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Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

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Agent_c

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No lets go better than that, let's have the chap out with the red flag in front at walking pace as we can't rely on any technology at all!

Tell me, did you grow up on a farm, or did they teach you to build such impressive straw men in school?

Nobody is saying "Technology bad, must smash!". The question is on the merit of this particular technology. Is DOO, with CCTV on 12 doors a side, an adequate and safe replacement for a human being looking out the window, keeping his eyes on the doors and not having the distraction of needing to operate the train whilst doing so?
 
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Don King

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Isn't it interesting how the pro DOO posters resort to insulting traincrew.

The technology argument may be a valid argument if we debate issues like platform edge doors or indeed the use of CD / RA dispatch by platform staff (of which the former wouldn't work on the mainline and I actually favour the RA as Virgin do, to mitigate accidental belling out on a red) - now that's how technology benefits platform staff, guards and drivers for example.

Instead apparently all guards sit around doing crosswords, and drivers should relish the prospect of dispatching trains with drunks on platforms causing trouble.
 

TheEdge

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OK I back down, lets rip out all the CCTV, blank the monitors in the drivers' cabs and have every train dispatched manually by a chap/chapess in a peaked cap blowing a whistle and waving a green flag.

How much will my season ticket price increase by to keep all your chums in a job for life?

Excellent, we agree, a safe method of working with hundreds of years of evolution.

As to price, it won't, because its already in the price. And good luck if you think a solitary penny of savings would fund itself in your pocket. Unless you happen to be a TOC shareholder.
 

FordFocus

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Like most signalling equipment it's fail safe, so if nothing is received back the alarm sounds. Your training is obviously lacking.

Your talking absolute rubbish, have you got any railway experience? My experience is driving both DOO and non-DOO trains so I'm more than aware of the rules that govern what is required to run DOO-P services just encase we go there....

If my GSM-R radio unit fails then the train cannot send a DSD message to the signaller immediately (remember, every second counts). When and if the signaller notices something is wrong, the signaller CANNOT contact the train through the GSM-R or PA system because the GSM-R unit isn't working.
 

absolutelymilk

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As to price, it won't, because its already in the price. And good luck if you think a solitary penny of savings would fund itself in your pocket. Unless you happen to be a TOC shareholder.

TOC profits have stayed fairly stable at around 2-3% of turnover despite improvements in efficiency and increased passenger numbers.
 
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How insulting. Do you really think that all of us, all of the time just sit in the cab 'watching receding track'? Yes, there are a minority of Guards who do that, but your comments are a slur against those of us that take pride in our profession.

As a Guard, I control the safety of the train, inside and out, well beyond the occasional pressing of buttons. I analyse and monitor the platform train interface, reacting to anything with the potential to affect passenger safety. I check and issue travel documents, I offer journey advice to passengers. I keep them updated when things go wrong, and my professional route knowledge and operational understanding means I have full understanding of what can cause delays and affect journeys. I observe and report train faults, from vital safety systems when the driver needs to concentrate on driving to plug sockets and WiFi. I manage other staff, from ticket examiners to catering stewards, and look after their welfare and make sure they're delivering a good service. I assist passengers who are less able on to and off the train, and can use all kinds of tools to make their journeys as seamless as possible. I have helped my driver clear trees from the line, been a competent person during the failure of vital safety systems, and made emergency calls to signallers to protect my own train and others.

I am a Guard - not a supervisor or a host or whatever other buzzword is the next - and I have value to my passengers, to my driver and to the wider safety of the railway.

I know some people on here would relish the end of staff presence on trains so there isn't someone to challenge them on this week's ticket loophole or charge them for being on the wrong train with an Advance ticket - but I really believe there is a case for the safety trained, passenger-focused, hard-working guard.

On the other hand, a common observation at my TOC is the ones wearing the yellow RMT campaign badges are the ones who live in the back cab...

You seem to be a person who takes a pride in their work. Speaking as a passenger who uses DOO trains the majority of the time, I've often acted as a source of route information to passengers who weren't quite sure they were on the correct train. I've also given them information about where to change to get where they actually want to go. The presence of a Guard on the train wouldn't have stopped then from getting on the wrong train in the first place though.

