Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

Discussion in 'UK Railway Discussion' started by hornbyfan99, 1 Apr 2016.

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  1. jimbo99

    jimbo99 Member

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    Since I am not their boss, they would have nothing to fear in telling me they feel exploited. Also, whilst it might be a tradition in the railway industry for staff/unions/management/government to be at loggerheads, this "culture" is alien to many private businesses. It is the 2010s, not the 1970s.
     
    Last edited: 24 May 2016
  2. DarloRich

    DarloRich Veteran Member

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    Sadly, at least for you, that simply isn't the case in the railways.

    At least in private business if someone is so uppity as to ask for fair treatment you can get shot of them quickly without those pesky unions to demand fair treatment.
     
  3. LowLevel

    LowLevel Established Member

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    We generally speaking aren't at loggerheads though that's often how it appears. There's often plenty of collaborative working particularly at the operational level of things. I regularly accept changes to my work etc that aren't strictly permitted within my terms and conditions to help out and in return rosters will generally help when I'm in a bind.

    What the railway is universally useless at is professional change management and a habit of using change to strip layers out of the workforce rather than collaborate and embrace improvements in addition to this does not help.

    Rather than reassure staff who are genuinely (with good reason) scared of what the future holds GTR has declared war on them showing how little they value them anyway.

    On London Overground etc there were strikes and ultimately the union lost. The company though accepted that this was likely to occur as a lash out and didn't take vindictive measures against it's staff while threatening them.
     
  4. XDM

    XDM Member

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    On London Overground the drivers did not lose or win, they collaborated,as ASLEF often does quietly to its members advantage.
    They agreed DOO on the last remaining jingle bells,guard operated,lines. It was the RMT who lost,big time, although guards got good payoffs,including several around £60,000.
    I suspect that ASLEF & Gtr may be testing the water very informally. It is what this, smart, professional Union does. But I have no inside information & both sides may deny it if asked as it may be very indirect contact or none at all.
     
  5. Tetchytyke

    Tetchytyke Established Member

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    ASLEF didn't collaborate. All LOROL drivers had DOO in their contracts. There wasn't much ASLEF and the drivers could do to defend it. It was the same situation as we saw on GatEx, where the courts have agreed the drivers have to drive the DOO trains.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    You don't see disputes in private businesses because people who disagree with management don't tend to have long and fruitful careers.

    It's not really something we should be aspiring to.
     
    Last edited: 24 May 2016
  6. XDM

    XDM Member

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    The drivers neither won nor lost on London Overground. ASLEF agreed DOO on the last two Overground lines. It was RMT who lost big time,although Guards who did not want other jobs got good pay offs including at least two who got over £60,000.
    I have no evidence but I would not be suprised if ASLEF & GTR are having very informal, very private words now.
    ASLEF are smart & professional & if they can a good deal for drivers without having to be exorated in the press or members loosing money they go for it. Both sides may say the above is rubbish but they may be deniable words via a third party. I accept that the AGM ruling of no DOO expansion is a barrier,but close to home the drivers agreed to work without guards from Strood to Gillingham recently. What harm or outcry did that cause?
     
  7. embers25

    embers25 Established Member

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    Loco hauled do not NEED guards, as seen in other parts of the world and I certainly wouldn't take the ordering of loco-hauled to mean guards are safe and definitely not in their current role. Maybe TPE will become a test bed for DOO loco hauled (despite current guarentees) as if GTR get their way (the same that London Overground did) then the unions days may well be numbered unless Corbyn gets in and turns back the clock to the 70's as he seems to be promising.
     
  8. speedy_sticks

    speedy_sticks On Moderation

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    Disabled be dammed?

    How about unstaffed platforms and stations?

     
  9. Tetchytyke

    Tetchytyke Established Member

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    That's the third time you've said that in your 14 posts here, all about DOO on GTR.

    You were told it was wrong previously too.

    Stop telling fibs.

    I would, given that GTR had to go to the expensive trouble of obtaining a High Court injunction to force ASLEF drivers to drive trains they don't want to drive. High Court injunctions aren't cheap things to obtain.

    But then in all 14 of your posts here (all on GTR DOO...funny that) you're trying to make it out that the drivers are money-grabbers, the guards are money-grabbers, and it's only Saint Charles of Connex who's out to look after the passengers.
     
