Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

Discussion in 'UK Railway Discussion' started by hornbyfan99, 1 Apr 2016.

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  1. tony6499

    tony6499 Member

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    Brighton has roughly a 1/3 of all Conductors so just shows how flimsy the GTR sickness argument is in blaming them,it has been seen through by a lot of the public too.

    When I was rostering train crew it was pretty easy to predict sickness and the day to day circumstances but then again I was allowed to book overtime and rest day working. If I hadn't had these resources even with 4 sick would have made the job very difficult !!!
     
  2. A-driver

    A-driver Established Member

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    Appears drivers ballot is back and from what I hear it's a strong return in favour of strike and even stronger for action short of. Havnt seen actual figures yet.
     
  3. _ollie_

    _ollie_ Member

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    ASLEF drivers vote to strike

    23 May 2016
    Mick Whelan, general secretary, has welcomed the strong mandate from GTR Southern & Gatwick Express members who have voted overwhelmingly in favour of taking action over the dispute concerning the extension of driver only operations. 95.8% of our members voted Yes to taking part in industrial action short of a strike

    http://www.aslef.org.uk/information/100012/144378/aslef_drivers_vote_to_strike/
     
  4. A-driver

    A-driver Established Member

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    82% turnout, 95% short of strike, 84% for strike action. Pretty strong result.
     
  5. AntoniC

    AntoniC Member

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    There has been an article in today`s Times (unable to link as its behind a paywall) quoting Dyan Crowther ( who runs GTR) accusing RMT and ASLEF of trying to return back to the 1970`s because of the Unions attitudes to modernisation.

    She was also quoted as saying that there would be no changes to employees Terms & Conditions and that Conductors affected by currently implemented changes would each get an individual contract.
     
  6. A-driver

    A-driver Established Member

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    It also mentioned that this was related to Peter wilkinsons comments regarding forcing strike action to break unions.
     
  7. tsr

    tsr Established Member

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    The thing is that Brighton shares almost all its route knowledge with a lot of other depots so there are very few routes where it can't be cross-covered. Obviously the sickness/lack of overtime (clearly most likely the latter) has been stated by GTR to have hit Brighton-Southampton and Brighton-Seaford in particular, and that's where Brighton route knowledge is quite often likely to be needed most to maintain a service. However, if you have a small depot like Redhill experiencing high levels of sickness, you will feel an impact on almost the entire Tonbridge and Reigate service, and combine that with Horsham depot to get a fairly vicious level of cancellations to the Horsham stoppers themselves, as well as problems transferring to cover duties the Mole Valley line and Victoria's express work on the 1Jxx/1Cxx/1Hxx groups. So the problem can actually be more noticeable at much smaller depots with more specialist work. That's why the Brighton depot issues are much more suspicious but why I can understand other whole service groups, especially via Redhill or Horsham, going badly wrong.
     
  8. 43074

    43074 Established Member

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    And the RMT has responded (there's also an image of the Times report in the link: https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-slams-disgraceful-southerngtr-press-report/

     
  9. Domh245

    Domh245 Established Member

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    RMT Press Release Checklist:

    Blame Government - ✔

    Blame Privatisation - ✔

    Fail to explain the issue at hand - ✔

    I can't help but feel the RMT would do that much better at convincing passengers that what they are doing is right if they didn't keep on bleating on about privatisation. There is a time and place for that, but a dispute about DOO isn't it. They should be explaining why what GTR are doing is wrong rather than just saying they are taking money to France.
     
  10. ComUtoR

    ComUtoR Established Member

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    They are individual contracts ! HOLY !"£$%%$&^&&(** That puts a whole new spin on it for me.
     
  11. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    In many if not most areas of industry individual contracts and performance-related pay are the norm.

    But what is the evidence that Southern want to do this? I thought the issue was DOO, and secondarily the appalling treatment of those objecting to it?
     
  12. JamesTT

    JamesTT Member

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    What are the pros and cons of an individual contract please
     
  13. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    Pros: you are rewarded according to your value to the company as an individual.

    Cons: you are rewarded according to your value to the company as an individual.

    IYSWIM :)
     
  14. ainsworth74

    ainsworth74 Forum Staff Staff Member Global Moderator

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    Wow that's an excellent result. Very strong mandate for action and people will struggle (though no doubt some will try) to spin that as being a 'hardcore minority'.
     
  15. BestWestern

    BestWestern Established Member

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    "There will be no changes to Terms & Conditions..."

    "conductors will each get an individual contract..."

    Errr..... :-/

    Meanwhile, elsewhere in GTRs parallel universe...
     
  16. Domh245

    Domh245 Established Member

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    Would I be right in saying then, that an individual contract lessens the power of the union?
     
