Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[FordFocus]

Glad to see this discussion continuing on from the Gatwick Express topic that turned into a farce from certain anti-guard posters. At the time of typing this post I see 33 members and 24 guests are viewing this topic so it will probably end up getting locked again.

Technology isn't always an improvement, I fail see the relevance of bringing in how a lump of coal dug up from the ground can be compared with passengers loaded on overcrowded platform but let's not let get in the way of a good old 'dinosaur union bashing thread'.

On my patch a lot of DOO equipment is coming under scrutiny and a few stations are now having dispatchers placed there because the equipment has become unfit for purpose. So thousands of pounds worth of CCTV equipment is been sat unused with a Mk1 human eye ball with a whistle and bat there instead. Far more effective as the person in the charge of the platform isn't sat 8 cars away in a cab when people are stood too close to the train. They can immediately sort the issue out.

ASLEF have had enough of this DOO. The railway has changed since it was agreed back in the 80s. Trains and platforms were less busy with many less incidents on the platforms or people getting dragged by trains. Since the 80s no technology has effectively stopped people getting dragged causing serious injury. Just look at many RAIB reports. The only techonology that tried to address the issue was 'Sensitive Door Edges' on the Victoria Line which caused mayhem when they were introduced constantly delaying trains and were at a time overridden on the instructions of management.

 

[TheEdge]

So why can't a passenger just pull an emergency chord and connect to a control centre, or fit technology that detects when a train has derailed and which vehicle?

If the driver is incapacitated, and emergency alarm already sounds in the controlling box.

So every time a small toddler hits a passcom by mistake its time to sound the alarms in control. If a system was like that it would need to automatically bring everything to a halt via GSMR and appear in control as an emergency. And given how many accidental passcoms are triggered daily I hope you don't need to actually get anywhere. What if the incident train doesn't derail? No alarm? Derailing and accidents don't go hand in hand?

Again, how? Every time a driver fails to cancel AWS or DSD automatic emergency stop in that cell? Again, hope you don't need to be somewhere. Or what would happen in the various recent incidents where the driver's off train comms have been killed by the accident?

 

[FordFocus]

If the driver is incapacitated, and emergency alarm already sounds in the controlling box.

Ahh.......... the DSD alarm that goes through the GSM-R system. No good when the front of the train hits a cow and takes out the GSM-R system in the cab.

 

[highdyke]

Glad to see this discussion continuing on from the Gatwick Express topic that turned into a farce from certain anti-guard posters. At the time of typing this post I see 33 members and 24 guests are viewing this topic so it will probably end up getting locked again.

Technology isn't always an improvement, I fail see the relevance of bringing in how a lump of coal dug up from the ground can be compared with passengers loaded on overcrowded platform but let's not let get in the way of a good old 'dinosaur union bashing thread'.

On my patch a lot of DOO equipment is coming under scrutiny and a few stations are now having dispatchers placed there because the equipment has become unfit for purpose. So thousands of pounds worth of CCTV equipment is been sat unused with a Mk1 human eye ball with a whistle and bat there instead. Far more effective as the person in the charge of the platform isn't sat 8 cars away in a cab when people are stood too close to the train. They can immediately sort the issue out.

ASLEF have had enough of this DOO. The railway has changed since it was agreed back in the 80s. Trains and platforms were less busy with many less incidents on the platforms or people getting dragged by trains. Since the 80s no technology has effectively stopped people getting dragged causing serious injury. Just look at many RAIB reports. The only techonology that tried to address the issue was 'Sensitive Door Edges' on the Victoria Line which caused mayhem when they were introduced constantly delaying trains and were at a time overridden on the instructions of management.

Fine, drivers should take a 10k pay cut and retain all guards then.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Ahh.......... the DSD alarm that goes through the GSM-R system. No good when the front of the train hits a cow and takes out the GSM-R system in the cab.

In which case the the alarm will still sound.....You should find out how these things work.

 

[FordFocus]

Why not retain pay for both grades and leave this safer method of working in place?

 

[TheEdge]

Why not retain pay for both grades and leave this safer method of working in place?

Take your common sense and leave this place. NOW!

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Why not retain pay for both grades and leave this safer method of working in place?

Because that would be too easy.

 

[FordFocus]

In which case the the alarm will still sound.....You should find out how these things work.

How will the DSD alarm sound on the GSM-R head unit and send a DSD alarm to the signaller when the GSM-R head unit has no power going to it because of cab damage?

You honestly have no idea

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Take your common sense and leave this place. NOW!

Wheres that like button lol

 

[TheEdge]

In which case the the alarm will still sound.....You should find out how these things work.