    Last edited: 24 May 2016
  10. Agent_c

    Agent_c Member

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    My girlfriend is on ZHC, she doesn't know if she's working the next week until the Friday before. Employees are afraid to phone in sick for fear of not being invited back next week.

    You can take that kind of "flexibility" and shove it.
     
  11. BRblue

    BRblue Member

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    I see it's "union bashing time again" YAWN!
    Time for me to take a little break from the self righteous drivel that will start to be posted by the anti union brigade. :roll:
     
  12. ComUtoR

    ComUtoR Established Member

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    Plenty and no we didn't agree recently.
     
  13. G136GREYHOUND

    G136GREYHOUND Member

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    Whoever it is . They are not even being clever in disguising the fact that they work for GOVIA now
     
  14. Dave1987

    Dave1987 Established Member

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    What on earth are you on about? So you think Aslef would be having informal discussions with a company that has taken them to the high court to file an injunction? As far as I hear Aslef are merely ensuring all I's are dotted and T's crossed. At least others are putting constructive arguments forward.
     
  15. Carlisle

    Carlisle Established Member

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    It's highly probable all those considerations have already taken place over recent times amongst those in power with the likely verdict for non DOO services being either go for what's seen as the potentially increased operational flexibility of something vaguely resembling the OBS role or make virtually no change to current practice, tinkering around the edges is unlikely to be worth the expense or the upheaval
     
    Last edited: 24 May 2016
  16. XDM

    XDM Member

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    The extension of DOO from Strood to Gillingham was agreed by ASLEF in 2011,long after the first introduction of DOO in the south east. It was implemented by mid 2013 - pretty recently by the glacial standards of Network Rail,the monitor erectors,& our railway generally.
    There was no strike,no ballot,just implementation.
    It's relevant because it shows that in recent time & on Southern's doorstep DOO has quietly come in without fanfare or fuss.
     
  17. ComUtoR

    ComUtoR Established Member

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    Strood to Gill was always in the DOO area but never used. It wasn't considered a new implementation or extension. There was complaints made but the union stated they had little choice as it was always DOO, just never worked as such.

    On a side note to that. Drivers used to be booked to work that section as Guards. Its also worth noting that it had some major cancellations semi recently due to a fault with the monitors and no trains were allowed to call there as DOO. SP all that rhetoric about lack of Guards and cancellations is just as valid under DOO.
     
  18. phoenixcronin

    phoenixcronin Member

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    How does everyone think this dispute will end? Personally I think GTR are of the view that they can afford a few strikes here and there as long as they eventually get their wish, and fortunately/unfortunately (delete as appropriate) I think this is what will happen, and DOO will be implemented.

    I also believe that GTR think that public opinion will slowly turn against the guards/RMT as strikes continue.
     
    Last edited: 24 May 2016
  19. craigybagel

    craigybagel Established Member

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    A lot may well depend on the court verdict today and whether or not the drivers get to come out on strike as well.....
     
  20. Bookd

    Bookd Member

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    Not wishing to knock unions in principal, it is easy for outsiders to loose patience. After interminable disputes the new (Labour) Mayor of London has at last announced a start date for night tubes; the reaction of RMT was that yes, we want it, but we will have another series of strikes. Why can't they be seen to be proactive in trying to make things work?
     
  21. JamesTT

    JamesTT Member

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    Is the one of the reasons GTR are taking ASLEF to court because they only balloted GX and SN drivers? I believe it is just these drivers of the GTR/TSGN franchise that are being effected. If so what is the likelyhood of negotiations between GTR and ASLEF going down the lines of GTR offering to scrap the separate conditions for the different sets of drivers. They will all be paid at the level of the highest driving group. Terms and conditions will be harmonised perhaps including the introduction of the 32 hour week. As long as extension to DOO is accepted on all routes approved by Network rail and the RSSB etc.
     
  22. Dave1987

    Dave1987 Established Member

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    I think you are looking at this from the wrong point of view. What about the family life of those tube workers you are expecting to work longer hours over the weekends? I love it when politicians come out with schemes that they think will win them votes. They never think about those at the bottom of the food chain who will have to work longer hours to facilitate those schemes. Because of course they will be tucked up in bed or hitting the scotch when those people are still at work in the early hours of the morning <(
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    Ah yes the good old harmonisation talks. Some are going about the right way, others aren't!
     