I understand the importance of protection of the rear of the train in the event of a failure. But in the modern block-signaled railway how would a train be allowed to enter into a block that was still showing as occupied on the panel? Hasn't the driver got access to the signaller via a cab telephone to inform that the train has stopped out of course?

How much better are a Guard's Mk1 eyeballs at seeing along the length of a 12-car train on a curved platform than the driver's same Mk1 eyeballs monitoring cameras on the outside of each carriage from the comfort of his cab? It's not a case of having two sets of eyes dispatching the train, because if there's a Guard, the driver isn't looking, he's waiting for the buzzer. If it becomes the Guard's job to look at the in-cab monitors, then that's extra cost to the industry, because he's doing a job that the driver can do.

When the TOC employs RPIs, there's no need for a Guard to check tickets. If all stations are gated, theoretically no-one can get on the train without buying a ticket anyway. All London termini are gated. Proper monitoring of those barriers would virtually eliminate fare-dodging and adults riding with children's tickets.
 

Fincra5

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Just FYI there is no chance fares will decrease by reducing the number of safety trained staff onboard your service.... They will increase (as ever) by RPI.
 

bengley

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You seem to be a person who takes a pride in their work. Speaking as a passenger who uses DOO trains the majority of the time, I've often acted as a source of route information to passengers who weren't quite sure they were on the correct train. I've also given them information about where to change to get where they actually want to go. The presence of a Guard on the train wouldn't have stopped then from getting on the wrong train in the first place though.

I understand the importance of protection of the rear of the train in the event of a failure. But in the modern block-signaled railway how would a train be allowed to enter into a block that was still showing as occupied on the panel? Hasn't the driver got access to the signaller via a cab telephone to inform that the train has stopped out of course?

How much better are a Guard's Mk1 eyeballs at seeing along the length of a 12-car train on a curved platform than the driver's same Mk1 eyeballs monitoring cameras on the outside of each carriage from the comfort of his cab? It's not a case of having two sets of eyes dispatching the train, because if there's a Guard, the driver isn't looking, he's waiting for the buzzer. If it becomes the Guard's job to look at the in-cab monitors, then that's extra cost to the industry, because he's doing a job that the driver can do.

When the TOC employs RPIs, there's no need for a Guard to check tickets. If all stations are gated, theoretically no-one can get on the train without buying a ticket anyway. All London termini are gated. Proper monitoring of those barriers would virtually eliminate fare-dodging and adults riding with children's tickets.

Have you ever seen the monitors inside a class 377?

8KQ5ddS.jpg


This is clearly not a real image as I am unlikely to get a chance to take a photograph inside the cab (as I'll be driving the train) but it's very close to what we see on the monitors (except the images are often over/underexposed and blurred)
 

TheEdge

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I understand the importance of protection of the rear of the train in the event of a failure. But in the modern block-signaled railway how would a train be allowed to enter into a block that was still showing as occupied on the panel? Hasn't the driver got access to the signaller via a cab telephone to inform that the train has stopped out of course?

A fully derailed train won't activate the track circuit so won't show a block as occupied. The driver can do that, assuming a) the driver is alive, conscious and mobile and b) a crash hasn't obliterated the cab and said equipment.

How much better are a Guard's Mk1 eyeballs at seeing along the length of a 12-car train on a curved platform than the driver's same Mk1 eyeballs monitoring cameras on the outside of each carriage from the comfort of his cab? It's not a case of having two sets of eyes dispatching the train, because if there's a Guard, the driver isn't looking, he's waiting for the buzzer. If it becomes the Guard's job to look at the in-cab monitors, then that's extra cost to the industry, because he's doing a job that the driver can do.

Because the guard's Mk1 eyeballs are concentrating on the platform alone. They are not also looking at the line ahead, the next signal, the foot crossing and the guard will not close their eyes after moving off, unlike the in cab screens, which do turn off. Its not having two sets of eyes, its one set of eyes focused on the PTI alone. There is no extra cost in having guards, we are already here.

When the TOC employs RPIs, there's no need for a Guard to check tickets. If all stations are gated, theoretically no-one can get on the train without buying a ticket anyway. All London termini are gated. Proper monitoring of those barriers would virtually eliminate fare-dodging and adults riding with children's tickets.

