An extra £10k on the salary of every driver would still represent a saving over employing conductors, and whilst many may still prefer having the second person, I could see many happily taking the money.

A lot more I would have thought as it highly increases the chance of a driver having an accident, whether or not it's their fault, and being prosecuted/jailed because of it.

Money may talk in some cases but I believe human life is worth more that any amount of money.

 

[bramling]

A lot more I would have thought as it highly increases the chance of a driver having an accident, whether or not it's their fault, and being prosecuted/jailed because of it.

Money may talk in some cases but I believe human life is worth more that any amount of money.

May be so, but unfortunately mortgate repayments and credit card bills also talk loudly to some people. Where I am people squabble over small amounts of overtime, so I just can't see everyone turning down a substantial pay increase, were it to appear on the table.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Since Southern have put a overtime ban on their guards, it's only now that they have realised how much that they rely on overtime.

They know. This in my opinion is a deliberate act to turn the public against the RMT.

 

[74A]

May be so, but unfortunately mortgate repayments and credit card bills also talk loudly to some people. Where I am people squabble over small amounts of overtime, so I just can't see everyone turning down a substantial pay increase, were it to appear on the table.

I doubt if GTR are intending to offer any pay increase. After all Thameslink drivers do DOO 24/7 anyway and depending on depot Southern about 60% of the time already.

 

[A-driver]

One wonders how much of a pay increase it would take before people start preferring DOO though. An extra £10k on the salary of every driver would still represent a saving over employing conductors, and whilst many may still prefer having the second person, I could see many happily taking the money.

Considering most drivers are now on 50k, an extra 10k isn't a great amount once the tax man has taken his share. Years ago when 10k would boost a 30k salary to 40 then maybe drivers would be tempted but I think the money is so high now that people would think very carefully now about selling any terms and conditions at all.

 

[Stow]

Considering most drivers are now on 50k, an extra 10k isn't a great amount once the tax man has taken his share. Years ago when 10k would boost a 30k salary to 40 then maybe drivers would be tempted but I think the money is so high now that people would think very carefully now about selling any terms and conditions at all.

I'd suggest the bigger question is how many drivers are prepared to lose around £300 per day for every strike to save the role of the guard, coupled with OT and RDW bans that could really hurt very quickly.

 

[A-driver]

I'd suggest the bigger question is how many drivers are prepared to lose around £300 per day for every strike to save the role of the guard, coupled with OT and RDW bans that could really hurt very quickly.

It's highly unlikely a rest day ban and strike would happen simultaneously. Normally rest days continue to help fund strike action.

Drivers are not going to strike over saving the guards job. They will strike as they don't want the responsibilities of DOO. May sound selfish but drivers would not vote to strike over saving someone else's job. It's not a sympathy strike. It's a strike against taking on additional duties and having their terms and conditions plus historical agreements torn up without consultation.

 

[hounddog]

Considering most drivers are now on 50k, an extra 10k isn't a great amount once the tax man has taken his share.

In that case can you lend me 5 grand?

 

[A-driver]

In that case can you lend me 5 grand?

My point was meant to be that it would take a very considerable amount (unrealistic amount) for the majority of drivers to accept such a big change and downgrade to terms and conditions. GTR drivers are at rock bottom morale already and are not looking to do any favours for the company. They have already seen their union be taken to court twice for trying to protect their terms and since they took over have seen agreement after agreement ripped up and aced fight after fight against their working conditions being eroded.

 

[Carlisle]

It's a strike against taking on additional duties and having their terms and conditions plus historical agreements torn up without consultation.

Ok that sounds plausible if they're objecting to anything above the current 10 car limit, but will be more difficult to defend if they're already paid for DOO and most of the additional planned DOO services to the likes of Portsmouth and Seaford etc are actually going to be 10 or less coaches anyway

 

[A-driver]

Ok that sounds plausible if they're objecting to anything above the current 10 car limit, but will be more difficult to defend if they're already paid for DOO and most of the additional planned DOO services to the likes of Portsmouth and Seaford etc are actually going to be 10 or less coaches

Not sure if you are deliberately misunderstanding.

The company are trampling over every agreement and this is a big one to loose. Train length or model makes no difference to the actual issue here-te company are just taking what they want and the staff won't have it.

 

[Carlisle]

Not sure if you are deliberately misunderstanding.

The company are trampling over every agreement and this is a big one to loose. Train length or model makes no difference to the actual issue here-te company are just taking what they want and the staff won't have it.

Yes this should all be done by proper negotiations but it won't be easy as both sides have already released pretty hardline statements claiming their resolutely sticking to their current positions through their various media outlets

 

[XDM]

Will the substantial number of Southern drivers in links & at depots that drive DOO all the time,& also Thameslink drivers who are all DOO,be prepared to go on strike,lose money,forgo family travel benefits, & free car parking, so that other drivers who do little or no DOO work can continue to do less work than them?
They may. I don't know.

Some drivers actually enjoy seeing who is getting in & out of their DOO trains at stations. It is a break from looking ahead at the road. It is not all grind.

 

[Captain Chaos]

Some drivers actually enjoy seeing who is getting in & out of their DOO trains at stations. It is a break from looking ahead at the road. It is not all grind.

They do on my Guarded trains as well. That doesn't mean or imply they'd rather I wasn't there. Far from it!

Your point is therefore invalid. Wanting to stick your head out of the window because the weather is nice and see people getting on and off isn't a reason for getting rid of the Guard.

Not only that but to suggest taking a break from the road ahead and looking out the side window isn't a grind is ludicrous. On a DOO train you have to concentrate on what's happening on the platform. Looking forwards to see the road is clear. Back to the platform again. Checking it's clear. Close the doors. Make sure nothing is trapped. Look forward and check the road again. Look back to the platform to ensure nobody is in contact with the train or in danger of getting dragged. Then back to the forward view to proceed.

As opposed to Guard operation: Wait for the Guard to do their bit and provided the signal is clear, upon authority to go from the Guard, off you go.

Which sounds like more of a grind to you? Prety sure I know which I would choose. Any day!

You actually sound like a GTR manager tbh...

 

[Secrettraindri]

GTR's legal action,if it succeeds,will only put off a rephrased ballot & probable, but not certain strike action. I am not sure that drivers' posting here are typical of most drivers. However I accept that most drivers' allegiance is to ASLEF & not management because ASLEF make all the running & not the managers. Currently it is better to alienate managers than ASLEF. But management & dft are trying to demonstrate the dynamic is changing. Time will tell. I know many LOROL drivers on the overground & know they are now amazed there was any fuss about diesel barking gospel oak & the electric Nll line going DOO. Finally southern guards have to consider this. A mother & child waiting on a freezing platform or being pelted with rain,or a pensioner travelling to a critical hospital appointment or a person going to a key job interview will not take kindly to a train being cancelled because the guard has not turned up( & all the spares are out on the road or allowed home early). Specially when they are told that many Southern trains have run safely without guards for many years,that the underground has been DOO for 20 years & that DOO is very very common all over the world.

What about the train cancelled due to the in cab monitors being out of service or heavily delayed, run fast or cancelled due to massive delay caused by the driver having to halt the train to investigate a smoke alarm or pass comm operated?