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Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

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embers25

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Wow that's an excellent result. Very strong mandate for action and people will struggle (though no doubt some will try) to spin that as being a 'hardcore minority'.

Seriously...how can any union voting for strike action be "an excellent result" and for a mod to say that is even worse. Firstly it's hardly shocking as unions almost always support each other and in this case it was just box ticking as a yes vote was a formality as given GTR are trying to erode union power ASLEF members would hardly want that would they. I agree the way GTR are treating staff is shocking but a strike is still not an excellent result and also, as many have said already,members can't afford to strike long term with GTR playing hardball and GTR know that so it's also a pretty hollow vote. Also again the RMT aren't helping themselves with their predictable press release. This is one dispute they would actually get public support from if they approached it the right way and not as dinosaurs as usual. The unions are not helping theirselves or their members with their 1970's rhetoric.
 
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infobleep

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RMT Press Release Checklist:

Blame Government - ✔

Blame Privatisation - ✔

Fail to explain the issue at hand - ✔

I can't help but feel the RMT would do that much better at convincing passengers that what they are doing is right if they didn't keep on bleating on about privatisation. There is a time and place for that, but a dispute about DOO isn't it. They should be explaining why what GTR are doing is wrong rather than just saying they are taking money to France.
Couldn't agree more. I was actively looking for the word France or similar and I wasn't disappointed. If I was a union member, I wouldn't be happy with the press release.

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Domh245

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Seriously...how can any union voting for strike action be "an excellent result" and for a mod to say that is even worse. Firstly it's hardly shocking as unions almost always support each other and in this case it was just box ticking as a yes vote was a formality as given GTR are trying to erode union power ASLEF members would hardly want that would they. I agree the way GTR are treating staff is shocking but a strike is still not an excellent result and also, as many have said already,members can't afford to strike long term with GTR playing hardball and GTR know that so it's also a pretty hollow vote. Also again the RMT aren't helping themselves with their predictable press release. This is one dispute they would actually get public support from if they approached it the right way and not as dinosaurs as usual. The unions are not helping theirselves or their members with their 1970's rhetoric.

1) Mods are first and foremost users with their own opinions. They aren't forum mouthpieces - they are just users with special privileges (and duties).

2) There are many ways of interpreting excellent results when it comes to ballots. It could be excellent because it turned out the way you wanted, it could be excellent because there was a high turnout, it could be excellent because there was a high level of agreement. In this case, turnout was high and it was pretty unanimous - even if you disagree with the result.
 

ainsworth74

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Seriously...how can any union voting for strike action be "an excellent result" and for a mod to say that is even worse.

Obviously there has been some misunderstanding here. It is an 'excellent result' in terms of what I went on to say in my second sentence. It is not 'excellent' that a strike is happening.
 

JamesTT

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Couldn't agree more. I was actively looking for the word France or similar and I wasn't disappointed. If I was a union member, I wouldn't be happy with the press release.

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I am a union member and I am getting disappointed with the message they are putting out. I made a point about government spin but I expect the public support will start to go in the DFT/GTR's favour if they keep pushing the, we are going to reward hard workers line.
 

SPADTrap

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Seriously...how can any union voting for strike action be "an excellent result" and for a mod to say that is even worse. Firstly it's hardly shocking as unions almost always support each other and in this case it was just box ticking as a yes vote was a formality as given GTR are trying to erode union power ASLEF members would hardly want that would they. I agree the way GTR are treating staff is shocking but a strike is still not an excellent result and also, as many have said already,members can't afford to strike long term with GTR playing hardball and GTR know that so it's also a pretty hollow vote. Also again the RMT aren't helping themselves with their predictable press release. This is one dispute they would actually get public support from if they approached it the right way and not as dinosaurs as usual. The unions are not helping theirselves or their members with their 1970's rhetoric.

Do you know what a forum moderator is?
 

DarloRich

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Yes, it is all completely lawful. It's the way government is going too- civil servant managers in some departments are targeted to fail at least 15% of their staff- so we need to stand together and fight this.

Of course the OBS role will have unachievable targets and these targets will be used to get rid of them on "competency".

without the right to take your union rep to the meeting and have them point out the repeated faults with your managers case.

I am a union member and I am getting disappointed with the message they are putting out. I made a point about government spin but I expect the public support will start to go in the DFT/GTR's favour if they keep pushing the, we are going to reward hard workers line.

that might wash with the people with little union experience but those of us with some should easily see this idea for what it is.
 

JamesTT

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Anyone still believe this OBS role will be around for years to come?

I will raise my head above the parapet and say, those that move into the role, will have a job till at least the end of the franchise. if you asked a large number of people would they like a £30k ish a year job plus various benefits such as free travel etc . working an average 35 hour 4 day week on a contract of 5 years. A hell of a lot would be snatching the pen out of your hand to sign.
 