Thats funny, your funny because you genuinely believe that. How would barriers stop doughnutting? Or wrong time advances? Or the million other ways to get round a barrier.
 

Domh245

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Have you ever seen the monitors inside a class 377?

This is clearly not a real image as I am unlikely to get a chance to take a photograph inside the cab (as I'll be driving the train) but it's very close to what we see on the monitors (except the images are often over/underexposed and blurred)

FWIW, I found an image of a 379 with it's screens on. Looks similar?
 
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Excellent, we agree, a safe method of working with hundreds of years of evolution.

As to price, it won't, because its already in the price. And good luck if you think a solitary penny of savings would fund itself in your pocket. Unless you happen to be a TOC shareholder.

Whilst I applaud your choice of avatar, your thinking on efficient railway operation seems to be rooted in that same era.

I'd be overjoyed to return to the days of pleasant wayside stations that employed a porter, ticket clerk, cleaner, signalman and a stationmaster in a top had who greeted all his regular passengers by name.

BR couldn't afford to keep that going and tried to modernise. At every turn they were thwarted by the unions. Look at the ludicrous blacking of the experimental HST because it only had a single seat in the cab. The union demanded a second seat for a fireman and side windows in the GRP cab that meant a complete redesign.

What is happening with DOO is simply another example of progress being hindered by outdated union political point-scoring.
 

absolutelymilk

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Just FYI there is no chance fares will decrease by reducing the number of safety trained staff onboard your service.... They will increase (as ever) by RPI.

In the current climate where there is mass overcrowding then yes it is likely that prices would not decrease as this would cause even more passengers to travel. But if capacity increases or passenger growth slows such that this is no longer the case, then there is no reason that fares would not decrease in order to boost numbers.
 

Antman

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Whilst I applaud your choice of avatar, your thinking on efficient railway operation seems to be rooted in that same era.

I'd be overjoyed to return to the days of pleasant wayside stations that employed a porter, ticket clerk, cleaner, signalman and a stationmaster in a top had who greeted all his regular passengers by name.

BR couldn't afford to keep that going and tried to modernise. At every turn they were thwarted by the unions. Look at the ludicrous blacking of the experimental HST because it only had a single seat in the cab. The union demanded a second seat for a fireman and side windows in the GRP cab that meant a complete redesign.

What is happening with DOO is simply another example of progress being hindered by outdated union political point-scoring.

I totally agree with you.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
interestingly there were delays in southern land recently for " bright sunlight on the the ddo monitor"

hmmmmmmmmmmmm

Southeastern at Lewisham
 
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Have you ever seen the monitors inside a class 377?

8KQ5ddS.jpg


This is clearly not a real image as I am unlikely to get a chance to take a photograph inside the cab (as I'll be driving the train) but it's very close to what we see on the monitors (except the images are often over/underexposed and blurred)

So why did the union agree to DOO using those systems if they're unsafe?

Pretty soon, I'd assume the cameras will be monitored by computer anyway. Much in the same way that the driver will be replaced by a computer too.
 

bnm

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The moderators will be getting themselves in a pickle. There is Big news on the railway, but the threads then descend into flame wars. The title has already changed, think we are heading for a locked thread.

That seems to be the usual hope of the vested interests.

I applaud the mods for their reasoned stance. Allowing both sides of the debate without those of a dissenting voice being censored, just because those that shout loudest get heard.

As to the issue itself. I've nothing but admiration for those fighting their corner, but life experience and history tells me it's a fight that will be lost. DOO will expand. Roles will be changed to reflect that. It's reassuring to hear there will be no compulsory redundancies on the back of current changes at GTR. I fully understand that may be different in a few years, but that is not untypical of any job in our current iteration of capitalist democracy.
 

TheEdge

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I'd be overjoyed to return to the days of pleasant wayside stations that employed a porter, ticket clerk, cleaner, signalman and a stationmaster in a top had who greeted all his regular passengers by name.

BR couldn't afford to keep that going and tried to modernise. At every turn they were thwarted by the unions. Look at the ludicrous blacking of the experimental HST because it only had a single seat in the cab. The union demanded a second seat for a fireman and side windows in the GRP cab that meant a complete redesign.

No they couldn't and they did. Starting with the 1955 modernisation plan, through the Beeching cuts of 1960s, the rationalisation and loss of loco services for units of the 1970s-2000s and the replacement of older signalling systems with new doesn't count then?

