Southern DOO: ASLEF reject second agreement

Discussion in 'UK Railway Discussion' started by hornbyfan99, 1 Apr 2016.

  1. Barn

    Barn Established Member

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    This is a good point, and one which we should all remember, including sceptics of the strikes like me.

    It's easy to rationalise that, on one level, if a lack of guard cancels a train, a disabled person would not have been able to board it anyway, whereas with the OBS model at least the train can continue in normal service and reduce congestion.

    But I entirely appreciate that the uncertainty must be a real source of stress, anxiety and frustration, to the extent that it might reduce disabled travellers' confidence to take a job in London.

    Similar uncertainty has, after all, been the major cause of stress, anxiety and frustration in all commuters on the GTR network during the travails there and it would clearly be wrong to wish that on disabled travellers on a permanent basis.

    I think my only qualification to the above is that we should be happy to investigate all methods of dealing with the issue, including technological changes (automatic ramps, etc) and greater use of station staff.
     
    Last edited: 17 Feb 2017
  2. Fincra5

    Fincra5 Established Member

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    Well its a bit different staying near the cab.. to having to walk 3 coaches away to load a passenger. Drivers can't leave the cab active and walk away down the platform. Unfortunately you never know what kind of person might just gain access to the cab (etc etc).

    I also don't write the rulebook so can't answer why the German Operation on U-bahn is different to GB Rail.
     
  3. coppercapped

    coppercapped Established Member

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    Or the Munich S-Bahn?
     
  4. Dave1987

    Dave1987 Established Member

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    Ok so let's say that all trains are changed so there is a wheelchair area behind the driver at both ends with an accessible toilet, so you have two wheelchair areas and two accessible toilets, one at either end of the unit. What happens where drivers are required to change ends mid journey? How do you factor in the addition dwell times of the driver getting out of their cab, accessing the ramp etc and then getting back in their cab? What about platforms that tapper at the ends so there isn't the room to get a wheelchair off?
     
  5. 313103

    313103 Established Member

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    You are trying to compare one underground system in one German city against the whole national network in the UK, surely the comparison your looking for is one national network ie Germany against one national network ie UK.
     
  6. AlterEgo

    AlterEgo Established Member

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    Well, why not explain why, if the disabled area was placed behind the driver, that the driver couldn't perform that assistance 99% of the time on the GB national network?

    Of course, the driver currently has to secure his cab, etc, but on several Western European systems we've read now, that is not deemed necessary. It seems to be a mix of culture and risk appetite. Trains which have a large window into the cab from the passenger saloon don't exist on the GB network, but do elsewhere in Europe, which I have often ascribed to cultural differences.
     
  7. D1009

    D1009 Established Member

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    It's a hypothetical question. The disabled area isn't placed behind the driver on most British trains, and no-one is seriously suggesting that train drivers should regularly provide assistance to wheelchair users as far as I know.

    Is it beyond the power of man to design a wheelchair which can be easily moved on and off a train by the user without assistance, or alternatively fit trains with retractable ramps which could be monitored from the cab by CCTV?
     
  8. AlterEgo

    AlterEgo Established Member

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    Who knows?

    I wasn't seriously suggesting this was feasible in the next 10 years or so, but it's interesting to observe the cultural differences as well as the perception of the role of a driver.
     
  9. 455driver

    455driver Veteran Member

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    Where were the 'Guards' when this was going on?

    What line are you on?
     
  10. 455driver

    455driver Veteran Member

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    So where is the money saving if Southern are keep the OBS on the trains?
     
  11. SprinterMan

    SprinterMan Established Member

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    Fewer delay or cancellation fines from having to cancel trains if no guards are available.
     
  12. 455driver

    455driver Veteran Member

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    What are the current costs of all the trains currently cancelled because no guard is available?

    Why isnt there a guard available in the first place?
     
  13. WombatDeath

    WombatDeath Member

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    Could be they're on strike, or an incident somewhere has left staff in the wrong place. On the former point, I'd expect that reducing the ability of the RMT to shut down the network is one of the motivations for DOO.
     
  14. 455driver

    455driver Veteran Member

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    Apart from the ongoing dispute on Southern when was the last strike?
    You lot make it sound as if its a weekly occurrence! :roll:

    Its more likely to be because the company have not kept up with recruitment as guards have moved on or retired which I dont see as a valid reason to get rid of the grade, unlike some on here.
     
  15. infobleep

    infobleep Established Member

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    Lots of things are different in Europe. I Holland coffee shops allow people to buy and smoke certain substances. Do that here and you might get arrested. So the world is full of cultural differences.

    Just because it's culturally acceptable in one country doesn't mean it is in another or people even want it to be.
     
  16. 313103

    313103 Established Member

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    London Overground had up to August 2013 and from its inception in 2007 a total of 'ZERO' days lost to ANY industrial action on its network, even though on one other occasion we nearly did but that didnt occur.

    Even people on here get the impression the RMT is on strike every other day so they need their tails cutting, i had took two days strike action in 7 years at London Overground and since i have been with ATW i have had none. Yet the perception exists that we are a strike happy union, if that was the case i would be on strike on average once every other week over some trivial matter.
     
    Last edited: 17 Feb 2017
  17. infobleep

    infobleep Established Member

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    What about the cancellation costs due to lack of drivers? That affected both the Uckfield and Milton Keynes lines today.
     
  18. Chrisgr31

    Chrisgr31 Established Member

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    I believe they are the same drivers! Uckfield line and Marsh Line also suffering from a significant number of unit failures.
     
  19. IKB

    IKB Member

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    And cause you to miss your connection at Redhill? Perish the thought.....
     
  20. redbutton

    redbutton Member

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    It's interesting you would mention that. I recently had someone hold the doors because a wheelchair passenger wanted to get off. When I reported it to Control, they sent BTP to meet the train.

    Of course, by then I had already went and found platform staff myself. They assisted the passengers and I carried on with the journey. The responding officers didn't catch up with me until we reached the terminus anyway, at which point they and I shook our heads in disbelief.

    To be fair to Control, I'm not sure the reason for the door-holding was clear to them and they probably thought it was youths horsing around as they often do in that area, but I don't know for sure.
     
    Last edited: 18 Feb 2017

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