SPADTrap

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I will raise my head above the parapet and say, those that move into the role, will have a job till at least the end of the franchise. if you asked a large number of people would they like a £30k ish a year job plus various benefits such as free travel etc . working an average 35 hour 4 day week on a contract of 5 years. A hell of a lot would be snatching the pen out of your hand to sign.

So why haven't they then? Where is the pen snatching? :|
 

HH

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...in the UK many DOO(P) schemes were introduced when passenger numbers were declining back in the 80s and 90s to save money; surely it is unnecessary to expand it when passenger numbers are continuing to increase at the rate at which they are doing so.

You're a little behind the times. Growth appears to be stalling...
 

JamesTT

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without the right to take your union rep to the meeting and have them point out the repeated faults with your managers case.



that might wash with the people with little union experience but those of us with some should easily see this idea for what it is.

Most of the public do have little union experience. Their experience will often be what the right wing media tells them which will be the rhetoric of militant loony left unions hold the country back and to ransom, damaging those benevolent capitalist wealth creators
 

DarloRich

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I will raise my head above the parapet and say, those that move into the role, will have a job till at least the end of the franchise. if you asked a large number of people would they like a £30k ish a year job plus various benefits such as free travel etc . working an average 35 hour 4 day week on a contract of 5 years. A hell of a lot would be snatching the pen out of your hand to sign.

i think they will sign the contract. Will they see out the 5 year term..............
 

Robertj21a

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Yes, it is all completely lawful. It's the way government is going too- civil servant managers in some departments are targeted to fail at least 15% of their staff- so we need to stand together and fight this.

Of course the OBS role will have unachievable targets and these targets will be used to get rid of them on "competency".

All I would add is that these arrangements have been very common in other organisations for very many years, so nothing really new here.
 

DarloRich

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Most of the public do have little union experience. Their experience will often be what the right wing media tells them which will be the rhetoric of militant loony left unions hold the country back and to ransom, damaging those benevolent capitalist wealth creators

happy to agree that unions need to employ some PR people and media spin doctors. Quickly.
 

DarloRich

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All I would add is that these arrangements have been very common in other organisations for very many years, so nothing really new here.

not in organisations with union collective bargaining. Becuase others were unable to protect their terms does not mean everyone should surrender theirs to suit.
 

bb21

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Funny that it went down in delay attribution as a rostering error (TI code), although it would appear that GTR are disputing it for some reason. (May not be the cause code they are disputing but interesting to see what they accept at the end.)

Now reattributed as a TI code to Barnham crew cancellations, from originally a TI code on Brighton uncovered turns, as requested in the DA dispute.
 

cjmillsnun

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Seriously...how can any union voting for strike action be "an excellent result" and for a mod to say that is even worse. Firstly it's hardly shocking as unions almost always support each other and in this case it was just box ticking as a yes vote was a formality as given GTR are trying to erode union power ASLEF members would hardly want that would they. I agree the way GTR are treating staff is shocking but a strike is still not an excellent result and also, as many have said already,members can't afford to strike long term with GTR playing hardball and GTR know that so it's also a pretty hollow vote. Also again the RMT aren't helping themselves with their predictable press release. This is one dispute they would actually get public support from if they approached it the right way and not as dinosaurs as usual. The unions are not helping theirselves or their members with their 1970's rhetoric.

Unions almost always supporting each other? Tell that to those guards who were hung out to dry by ASLEF back when DOO first came in.

Now I agree with you that striking is not a good result, but it is a last ditch measure. Drivers are also being forced into changes they don't want. They are losing guards and having more responsibility placed on them without. They are also being forced into driving longer trains DOO than they agreed to.

Strikes result because of a failure between management and unions to reach a compromise. However from the tone from the GTR letters to staff, this isn't about compromise. It's about forcing their will

I also agree with you that the RMT's PR machine needs serious overhaul. They need to stop with the profits going to France rhetoric. That's spherical and in the plural. GTR gets the same money whether trains run or not. The DfT is the one raking it in in this case.

Instead they need to go into the reasons why DOO is no longer appropriate in today's railway in terms a layman can understand. IE

It's harder for the driver to check it's safe to close the doors than it used to be because.

  • Trains are longer
  • There are more passengers meaning more crowded platforms
  • Timetables are tighter, meaning less time available for station duties
  • Old equipment for DOO is not, and never has been up to the job
  • Camera equipped trains frequenty have fuzzy images and have problems in low light

Also they should mention that the driver has enough to do with watching the road ahead, and that a guard is invaluable in times of disruption any why.

They then will start to gain more sympathy (as well as retain the existing) with the travelling public. That's essential if they want any chance of winning this.
 

JamesTT

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What rubbish. The fact that 9 out of the 11 PTI incidents the RSSB investigated were DOO hints that perhaps DOO is less safe.

It's not about it being UNsafe. It's about it being LESS safe. And less safe dosnt always relate to people being killed and injured. It also relates to their members (who they represent and protect) facing disciplinary action, dismissal and even prosecution for their involvement in a DOO incident.