What is happening with DOO is simply another example of progress being hindered by outdated union political point-scoring.

No, its not. Its a protection of a safe system of working instead of bowing to corporate profit magins.

Pretty soon, I'd assume the cameras will be monitored by computer anyway. Much in the same way that the driver will be replaced by a computer too.

Wow, I hope your job gets replaced by a robot. Tell me where you work so I can come and laugh at you.
 

Don King

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Look at the ludicrous blacking of the experimental HST because it only had a single seat in the cab. The union demanded a second seat for a fireman and side windows in the GRP cab that meant a complete redesign.

What is happening with DOO is simply another example of progress being hindered by outdated union political point-scoring.

Have you ever driven an HST or ridden in the front of one for the purpose of route learning, or assessing / training? A seat on the bulkhead behind the driver is unsuitable for any of this - let alone the fact that second manning at full whack was mandatory until 1997 anyway.

Similarly unless you are 3 foot tall you will not see out of the window without bending down if you are stood.

And those side windows are rather convenient for the chaps at Great Western who need to be spot on when they stop at the SDO boards - or indeed as anyone who has ever had to propel power cars - or in fact any rolling stock backwards on a depot movements for reforms or whatnot, will know when they need to get a better appreciation of low speed, from looking out the side, than simply relying on a speedo and looking out of the (pointless in these cases) windscreen.
 

highdyke

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Your talking absolute rubbish, have you got any railway experience? My experience is driving both DOO and non-DOO trains so I'm more than aware of the rules that govern what is required to run DOO-P services just encase we go there....

If my GSM-R radio unit fails then the train cannot send a DSD message to the signaller immediately (remember, every second counts). When and if the signaller notices something is wrong, the signaller CANNOT contact the train through the GSM-R or PA system because the GSM-R unit isn't working.

Loads of experience with DOO thanks. So what's the procedures then when the signaller cannot you?
 

Antman

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No they couldn't and they did. Starting with the 1955 modernisation plan, through the Beeching cuts of 1960s, the rationalisation and loss of loco services for units of the 1970s-2000s and the replacement of older signalling systems with new doesn't count then?



No, its not. Its a protection of a safe system of working instead of bowing to corporate profit magins.



Wow, I hope your job gets replaced by a robot. Tell me where you work so I can come and laugh at you.

Aren't you over reacting slightly? I don't think anybody will be laughing at anybody who loses their job, although I believe there is a no redundancy guarantee anyway? And I suppose as far as you're concerned profits are a dirty word? I don't think anybody is in business purely for the fun of it.
 
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No they couldn't and they did. Starting with the 1955 modernisation plan, through the Beeching cuts of 1960s, the rationalisation and loss of loco services for units of the 1970s-2000s and the replacement of older signalling systems with new doesn't count then?



No, its not. Its a protection of a safe system of working instead of bowing to corporate profit magins.



Wow, I hope your job gets replaced by a robot. Tell me where you work so I can come and laugh at you.

The first rule of Capitalism is:

"If the same job can be done more cheaply with the same result, it will be"

I've been through corporate mergers and the threat of redundancy. It isn't pleasant. Under the current economic structure, those who hold the purse strings control everything.

If we want a different system of Government and railway operation, vote for the political party that will change things. If you're not willing to do that or if your preferred party don't win a majority in Parliament, allowing your union to put their fingers in their ears and close their eyes in the hope that it will all go away will do no-one any good in the long run.

Calling for industrial action to make commuters' lives just that bit harder won't win any friends there either. Someone already mentioned the Daily Mail, well the unions certainly know how to give that august publication plenty of ammunition to throw.
 

TheEdge

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Aren't you over reacting slightly? I don't think anybody will be laughing at anybody who loses their job, although I believe there is a no redundancy guarantee anyway? And I suppose as far as you're concerned profits are a dirty word? I don't think anybody is in business purely for the fun of it.

No, when the job keeps a roof over my head and food on my plate I don't think I'm over reacting when I get a bit angry when TOCs are trying to get rid of job to end up in the coffers of a handful of UK companies or SNCF, DB, NS or MTR...