  17. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    Yes, they are most commonly found in non-unionised industries as a union can do precious little about them.
     
  18. BestWestern

    BestWestern Established Member

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    Yup. You can wave goodbye to collective bargaining, presumably.

    What a delightful company. How I wish I worked for them. Said nobody, ever...
     
  19. Phil.

    Phil. Established Member

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    Unions. "There has been a poor investment in rail over the years".
    Management. "We will modernise the system".
    Unions. "Management are being provocative and want to cut jobs and weaken the unions".

    Now, in simple terms that is how the travelling, fare paying exasperated public sees it. The RMT -and soon the ASLEF - keep rabbiting on about safety cases and money going overseas. They are going about this wrongly. What the unions collectively have to do is to present a well informed case quoting verifiable facts in a clear and concise manner as to how driver only operation is inherently unsafe.
    Unfortunately they can't because there aren't any. So it's going to be stalemate for a while until a deal is fudged.
    In another story the newly elected mayor of London has announced that night services on two tube line - Victoria and Central I think - will start in September. What happened to make it happen?
     
  20. Deepgreen

    Deepgreen Established Member

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    Night Tube starts on 19 August.
     
  21. BestWestern

    BestWestern Established Member

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    I agree, and many RMT members feel exactly the same. Again, some PR people are required here. Urgently!
     
  22. maniacmartin

    maniacmartin Established Member Senior Fares Advisor

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    I also think the RMT need to totally rethink how they communicate with the public. Their strategy as far as I can remember has always been one of using scary language and talking about privatisation and profits being shipped abroad, without explaining the actual issues which are causing staff to strike. Whatever your views on foreign ownership of TOCs is, it is not directly relevant to the DOO battle and detracts from the message they should be trying to convey.

    To the average member of the public it just appears as if they are loonies who are ranting over nothing because they never put any relevant information in their press releases.
     
    Last edited: 23 May 2016
  23. JamesTT

    JamesTT Member

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    So government spin would be something along the lines of, hardworking people who work hard at working hard for their families will be rewarded. By having a job but not necessarily a secure one
     
  24. BestWestern

    BestWestern Established Member

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    An insecure job with the T's & C's cut to the bare bones!
     
  25. Dave1987

    Dave1987 Established Member

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    Anyone still believe this OBS role will be around for years to come?
     
  26. A-driver

    A-driver Established Member

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    What rubbish. The fact that 9 out of the 11 PTI incidents the RSSB investigated were DOO hints that perhaps DOO is less safe.

    It's not about it being UNsafe. It's about it being LESS safe. And less safe dosnt always relate to people being killed and injured. It also relates to their members (who they represent and protect) facing disciplinary action, dismissal and even prosecution for their involvement in a DOO incident.
     
  27. Captain Chaos

    Captain Chaos Member

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    On personal contracts? No doubt with 'performance related' clauses?

    Probably 2 years max. 6 months for a few when their first 'performance review' is due...

    Wonderful isn't it? Make the staff "redundant" but not give them any redundancy money (is this even legal?) Then give them a new job contract. Sack them ASAP for whatever reason can be found in their new 'personal contract'. Get rid of the entire grade except for a few for RPI duties (which they had anyway). Job done. Company gets what they want. Staff are got rid of without having to give them a payout. Awful.
     
  28. Tetchytyke

    Tetchytyke Established Member

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    Yes, it is all completely lawful. It's the way government is going too- civil servant managers in some departments are targeted to fail at least 15% of their staff- so we need to stand together and fight this.

    Of course the OBS role will have unachievable targets and these targets will be used to get rid of them on "competency".
     
  29. Captain Chaos

    Captain Chaos Member

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    And of course, it will all hinge on those pesky revenue targets. I've always seen revenue targets as being a bit meaningless really. Yes, it's important to ensure revenue is being collected and the job being done correctly, but based on fixed diagrams the company should know what should be taken on average anyway. You always get regulars. So the targets are effectively always moving from turn to turn. You can't expect someone to take £1000 on a morning peak and £1000 on a late.

    The problem is, even given the expected average, if it's on there, it's on there. If it's not, it's not. Having said that, even if we don't take revenue it's a good thing from the companies point of view. Because it means our presence is helping ensure people are buying tickets already. It won't get seen that way of course though...
     
  30. Haywain

    Haywain Established Member

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    I'm afraid that the numbers are not presented in a manner that proves anything. In your statement you have indicated that 2 of 11 incidents happened where a guard WAS present, without showing that the remaining 9 happened BECAUSE the trains were DOO. Would they have happened anyway if guards had been present? The only thing that is certain is that 11 of 11 happened where trains were present, so the safest thing would be to do away with trains - this is obviously ridiculous but bare numbers are not being used well in this argument.
     
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