Again, introducing problems. Lets say we build a dead mans system into GSMR. Constant handshakes from GSM-R to a base station. Miss a handshake, emergency alarm stopping all traffic. Simple. Unless a GSM-R is off to be reset, or trips out, or goes into a dead zone...

 

[Don King]

Fine, drivers should take a 10k pay cut and retain all guards then.

1) We have refused significant pay rises because pay deals have pushed for DOO in them.
2) I would actually quite happily take a pay cut of £10,000 if it was that or see my colleagues on the dole, if for example there was a genuine reason for the pay cut - for example railway was in dire financial straights and it was that or mass redundancies / line closures - as opposed to corporate greed.
3) As I work with guards anyway, are you proposing that my pay cut is distributed to another rail operator without them to recruit them?

 

[LBSCR Times]

Thats if the GSM-R is working which at least up here tends to be pretty glitchy.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Good then stop trying to make an argument about something that you have absolutely no clue about (apart from what you have read in the Daily mail)

As someone who has been involved in DOO since the outset, the conditions for implementing and maintaining are getting more and more tighter, and that is with stock that has onboard CCTV, compared to mirrors and monitors.
Along with extra platform staff too, but then the RMT have never really been interested in them (us - yes, me many years ago), as they don't have the same clout as onboard staff.

 

[The Box Photter]

Thats if the GSM-R is working which at least up here tends to be pretty glitchy.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Good then stop trying to make an argument about something that you have absolutely no clue about (apart from what you have read in the Daily mail)

I can tell I've hit a nerve here. Many posters have implied that without Guards/Conductors, we're just a small step away from disaster every time we get onto a train. It that was the case, why is DOO allowed anywhere?

I'm as entitled to put my opinion as any other poster and I contend that the "Safety Critical" aspect is in fact the Emperor's new clothes. Everyone can see logically that DOO trains are no less safe than those with a Guard. Statistically speaking you're no more likely to be involved in a train accident as a passenger on a DOO train than one that carries a Guard. The Ladbroke Grove train had a Guard, as did the Ufton Nervet train, as did the ones at Potter's Bar, Purley and Hatfield. When the two DEMUs collided on the Oxted Branch, I understand the Guard was in the driving cab of one of the units, probably distracting the driver and contributing to the crash. It's just that those with a vested interest can't admit that the days of the train Guard are coming to an end.

I'm sure the lamplighters made a very strong safety case that replacing gas street lights with electric ones would render the streets strewn with the dead and maimed.

 

[highdyke]

How will the DSD alarm sound on the GSM-R head unit and send a DSD alarm to the signaller when the GSM-R head unit has no power going to it because of cab damage?

You honestly have no idea

Like most signalling equipment it's fail safe, so if nothing is received back the alarm sounds. Your training is obviously lacking.

 

[HLE]

But none of these require you to be a guard.

Do you really think that the new 'onboard roles' will last more than a couple of years before they're done away with?

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I can tell I've hit a nerve here. Many posters have implied that without Guards/Conductors, we're just a small step away from disaster every time we get onto a train. It that was the case, why is DOO allowed anywhere?

I'm as entitled to put my opinion as any other poster and I contend that the "Safety Critical" aspect is in fact the Emperor's new clothes. Everyone can see logically that DOO trains are no less safe than those with a Guard. Statistically speaking you're no more likely to be involved in a train accident as a passenger on a DOO train than one that carries a Guard. The Ladbroke Grove train had a Guard, as did the Ufton Nervet train, as did the ones at Potter's Bar, Purley and Hatfield. When the two DEMUs collided on the Oxted Branch, I understand the Guard was in the driving cab of one of the units, probably distracting the driver and contributing to the crash. It's just that those with a vested interest can't admit that the days of the train Guard are coming to an end.

I'm sure the lamplighters made a very strong safety case that replacing gas street lights with electric ones would render the streets strewn with the dead and maimed.

Crikey you are really grabbing at straws why dont you read what the EXPERIENCED DOO traincrew are saying they have so much more clout with knowledge and experience that you can ever dream of.

 

[Mike395]

I've added a notice to the first post - please ensure you read it if you're currently taking part in this thread.

 

[highdyke]

Crikey you are really grabbing at straws why dont you read what the EXPERIENCED DOO traincrew are saying they have so much more clout with knowledge and experience that you can ever dream of.

What experience of DOO have you got?

 

[ANorthernGuard]

What experience of DOO have you got?

I haven't (and hope I never will)I was pointing out that the likes of Don have.

 

[Agent_c]

So why can't a passenger just pull an emergency chord and connect to a control centre, or fit technology that detects when a train has derailed and which vehicle? Or the retail staff use their GSM-R phone?

If the driver is incapacitated, and emergency alarm already sounds in the controlling box.