The redundancy guarantee is a joke, there would be none today. But you can bet your bottom dollar the new contracts will be fixed term rolling ones that a year or so down the line won't be renewed. Profits are a dirty word when trying to up them is downright dangerous.

But I suppose you won't care until its you dragged under a train at Gatwick... :roll:
 

DarloRich

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Calling for industrial action to make commuters' lives just that bit harder won't win any friends there either. Someone already mentioned the Daily Mail, well the unions certainly know how to give that august publication plenty of ammunition to throw.

And of course people very much like you lap up the spin without question hoping everyone else is treated as badly as they are and so it goes on in a downward spiral to the lowest common denominator
 

FordFocus

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As to the issue itself. I've nothing but admiration for those fighting their corner, but life experience and history tells me it's a fight that will be lost. DOO will expand. Roles will be changed to reflect that. It's reassuring to hear there will be no compulsory redundancies on the back of current changes at GTR. I fully understand that may be different in a few years, but that is not untypical of any job in our current iteration of capitalist democracy.

I remember a while ago you were very for First Group having the DOO nonsense on the new GWR Hitachi trains that are coming into service. Weren't you using the term 'belligerent' towards striking workers on a regular basis? How you've changed your tune and now you have "nothing but admiration" for the the workers. Since ASLEF stated they will not accept DOO at West and HSS depots it's all gone very quiet with this..

The DOO proposals can be nipped in the bud. It's took many years but given the change of ASLEF leadership direction especially in light of many PTI incidents in the recent years it's a positive sign.

The TSGN franchise is too big IMHO and Govia have decided to open up many battlefronts with seperate staff grade backed up by that doughnut Peter Wilkinson.. I see GX has cancelled a few trains today because of 'traincrew shortages' :roll:
 
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No, when the job keeps a roof over my head and food on my plate I don't think I'm over reacting when I get a bit angry when TOCs are trying to get rid of job to end up in the coffers of a handful of UK companies or SNCF, DB, NS or MTR...

The redundancy guarantee is a joke, there would be none today. But you can bet your bottom dollar the new contracts will be fixed term rolling ones that a year or so down the line won't be renewed. Profits are a dirty word when trying to up them is downright dangerous.

But I suppose you won't care until its you dragged under a train at Gatwick... :roll:

I don't think anyone can be made to sign a new contract against their will. The employer would have to explain why the job they're currently doing is now redundant and offer either voluntary redundancy or the opportunity of the new position by signing the new contract.

Most jobs these days are on fixed-term contracts. Perhaps you'd prefer a permanent contract but on zero-hours rates?

This is how the real world works now.
 

highdyke

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And of course people very much like you lap up the spin without question hoping everyone else is treated as badly as they are and so it goes on in a downward spiral to the lowest common denominator

If technology and industry didn't move forward, we'd all still be on farms. I dare say the stagecoach owners, innkeepers and canal owners and employees weren't best happy in the early 19th century about railways.

It's a rather myopic view to be honest you have. Technological advancement affects us all, none of us know what jobs we will have in 10, 20, 50 years. For some it will work out. With any luck guards will be re-employed in retail on-board or as drivers, managers etc. This is better than many industries where you can be made redundant and never work again.
 

Don King

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I don't think anyone can be made to sign a new contract against their will. The employer would have to explain why the job they're currently doing is now redundant and offer either voluntary redundancy or the opportunity of the new position by signing the new contract.

Most jobs these days are on fixed-term contracts. Perhaps you'd prefer a permanent contract but on zero-hours rates?

This is how the real world works now.

I take it you are happy to pay for the tax credits, housing benefits, council accommodation, income support and so on then for all those people on zero hour and fixed term contracts then? Unstable work + ridiculous housing costs = expanding welfare state.
 

TheEdge

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Most jobs these days are on fixed-term contracts. Perhaps you'd prefer a permanent contract but on zero-hours rates?

This is how the real world works now.

So, it's a race to the bottom then? Because most places are fixed everyone needs to be? Workplaces that have not bent over backwards and have retained decent terms and conditions need to give it up?

How about trying to push for more permanent contracts elsewhere. Join a union maybe. I used to be like you, dinosaur unions just getting in the way. Then I joined the railway and the RMT, I wouldn't go to work now without a union for all the decent work that they do.
 
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