Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[Don King]

If technology and industry didn't move forward, we'd all still be on farms. I dare say the stagecoach owners, innkeepers and canal owners and employees weren't best happy in the early 19th century about railways.

It's a rather myopic view to be honest you have. Technological advancement affects us all, none of us know what jobs we will have in 10, 20, 50 years. For some it will work out. With any luck guards will be re-employed in retail on-board or as drivers, managers etc. This is better than many industries where you can be made redundant and never work again.

I shall look forward to the day that management consultants, PR agencies, and HR directors are offshored to Vietnam, or automated then. Makes a change for it always being the person at the bottom...

 

[The Box Photter]

And of course people very much like you lap up the spin without question hoping everyone else is treated as badly as they are and so it goes on in a downward spiral to the lowest common denominator

Quite the opposite in fact. I don't know what you mean by "...people like you...", but I assume you mean a thoughtful realist who has spent a lot of time using and enjoying trains over the last fifty-odd years.

There is a lot of garbage in the UK press about the railway.

I'm no fan of a race to the bottom in terms of employee rights and conditions, but the introduction of DOO, cab signalling and probably driverless trains is an inevitability.

The unions are attempting the equivalent of trying to stop a MGR going down the Lickey by standing in the four foot and holding their hand up.

 

[DarloRich]

So, it's a race to the bottom then? Because most places are fixed everyone needs to be? Workplaces that have not bent over backwards and have retained decent terms and conditions need to give it up?

How about trying to push for more permanent contracts elsewhere. Join a union maybe. I used to be like you, dinosaur unions just getting in the way. Then I joined the railway and the RMT, I wouldn't go to work now without a union for all the decent work that they do.

No one is interested in the good work they do for people though are they?
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Quite the opposite in fact. I don't know what you mean by "...people like you...", but I assume you mean a thoughtful realist who has spent a lot of time using and enjoying trains over the last fifty-odd years.

There is a lot of garbage in the UK press about the railway.

I'm no fan of a race to the bottom in terms of employee rights and conditions, but the introduction of DOO, cab signalling and probably driverless trains is an inevitability.

The unions are attempting the equivalent of trying to stop a MGR going down the Lickey by standing in the four foot and holding their hand up.

So your response is to simply give up and go home?

 

[The Box Photter]

I take it you are happy to pay for the tax credits, housing benefits, council accommodation, income support and so on then for all those people on zero hour and fixed term contracts then? Unstable work + ridiculous housing costs = expanding welfare state.

I've got no choice. I have income which is taxed on PAYE.

I didn't say I agree with fixed term contracts or tax credits that simply subsidise low-pay. I pay my share to the overall welfare pot, which I might have to call on someday myself. One of the reasons I commute each day is because I don't want to pay the ridiculous housing costs of London.

I believe in a fair day's pay for a fair day's work. As I've said, up to now, the railway unions have done a sterling job of protecting their members from the cuts in pay and benefits others have had to endure. Eventually, their bluff will be called, either by market forces or by technology.

Far better for the unions to look for ways their members can be redeployed if their current job is being phased out. Problem is that the unions intransigence is matched only by the Government's intransigence and we descend to an impasse which serves only to pit one worker against another, the rail workers against the commuter and other passengers.

 

[323235]

So why can't a passenger just pull an emergency chord and connect to a control centre, or fit technology that detects when a train has derailed and which vehicle? Or the retail staff use their GSM-R phone?

If the driver is incapacitated, and emergency alarm already sounds in the controlling box.

That's all well and good but a telephone, alarm and pushing a button can't evacuate a train quickly and safely when there are no emergency services on the scene. Have you not seen the DOO incidents where after hours of being stuck passengers have simply let themselves off the train of their own accord. At the end of the day in an emergency a driver can't deal with everything and everyone on a 4/8/12 car train, a guard can at least allow focus on one thing while the driver deals with another.
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This is probably a waste of breath and will just rile up my blood given my recent conductor duties...