Could I just raise some concerns over using these 9 in 11 to bolster the support for the anti DOO camp. Has anyone read the reports surrounding these incidents?
Is there evidence to suggest the outcome would have been different had the 9 trains had a guard.
Tragic as they might be for those involved, statiscally the chances of an incident are still incredibly low guard or DOO. I can see the GTR angle now. More chance of getting hit crossing the road, do you still need Mummy to hold your hand when you do?
 

cjmillsnun

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All I would add is that these arrangements have been very common in other organisations for very many years, so nothing really new here.

Not in my industry, thank goodness. We have strong union membership and collective bargaining.
 

Dave1987

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I am a union member and I am getting disappointed with the message they are putting out. I made a point about government spin but I expect the public support will start to go in the DFT/GTR's favour if they keep pushing the, we are going to reward hard workers line.

I actually think they may have shot themselves in the foot with the "individual contracts" line. They have been claiming there will be no difference between the current guards and the new role except control of the doors, and that it's all about customer service. Even if the RMT or Aslef can't do PR, I don't htink it really matters in this instance. There will be lot's of members of the public who will understand exactly what 'individual contracts' mean. As a union member I am embarrassed at times with what PR the union comes out with. The public have already been picking apart the Twitter team.
 

HH

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Just shows you how incompetent Southern are at rostering if 4 Conductors off sick causes such chaos, looks like they are cancelling trains for no good reason but to use it to blame Conductors and use it to further their argument

I agree, 4 sick out of 116 conductors is probably below average. I would certainly allow 4% as a default.
 

Tetchytyke

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Could I just raise some concerns over using these 9 in 11 to bolster the support for the anti DOO camp. Has anyone read the reports surrounding these incidents?
Is there evidence to suggest the outcome would have been different had the 9 trains had a guard.

First you were demanding evidence that DOO(P) incidents were more common. Now you have that evidence you're now demanding evidence that DOO(P) was the contributing factor.

Why won't you admit that the sole purpose of DOO(P) is to save cash. Bugger safety. DOO(P) is "safe enough", and that passenger didn't need her legs anyway.
 
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Dave1987

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I will raise my head above the parapet and say, those that move into the role, will have a job till at least the end of the franchise. if you asked a large number of people would they like a £30k ish a year job plus various benefits such as free travel etc . working an average 35 hour 4 day week on a contract of 5 years. A hell of a lot would be snatching the pen out of your hand to sign.

But at the same time if you asked people who are in a job on circa £30k in another industry that is rapidly expanding and seeing rapid growth whether they would accept being put on a performance based contract with no overtime do you think they would be rushing to sign? We are not talking about jobs in an industry that is struggling here or a company that needs to ask staff to change to enable the survival of the company.
 

JamesTT

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I actually think they may have shot themselves in the foot with the "individual contracts" line. They have been claiming there will be no difference between the current guards and the new role except control of the doors, and that it's all about customer service. Even if the RMT or Aslef can't do PR, I don't htink it really matters in this instance. There will be lot's of members of the public who will understand exactly what 'individual contracts' mean. As a union member I am embarrassed at times with what PR the union comes out with. The public have already been picking apart the Twitter team.

Get the media behind the concept of "individual contracts" with the government adding their support and the misinformed publics opinion would very quickly be in favour of it.
 

infobleep

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What rubbish. The fact that 9 out of the 11 PTI incidents the RSSB investigated were DOO hints that perhaps DOO is less safe.

It's not about it being UNsafe. It's about it being LESS safe. And less safe dosnt always relate to people being killed and injured. It also relates to their members (who they represent and protect) facing disciplinary action, dismissal and even prosecution for their involvement in a DOO incident.
Well why aren't the union saying this? Or have I missed something in the press release.

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JamesTT

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Oh Charles, even you can do better than that.

First you were demanding evidence that DOO(P) incidents were more common. Now you have that evidence you're now demanding evidence that DOO(P) was the contributing factor.

Why won't you admit that the sole purpose of DOO(P) is to save cash. Bugger safety. DOO(P) is "safe enough", and that passenger didn't need her legs anyway.

There is no need to be like that, it is a valid point if having a guard on the train would not have changed the outcome of the incident then it is foolish to site it as a reason for having a guard.
 

infobleep

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without the right to take your union rep to the meeting and have them point out the repeated faults with your managers case.



that might wash with the people with little union experience but those of us with some should easily see this idea for what it is.
You might but will the majority of the public. I only understand the issues because I'm on here. Most of the public are not on here, no matter how popular this forum is.

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Dave1987

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Get the media behind the concept of "individual contracts" with the government adding their support and the misinformed publics opinion would very quickly be in favour of it.

Yes, indeed but like with the whole zero hour contracts thing that has become a political hot potato, when the facts of individual contracts are made clear its amazing how public opinion sways. Remember the management are constantly peddling that the only change is control of the doors and that these changes are all about enhanced customer service, all of which is BS. It's already been shown on social media that the public can see straight through the PR spin, and I'm sure the public will know the consequences of individual contracts with these new roles.
 
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