Great. Someone a long way away who can't do anything immediately knows there's a problem... maybe

You're counting on the train not having a power failure though. Not sure I'd want to start assuming you have power in an emergency situation - I'd probably start with an assumption the train didn't, but the lines were live.

 

[HLE]

So that is the solution? Accept everything thrown at you or resign? What a pathetic country we have become if that's the mentality these days.

God praise the corporates and the Tories eh?

That's the mentality these days. And it stinks.

 

[sarahj]

The moderators will be getting themselves in a pickle. There is Big news on the railway, but the threads then descend into flame wars. The title has already changed, think we are heading for a locked thread.

 

[74A]

I haven't (and hope I never will)I was pointing out that the likes of Don have.

Well as the new Northern franchise has DOO specified in the contract I suspect you will be seeing it sooner rather than later

 

[The Box Photter]

Crikey you are really grabbing at straws why dont you read what the EXPERIENCED DOO traincrew are saying they have so much more clout with knowledge and experience that you can ever dream of.

OK I back down, lets rip out all the CCTV, blank the monitors in the drivers' cabs and have every train dispatched manually by a chap/chapess in a peaked cap blowing a whistle and waving a green flag.

How much will my season ticket price increase by to keep all your chums in a job for life?

 

[DarloRich]

How much will my season ticket price increase by to keep all your chums in a job for life?

I wonder how quickly the savings made in sacking all the guards will be passed on to the passenger................

 

[highdyke]

Great. Someone a long way away who can't do anything immediately knows there's a problem... maybe

You're counting on the train not having a power failure though. Not sure I'd want to start assuming you have power in an emergency situation - I'd probably start with an assumption the train didn't, but the lines were live.

There's procedures in place to deal with that, are you are of them, and what do they say?

 

[Sprinter153]

I certainly don't feel unduly worried that there isn't someone wearing a Thameslink uniform sitting in the rear cab doing a sudoku and occasionally pushing a button to close the doors.

How insulting. Do you really think that all of us, all of the time just sit in the cab 'watching receding track'? Yes, there are a minority of Guards who do that, but your comments are a slur against those of us that take pride in our profession.

As a Guard, I control the safety of the train, inside and out, well beyond the occasional pressing of buttons. I analyse and monitor the platform train interface, reacting to anything with the potential to affect passenger safety. I check and issue travel documents, I offer journey advice to passengers. I keep them updated when things go wrong, and my professional route knowledge and operational understanding means I have full understanding of what can cause delays and affect journeys. I observe and report train faults, from vital safety systems when the driver needs to concentrate on driving to plug sockets and WiFi. I manage other staff, from ticket examiners to catering stewards, and look after their welfare and make sure they're delivering a good service. I assist passengers who are less able on to and off the train, and can use all kinds of tools to make their journeys as seamless as possible. I have helped my driver clear trees from the line, been a competent person during the failure of vital safety systems, and made emergency calls to signallers to protect my own train and others.

I am a Guard - not a supervisor or a host or whatever other buzzword is the next - and I have value to my passengers, to my driver and to the wider safety of the railway.

I know some people on here would relish the end of staff presence on trains so there isn't someone to challenge them on this week's ticket loophole or charge them for being on the wrong train with an Advance ticket - but I really believe there is a case for the safety trained, passenger-focused, hard-working guard.

On the other hand, a common observation at my TOC is the ones wearing the yellow RMT campaign badges are the ones who live in the back cab...

 

[highdyke]

OK I back down, lets rip out all the CCTV, blank the monitors in the drivers' cabs and have every train dispatched manually by a chap/chapess in a peaked cap blowing a whistle and waving a green flag.

How much will my season ticket price increase by to keep all your chums in a job for life?

No lets go better than that, let's have the chap out with the red flag in front at walking pace as we can't rely on any technology at all!

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Well as the new Northern franchise has DOO specified in the contract I suspect you will be seeing it sooner rather than later

Thats why the battle lines drawn down south could have so many implications up here in Northernland.

 

[TheEdge]

The Ladbroke Grove train had a Guard,

Nothing to do with gaurds. Infact as both drivers were killed in the collision take a guess who will have done the immediate hard work.

...as did the Ufton Nervet train,

Again, nothing to do with guard, driver killed, as above.

as did the ones at Potter's Bar, Purley and Hatfield.

Infrastructure, driver error, infrastructure. Again, irrelevant.

When the two DEMUs collided on the Oxted Branch, I understand the Guard was in the driving cab of one of the units, probably distracting the driver and contributing to the crash.

Which is why guards in the front cab is verboten.

It's just that those with a vested interest can't admit that the days of the train Guard are coming to an end.

I do hope if you are looking down the barrel of a gun like this people are as understanding.