With the incapacitated driver and with those in a position to do anything none the wiser to the incident?



So in a jucntion you could be absolutely sure you were not to step on or near (it will can arc in the right conditions) any 3rd rail equipment, maybe even insulated wiring. And in a situation where you may be near damaged 25kV you know of the danger posed by (or even the location or existence of) the red bond, or the return conductor, even a damaged stanchion earthing the current? Bearing in mind its not unknown for staff to be caught and injured by OHL.



You will, because you have a chance of avoiding a 10mph train, not a 125mph one. Lets say you are on a 4+ track mainline. Do you know which are the fast lines with no chance of avoiding an oncoming train as to the slows? Remembering the order can change.



The smartphone that indicates bi-directional lines? Or the one with access to freight and Q class trains? Is that the same phone on Railnet able to call the +81 numbers? Phoning 999 in most (especially rural) incidents won't help as it can be very hard to pinpoint a train. In absolute block areas it is nigh on impossible. Could you tell if you were protected by your own train or not? For your ill passenger do you know where the next suitable station is? Do you know "exactly" where you are? Do you call an ambulance to the immediate next station or the next major one? Can you tell where you are by glancing out of the window?



Because in the event of a serious incident it makes life far easier if people have a vague idea what to do.



I simply cannot be bothered to (for the second time this week) start trawling the RAIB and NR OIR reports where passengers have been dragged by DOO trains and they've not been spotted. Railway emergencies, especially safety of line can get out of hand very quickly if not properly dealt with. People being dragged by conductor operated trains are far rarer, infact I'm fairly sure the incident you refer to is the last serious incident of that type. Meanwhile in DOO land they keep happening but by nothing more than dumb luck no-one has died, so the safety stats look OK. Eliminating the conductor is not eliminating risk, its introducing it.

Let me finish the same way I did in a post in the earlier thread. I hope it isn't you or someone you love who is the incident that proves DOO isn't as safe as some want to believe.

The other point here is the poster also seems to rather worryingly believe that all passengers have the same knowledge as him on websites to view train schedules and what train runs on what line and which signal is where. The reality is passengers come with varying degrees of knowledge but a guard has the knowledge and skillset to deal with the situation and to assist the driver as required.

 

[The Box Photter]

That's all well and good but a telephone, alarm and pushing a button can't evacuate a train quickly and safely when there are no emergency services on the scene. Have you not seen the DOO incidents where after hours of being stuck passengers have simply let themselves off the train of their own accord. At the end of the day in an emergency a driver can't deal with everything and everyone on a 4/8/12 car train, a guard can at least allow focus on one thing while the driver deals with another.
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The other point here is the poster also seems to rather worryingly believe that all passengers have the same knowledge as him on websites to view train schedules and what train runs on what line and which signal is where. The reality is passengers come with varying degrees of knowledge but a guard has the knowledge and skillset to deal with the situation and to assist the driver as required.

If people are going to de-train themselves, do you really think the presence of a Guard would stop them?

 

[323235]

Yes people can do many things out of stress and panic because they think no one is in control. If they have a guard who has the necessary safety / route knowledge is able to take control of the situation and provide a planned evacuation more quickly it may prevent such a situation.

 

[highdyke]

Far better for the unions to look for ways their members can be redeployed if their current job is being phased out. Problem is that the unions intransigence is matched only by the Government's intransigence and we descend to an impasse which serves only to pit one worker against another, the rail workers against the commuter and other passengers.

Correct.

 

[exile]

We have far fewer signallers than we had a few decades ago, due to improvements in signalling systems. We don't have firemen. We don't have drivers at all on the DLR. We don't have shunters anywhere due to the lack of loose coupled freight trains. On buses, we don't have conductors (outside London). Offices no longer have typists and messengers as their jobs are now replaced by computers and email.