    Last edited: 24 May 2016
  23. A-driver

    A-driver Established Member

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    No. Not tht they ONLY balloted southern and Gatwick-GN and TL would never be balloted without full harmonisation. The injunction is as they included southern in the ballot which the company claims only affects Gatwick.

    Full harmonisation will never happen as it would be too expensive-FCC is the smaller 'half' and are on much better money and terms. Would be too expensive as to harmonise you would need to increase all southern and Gatwick drivers pay and conditions to some extent.
     
  24. embers25

    embers25 Established Member

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    I never said I agreed they should become DOO, I'm just saying that they likely will. I agree in this day and age the fact that disabled travellers needs are being so blatantly ignored is astounding but also the more the union digs in the more GTR will and the more DOO becomes inevitable. At least London Overground staff stations so disabled aren't too affected and obviously Southern are quite happy not to staff stations or trains.

    To the other poster, It is also not union bashing it is fact, the RMT have massively dropped the ball here and have let their members down and all their press releases show that when it comes down to it they are politics first, members second and passengers never unless it suits their political aims. Guards have public sympathy but are losing it fast due to the RMT not being able to counter GTR's claims and lets face it a five year old could counter them. It's not about money going to France or the Government wanting to crush unions, it's not even about the safety critical part as that is also VERY subjective in the eyes of many. Whether a guard is safety critical or not, what they 100% are is valued by the travelling public and they increase the perception of safety, even if they never leave their office. the public lost sympathy for the miners during their strike due to the actions of the NUM and the RMT are causing the same thing here.
     
  25. 74A

    74A Member

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    This is taken from the Southern website :-

    ASLEF union ballot result - Monday 23rd May 2016 - A response from Southern:

    We are disappointed with the result and will now await notification from Aslef as to what its plans may be. Any action would only heap more disruption on our passengers - passengers who have already been through two recent strikes by RMT Union Conductors.

    We have repeatedly tried to engage with Aslef on this but the union has refused to engage in any sort of meaningful dialogue. We urge them once more to sit down and talk to us.

    In the meantime, we have sought an injunction from the High Court against any industrial action that may result from this ballot. ASLEF selected which drivers it balloted in a way that breaches the strict rules on balloting, and that, because it induced drivers to refuse to drive trains in advance of conducting the ballot, it cannot now lawfully ask them to take industrial action.

    We expect to hear the result of our injunction application in the next few days.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    This is taken from the Southern website :-

    ASLEF union ballot result - Monday 23rd May 2016 - A response from Southern:

    We are disappointed with the result and will now await notification from Aslef as to what its plans may be. Any action would only heap more disruption on our passengers - passengers who have already been through two recent strikes by RMT Union Conductors.

    We have repeatedly tried to engage with Aslef on this but the union has refused to engage in any sort of meaningful dialogue. We urge them once more to sit down and talk to us.

    In the meantime, we have sought an injunction from the High Court against any industrial action that may result from this ballot. ASLEF selected which drivers it balloted in a way that breaches the strict rules on balloting, and that, because it induced drivers to refuse to drive trains in advance of conducting the ballot, it cannot now lawfully ask them to take industrial action.

    We expect to hear the result of our injunction application in the next few days.
     
  26. Dave1987

    Dave1987 Established Member

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    If Aslef haven't sought sound legal advice on the ballot before commencing it I would be astonished. After the first injunction got through on simple wording then I would hope they have been very careful with this, this time around.
     
  27. ajb690

    ajb690 Member

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    I can't find the link to the text of the earlier judgement (sure it was posted on this thread, but my google-fu is letting me down). However, one thing that stuck out to me was something along the lines of "GTR has provided voluminous documentation" to prove their case.

    While I am sure ASLEF have taken proper legal advice, I am also sure that GTR have, and were fully prepared to take court action long before even announcing their plans. I hope that ASLEF win, but I also believe that GTR have recognised that the only issue that can throw a spanner in their works is a drivers' strike. So while I am with your sentiment, I am a little less sanguine about the outcome...

    d
     
  28. ainsworth74

    ainsworth74 Forum Staff Staff Member Global Moderator

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    Previous GTR v ASLEF case can be found here.
     
  29. JamesTT

    JamesTT Member

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    Would that not depend on how much the bonus payment for the introducing an extension of DOO would be. Plus the bonus for hitting ticketless travel targets which GTR believe they will meet by introducing the OBS role.
     
  30. Dave1987

    Dave1987 Established Member

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    Thought the OBS role was all about better customer service <D
     
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