This is not to say DOO is automatically a good thing, or inevitable, but the unions need to come up with arguments based on safety, and backed up with statistics. ARE DOO trains more dangerous for the passenger?

 

[highdyke]

Yes people can do many things out of stress and panic because they think no one is in control. If they have a guard who has the necessary safety / route knowledge is able to take control of the situation and provide a planned evacuation more quickly it may prevent such a situation.

There are numerous cases were people have got out into the path of a train with guards on. An orderly evacuation in a serious accident is fantasy. The best thing is stop all traffic, signallers are best placed to do that as they control the railway.

 

[Agent_c]

There's procedures in place to deal with that, are you are of them, and what do they say?

I'm a passenger on a DOO only train with an incapacitated driver, and smashed GSM-R Unit. Why would I be aware of procedures? I'm too busy trying to get out of the train. I hope for my sake there isn't another one coming on that track along side me.

 

[Harbon 1]

If people are going to de-train themselves, do you really think the presence of a Guard would stop them?

No but a guard will be able to guide them to a position of safety rather than them sprawling over the running lines.

If you're going to say a passenger will know not to stand on the line and common sense will tell them to get off the running lines, how do they know which side will give them the most room from trains that may already be in the section or unable to stop. Someone with route knowledge will be able to tell them that those lines on the left side are actually sidings that are closed so there won't be any traffic there. Bonus, those sidings have no 3rd rail so are even safer for passengers to de-train into

As for electrification, not everyone knows what a third rail even is let alone where it is and what it looks like. A guard will.

Good luck to all the staff involved.

 

[jon91]

Quite how you expect the signallers to know if there's been a derailment I don't know, will they have to be qualified as clairvoyants?

GSM-R coverage can be patchy and as far as I know there's no indication given to the signaller if the radio unit goes dark whilst the train is in a section.

All of Highdyke's arguments thus far seem to have focused on shifting responsibilities to other staff who already have high workloads, can see that going down well...

 

[highdyke]

I'm a passenger on a DOO only train with an incapacitated driver, and smashed GSM-R Unit. Why would I be aware of procedures? I'm too busy trying to get out of the train. I hope for my sake there isn't another one coming on that track along side me.

We're taking about operating procedures, what are they? Passenger information is displayed just inside the train.
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Quite how you expect the signallers to know if there's been a derailment I don't know

How do you think signallers know if there has been a derailment?

 

[Harbon 1]

We're taking about operating procedures, what are they? Passenger information is displayed just inside the train.

Which with the best will in the world no one reads unless they're stood next to it. Are you expecting evacuating passengers to stand and read the procedures through fully?

 

[highdyke]

GSM-R coverage can be patchy and as far as I know there's no indication given to the signaller if the radio unit goes dark whilst the train is in a section.

http://www.rssb.co.uk/Library/impro...-mobile-user-procedures-ns-gsm-r-ops-0514.pdf

Page 63, read and learn.
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Which with the best will in the world no one reads unless they're stood next to it. Are you expecting evacuating passengers to stand and read the procedures through fully?

No. But nor do I expect them to take notice of guards.

 

[Antman]

Which with the best will in the world no one reads unless they're stood next to it. Are you expecting evacuating passengers to stand and read the procedures through fully?

No most passengers wouldn't read it just as they wouldn't take much notice of a guard in the unlikely event of an emergency.

 

[Agent_c]

Which with the best will in the world no one reads unless they're stood next to it. Are you expecting evacuating passengers to stand and read the procedures through fully?

Dear Passenger, to maximise your enjoyment of your emegency evacuation, please be sure to read the following 10pt font messages that go on and on... No matter how scary the fire is, don't leave until you you've read the entire A2 Sheet...

 

[razor89]

Which with the best will in the world no one reads unless they're stood next to it. Are you expecting evacuating passengers to stand and read the procedures through fully?

Indeed. We've got one poster claiming a guard could not stop passengers self evacuating, and another claiming an inconspicuous safety sign could!

Its all missing the point though. Even if a guard cannot stop passengers evacuating onto the running line, they can at least see that they have done so and get traffic stopped/ power off to avoid any casualties/ fatalities. How exactly can a signaller know to do this if the driver is incapacitated but the train is not derailed and there is no other staff on board?

 

[Agent_c]

No most passengers wouldn't read it just as they wouldn't take much notice of a guard in the unlikely event of an emergency.

When a person in clear authority is shouting at you, you listen.

 

[Harbon 1]

How do you think signallers know if there has been a derailment?

Without working in the operational side of the industry my best guess is its the drivers that tell them, and track circuit clips.

In the case of the cow derailment, that involved running down the line to the next signal because the derailment caused the radio to trip. A track circuit failure can mean a lot of things not just a derailment.

 

[theblackwatch]

Driver Only Operation was introduced on the 'GOBLIN' (Gospel Oak-Barking) route a couple of years ago. Have there been any incidents on the route as a result of this? If so, this is what needs to be highlighted by the Unions. If there haven't been any, then - unfortunately - I can see the argument for looking into DOO in other areas (which doesn't necessarily mean the implementation of).

 

[Harbon 1]

No most passengers wouldn't read it just as they wouldn't take much notice of a guard in the unlikely event of an emergency.

As Agent_C says, if someone is shouting at you who knows what they're doing, nine times out of ten, people will listen.

 

[highdyke]

When a person in clear authority is shouting at you, you listen.

What if he is in coach 12 of an 11 coach train and his coach is on it's side, and 1/4 of a mile back down the track Hither Green style?
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Without working in the operational side of the industry my best guess is its the drivers that tell them, and track circuit clips.

In the case of the cow derailment, that involved running down the line to the next signal because the derailment caused the radio to trip. A track circuit failure can mean a lot of things not just a derailment.

Well there's more ways than that, let's see if people can list them..Especially Guards.

 

[Antman]

When a person in clear authority is shouting at you, you listen.

Oh come on for goodness sake, many people have very little respect for the police nowadays let alone anybody else in authority.

In most cases it would be safer to remain on the train anyway but if it was necessary to evacuate how is the guard going to be able to control everyone?

 

[Harbon 1]

What if he is in coach 12 of an 11 coach train and his coach is on it's side, and 1/4 of a mile back down the train Hither Green style?

Then you've got someone sat up front who also knows what to do who will have by the time he's left the cab alerted the signalman and gotten all the approaching traffic stopped.
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Oh come on for goodness sake, many people have very little respect for the police nowadays let alone anybody else in authority.

In normal circumstances then less people will, but when people find themselves on a derailed train and don't always know what to do, they will listen to someone who does.

 

[highdyke]

Then you've got someone sat up front who also knows what to do who will have by the time he's left the cab alerted the signalman and gotten all the approaching traffic stopped.

I will also accept anything that invokes the examination of the line instructions.

 

[Harbon 1]

I will also accept anything that invokes the examination of the line instructions.

I like how this (as well as some of your earlier posts) has become a quiz....:roll:

A guards role is the safety of the passengers and his train, to be safety trained they will know the procedures for alerting the box in the case of anything untoward.

 

[razor89]

http://www.rssb.co.uk/Library/impro...-mobile-user-procedures-ns-gsm-r-ops-0514.pdf

Page 63, read and learn.

From page 63:

If transmission of the DSD alarm message fails,
the cab radio will try again up to two times, after
which time an appropriate failure message will
be displayed.

It's good to know that our incapacitated driver will at least receive an error message when his GSM-R set fails to contact the signaller for him...

 

[highdyke]

I like how this (as well as some of your earlier posts) has become a quiz....:roll:

Nothing like a quiz to test the knowledge of bull****ers
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From page 63:



It's good to know that our incapacitated driver will at least receive an error message when his GSM-R set fails to contact the signaller for him...

What will the signaller get and what does he do?